First conversion kit

[Jensah]

Hello!
Closing in on making my first ebike and need some more advice before i take the plunge.
I would like to keep it under 700 euros but its not set in Stone.
My bike is a crosshybrid hardtail front suspension with 700c wheels.
As for commuting i dont need a ton of range but Id like to get 25 km with assist. A couple of moderate size hills and i would like to be able to take it for a spin in the forest every once in a while. As for speed i dont think ill need more then like 40kph or so.
What om looking at right now is https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32825...lgo_pvid=b41de261-49b1-49d5-9071-7dde5f48518e
Or a bafang 500w hubmotor (not the new small version i think) or possibly a bbs02.
I dont mind a bit of work to get it running as long as its something i can do myself with some research.
As for a battery im looking at
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32966...spm=a2g1y.12024536.productList_12778766.pic_2
Any advice would be highly appreciated!

 

[markz]

Geared hubs will make a noise more so then a direct drive.
Are you looking for any kind of assist or do you want throttle only action
As for the hills, how long are they and at what grade?

If you want complete silence from the motor, then you want a direct drive with a sinewave controller.

Mid drives are good for lots of hills, and lots of stop and go. They also make a lot of noise.

Yes people do hear the noise from the motors when your behind them, they always turn around and look whereas a direct drive, they have no clue and wont hear a thing unless you ring your little bicycle bell.

Direct Drive Motor from Leafbike - https://www.leafbike.com/
If you are going way of the MAC geared motor, then www.ebikes.ca (Vancouver Canada) or www.em3ev.com (China) are your one stop shops because they have excellent customer service, and you know you are buying a quality battery!

Click on TOOLS at https://www.leafbike.com/
then TRIP SIMULATOR (BETA)
Go down to Chart Options and Input Type, select Google Maps
Zoom out, move over to where you are on this great planet of ours, Zoom in and right click your starting point, then right click your ending point, THEN Move the route (blue line) and keep doing it for every part that is off. When done click on the X to close the small window.

Select Motor, yes lots of motors to choose from, 9C generic direct drive in different windings, MXUS, etc. Leave everything else alone.
Vehicle Parameters, MTB Upright, then enter your weight, how much extra pedaling you will be doing in watts, if you are half assing it, say 50W, actually pedaling 100W, given 'errrrrrrrrr 200W or 250W. Wheel diamter 29" for 700C, speed limit of 40kph which is plenty!, headwind always is when riding right, guess at that.
Battery, here you want the voltage (speed) you will be riding and the amp-hour (gas tank)
Controller would be 20A for a small, low power, 35 and 40A for a higher power unit.

Go back to Chart Options, Second Graph, I like to put that as a Slope (% Grade)

 

[d8veh]

I'm not sure I agree that DD motors are quieter than geared ones. With a sine wave controller, most hub-motors are at least as quiet as the average DD ones, if not more so.

Before deciding on a kit, you need to get the basics right. Do you know about the regulations in Sweden. Electric bicycles have t comply with EN15194, which means a motor rated at no more than 250W and 25 km/h max assistance speed. DO you want to comply with the regulations?

Next is your choice of bike. It doesn’t really make sense to put a relatively heavy kit into a light weight bike with thin tyres. You can get quite good power and speed from much lighter kits that keep your bike handling like a bicycle. You have to consider that a 500w kit will double your average speed from when you didn't have the kit, so your brakes will have to dissipate four times as much energy - maybe 5 times when you add the weight of the kit too. Rim brakes are going to get overwhelmed. Hydraulic brakes would be recommended.

When you add a kit, especailly a relatively heavy one, most of the advantages of your good quality light bike are completely negated, so a heavier stronger donor bike would make much more sense.

I'm making some assumptions about your bike because all you've given us is hybrid with 700c wheels.

Some of the stuff recommended above is going to be relatively expensive if you live in Sweden.

 

[dogman dan]

Nothing wrong with those choices you linked to. But do be aware that a cheap battery could be more likely to catch fire while charging. So charge it outside the house, or garage.

Don't worry about gear noise, its only very noisy when going very fast. The rest of the ride, you will enjoy being able to coast better. Geared usually most efficient for city riding, because they lose less energy when there is a lot of starts and stops. Few motors of either type, geared hub, direct drive hub, or mid drive are really silent. But with all, at speeds above 20k or so, the wind in your ears gets just as loud, or louder at full speed. So you don't hear that much noise anyway.

DD starts to shine better, when you ride 20 miles or more on open roads with few stops.


