Fully charged battery, stuttering problems Q100H @48V

[Hunza]

After reading the positive experiences with the Q100H36V@48V I decided to install this configuration too. I bought the BMSBattery
48V11.6Ah Bottle-09 Panasonic Battery Pack (20A sin wave controller & S-LCD3) and their 260rpm version of the Q100H 36V350W Front Driving EBike Hub Motor. As this is a plug-and-play configuration it is hard to make any mistakes.

I'm very pleased with this configuration except......I have one big problem. When the battery is loaded at 54,4V I have stuttering problems beginning after a few minutes of biking. First you feel some light stuttering and then at 1.8-2.4 km distance the motor watts are going down to zero and then the motor retakes shortly every time again. The longer I wait after stopping the bike the longer I can bike before the problem comes back. Once the battery becomes below 50V things are going better...once arrived below 48V the motor works fine. The motor and the controller are not warmed up. It happens at every PAS level and also in the cruise control mode.

I presumed my controller was thinking I had a 36V battery, so I discharged the capacitor of the controller by shorting the contact points on the cradle and I restarted the system. At that time the battery was at 50V and the problems were over by then. Unfortunately the problems came back in the next battery cycle (loaded up to 54,5V).

Riding with the throttle only (P3=0) didn't help. Playing with the C5 Controller Maximum Current Adjustment Mode had no effect neither. I repeatedly checked all Julet connections if they were tightly connected.

When I close the LCD3 while pedalling and even when I take out the battery while pedalling, often (but not always) I feel firm resistance, it feels like the resistance of a powerful dynamo...Playing with the values 0 and 1 of C13 ABS brakes of the controller and parameters of anti-charge control had no effect.


default BMSB--- my settings (effect of other settings on stuttering above 48V)
p1 214---218 (@ 160,202,214,220 no effect)
p2 1----1 (@ 0, 2,3,4,5 and 6 no effect)
p3 1----1 (@ 0, no effect)
p4 0----0
p5 12---12 (@ 2,15 and 53, no effect)

c1 02---01 ( I changed as the BMSB PAS sensor received only had 8 magnets, @ 02, no effect) 
c2 0----0 (@ 1, no effect)
c3 3----3 (@ 0, 1,2 and 4 no effect)
c4 0----0
c5 10---10 (@ 03 and 09, no effect)
c6 3----3
c7 1----1
c8 0----0
c9 0----0
c10 n----n
c11 0----0
c12 4----4
c13 0----0 (@ 1, no effect)
c14 2----2 (@ 1 and 3, no effect)

Any advice is appreciated.


ps: I noticed P5 can go up to 64. (I think it was less in the past). After P5=48 the battery bar starts to function (at p5=12 or 15 the bar remains full all the time) ...at P5=53 the battery bar works fine...

 

[docw009]

Your LCD P and C settings are about the same as what I use.

Regen braking does not work on a geared motor like the Q100H, but you occasionally are getting drag without the battery. On a direct drive, that would indicate the motor going into regen mode from a short circuit in phase wires. The Q100H has a clutch and should be freewheeling. At the same time, if the clutch were stuck engaged, how is that related to voltage? Maybe it's a sticky clutch.

If you had not mentioned the above symptom, it would be easier to make a long distance diagnosis that you should ask for a controller replacement. Keep the battery and install the new controller board.

 

[Hunza]

It's weird, without pushing at PAS 5 my speed is appr. 40-41 km (so even slightly more then expected) but the moment I stop pedalling (at every pas level) you can feel the system starts to "brake".

Possibly my system is not that stable at all, with cruise control at flatland my motor watts are fluctuating importantly .....but maybe that's normal.

[youtube]fbs1p8OzpRA[/youtube]

 

[neptronix]

You have probably ran into the eRPM limit of that controller, which is why it stutters more at higher voltages.

Another tipoff that eRPM is too high is that the throttle will feel like an on/off switch. Thats the first sign that a controller cant keep up with the motor on 48v.

These dual reduction hub motors really need a controller that can operate at stupid high speeds ( 50,000 erpm and beyond ). I would suggest one of the fancy FOC phaserunners or perhaps a kelly controller with the high speed option.

I asked BMSbattery for a 320rpm wind of the q128h last year and they told me it couldnt be done because they dont have a controller that can handle it. Id estimate that on 48v, your motor spins well over 300rpm... So thats a hint!

 

[docw009]

I have a 20" bike with the 260rpm Q100H and external KT 36/48SVPRD sine wave controller from PSWpower. On 52V, it free spins at 25 mph and max speed is around 22 mph on 20" wheels. So the wheels turn at 336 rpm. Wow, with internal gearing of 12.6, that's over 4000 rpm for the motor?

I have never tried to sustain high speeds though. The above is only long enough for the bike to max out. Normally run at bike speeds and I have run for several hours on 52V. Normally use 36V though. Max speed drops to 18 mph.

For Hunza, I would make sure his motor is always free wheeling. It will have resistance backwards as the clutch is engaged, but should be free to turn several revolutions if he spins it forward. There's always a lot of force needed to turn the axle with the fingers, but with a tire/wheel mounted it should spin easy with wheels lifted. Should have no drag at all when pedaling.

 

[Hunza]

Thanks all for your contributions.

docw009 in another thread you mentioned that I should consider the filter capacitors. If they were only rated for 50V like most 36V controllers, they would lose their ability to filter at high voltage.

Tonight I opened the controller and noticed .....two 50V capacitors.
Could that be the reason I have stuttering problems above 50V battery charge?

I'm wondering what kind of capacitors the others have in their 48V11.6Ah Bottle-09 Panasonic Battery Pack (20A sin wave controller & S-LCD3)

Could it be BMSBattery provided by accident a 36V controller?

 

[docw009]

BMSBattery owes you a new controller board, and maybe a little something extra for your trouble.

 

[Hunza]

Thanks for your reaction.

Meanwhile I noticed two other capacitors (the black ones) were 50V too. Elsewhere it was written this controller should have 63V capacitors ....I will ask BMSBattery to provide a replacing Bottle-09 battery case carrier mounting with a 48V controller included.

The other issue of the resistance is still there. If I freewheel (and/or have the bike upside down), the wheel spins without noticeable resistance forward. Going backwards you can see there is some light resistance. When I start to bike there is a firm resistance, it doesn't stop even after a few kilometers of biking. Taking off the battery and the controller has no effect. Could it be the wrong controller caused that issue or is it an other deficiency?

 

[docw009]

Now that I see the pics, that won't be easy to replace. Even if they include the molded connectors on the controller,
you still have to solder