Re the bike, you may want to put a fatter tire on it once you have the motor, if you are running a very skinny tire. It should be quite possible to run a wide enough tire on that bike. Just choose a tire with some tread, vs a racing slick.


But on the other hand, a lead heavy beach cruiser with 7 speeds makes a damn fine commuter. Comfy, fat tires, fender, strong frame, and able to carry heavy loads in panniers. You just might think hard about a steel cruiser for your e bike.

 

[Chalo]

Rim brakes are going to get overwhelmed. Hydraulic brakes would be recommended.

Not true. Weak or poor condition rim brakes might be a problem, just like weak or slightly contaminated disc brakes. But good rim brakes will stand the bike on its nose, just like good mechanical discs or good hydraulic discs. After that, more braking force is useless and unwanted.

Cable actuated brakes won't leave you out there with no braking at all, like hydraulics will if the hoses get a little tug on them. For this reason, hydraulic brakes become a worse idea the farther you get from home base. They're not field serviceable like cable brakes.

 

[Chalo]

If you want complete silence from the motor, then you want a direct drive with a sinewave controller.

Mid drives are good for lots of hills, and lots of stop and go. They also make a lot of noise.

My BBS02 is a lot quieter than my direct drive Crystalyte 5305 hub. It surprised me how quiet.

 

[kcuf]

bbsxx use sine wave controllers

 

[Chalo]

bbsxx use sine wave controllers

Ah, I see.

Another thing that might be relevant to the OP: Even though both kinds of retrofit are pretty easy, I found the BBS02 to be easier to install than a hub motor with proper torque arms. And afterwards, it's much easier to deal with flat tires or wheel truing, because they're just regular bike wheels.

 

[markz]

If you want complete silence from the motor, then you want a direct drive with a sinewave controller.

Mid drives are good for lots of hills, and lots of stop and go. They also make a lot of noise.

My BBS02 is a lot quieter than my direct drive Crystalyte 5305 hub. It surprised me how quiet.

I havent heard it but I did talk to someone outside a grocery store who said the HD's were quiet, or maybe he had the 02, but without comparison I take your word!

 

[Fastwanabe]

I have a DD, BBS02 and BBSHD(ish). After using all three I would say that the mids are what I prefer for a few reasons and some where already mentioned.

1 Mid don't make it diff for flats or adjustments.
2 Mid are quieter than the DD I have...even when run on the same PHASERUNNER.
3 In my situation the suspension is much softer due to the weight on the frame and not on the wheel itself.

 

[Jensah]

Thanks for all the replies!
Im aware the kit im looking for isnt road legal but for the road im going im not too worried about that.
the bike i have is https://www.cykelkraft.se/crescent-...unner&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pricerunner a swedish site but you can make out some specs like alu frame mechanical disc brakes and such, it has some semiwide tires, 40-622 if that says anything.

im not too concerned about noise as long as its not too loud when cruising slowly.

mid drives could definitely be interesting too, i can see bbs02 and tsdz2 fits within my budget. Does the torquesensing on the tsdz2 make a big difference when riding? Theres a decent probability ill end using the throttle more then pedalassist eventually aswell :wink:

ive heard mid drives causes some wear on the drivetrain, what would this generally mean on lets say riding 20 kms 3-4 times a week on relatively flat ground?

 

[markz]

Im aware the kit im looking for isnt road legal

No need to worry about that!
Could have a 8kw kit and still be fine. Its like going 1 over the speed limit, or 100.... just dont be doing wheelies and pissing families off while on the pathways.

 

[raylo32]

Lots of good info here... I like the mids because it keeps wheel weight down, allows easier flat fixing, and you have the gears for climbing. I chose the TSDZ2 for the torque sensing that makes the rideability like a regular bike... pedal harder=go faster, although the Bafang range with PAS has been around awhile and is very popular. Fine speed control with those will be a little more challenging. My mid drive is very quiet with the stock plastic gear. As for speed, it really depends on where you are coming from. As a serious cyclist I don't necessarily ride a lot faster on my e-bike, I just don't get sweaty. It is a transport tool not a workout... and at these regular bicycle speeds (~40kph) the cable v-brakes are more than up to the task.

 

[d8veh]

Here's my opinion on some of the above comments based on around 15000 ebike miles and a few years doing all the repairs in an electric bike shop.

Hub motors, especially the geared ones, are generally a lot more reliable than mid motors as long as you don't do stupid things with them like running them at four times the rated power. I know lots of people that fitted a mid motor, and I can't think of any of them that didn't need to open their motor to do a repair at some point. Also, you're right about the wear and other problems you get on the drive train. It's not a massive problem, but with a hub-motor, your drive train will last virtualy forever because you reduce the stress on it, but a mid motor will typically quadruple it. With a hub motor, you can normally still get home if your gears jam, chain snaps or crank arm comes loose, but chances are you'll have to push or carry a bike with a mid motor.

Punctures are not a problem on hub-motor bikes because you don't normally have to take the wheel off to fix a them, and if you fit puncture resistant tyres, like Schwalbe Marathon Plus, you will probably never get a puncture. I'm up to 6000 miles without punctures since I fiitted mine. Before that, I used to get about one puncture per week on average.

Also, I wouldn't get a torque sensor motor for commuting, especially the Tongsheng, because you have to press the pedals fairly hard to get maximum power, while as you only need to turn the pedals without any effort with a Bafang. Torque sensor is better for off-road riding where you need more precise control. A throttle is very useful on a commuter bike, not to use all the time, but there are always circumstances when the instant go without pedalling is desirable. One time, I had an accident and couldn't pedal afterwards, but I was able to use the throttle to cruise home.

 

[dogman dan]

My impression of mid drives I tested at Interbike was that they made about the same noise as geared motors. This was some years ago now, so I think then may not have had sinewave controllers.

But what I thought I was hearing was the internal gears rather than the motor itself, one mid drive I tested was more like a hubmotor mounted into the bottom bracket, and that one was dead silent.

The OP never mentioned noise though. RE the 5305, mine is noisy too on starts too. Big powerful motor, so starting up it grunts pretty good. But at 15 mph, just about dead silent. A tiny zzzt noise at speed, no doubt caused by cheap controller. With hubmotors, if one wrap of wind is a bit looser, it will vibrate a lot, and you get a motor that grunts a lot. Most just growl a tiny bit, but some will grunt a lot.


Re the flats, d8veh must ride in a nice clean city. Mine is plagued by construction workers that tow flat bed trailers covered with loose nails, screws, or scrap metal going to be recycled. I've had brand new tires ruined in less than 8 miles twice! The road is literally paved with screws and bent nails. The front wheel hits them, tipping them up just right to nail the sidewall of a rear tire. Other times, I go the lifespan of the tread with no problems. Its just completely random. The only defenses I have come up with so far, are going out with a broom on the routes I ride daily, cleaning up the known trouble spots. This is usually at the stop sign, where the nails fall off the flatbed as they start off. The other defense is riding so damn slow you can see the nails, and swerve. At 30 mph, I just get flats constantly from giant screws and nails. The small stuff slime can handle, but the framing nail bent into a U shape, kills the tire every time.

 

[d8veh]

Re the flats, d8veh must ride in a nice clean city. Mine is plagued by construction workers that tow flat bed trailers covered with loose nails, screws, or scrap metal going to be recycled. I've had brand new tires ruined in less than 8 miles twice! The road is literally paved with screws and bent nails. The front wheel hits them, tipping them up just right to nail the sidewall of a rear tire. Other times, I go the lifespan of the tread with no problems. Its just completely random. The only defenses I have come up with so far, are going out with a broom on the routes I ride daily, cleaning up the known trouble spots. This is usually at the stop sign, where the nails fall off the flatbed as they start off. The other defense is riding so damn slow you can see the nails, and swerve. At 30 mph, I just get flats constantly from giant screws and nails. The small stuff slime can handle, but the framing nail bent into a U shape, kills the tire every time.

Did you try Marathon Plus? I never believed the hype until I fitted them. Look at this. It didn’t puncture the tube:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/do-puncture-resistant-tires-work.20489/

 

[kcuf]

1000s miles on many bbsxx drives no faults

practical power limits much different than hub motors

apply hub power applications and suffer failures

observe continuous power rating trouble free service

rear hub motor very weak imperfect bicycle wheel

troublesome to repair spokes flats

tailored for only one bike fitment

bbsxx readily adapt install to different bicycle platforms

enjoy strong spare wheel sets

never use worn chain sprockets last very long time

 

[Lee30]

I built my bike for £850. It does the job. I am still riding it after 4 years.

 

[2old]

How often do you check the dropouts on that fork? IMO, you've been lucky.

 

[SlowCo]

Looks like it's a cheap steel suspension fork. Which would be positive with the torque on the dropouts.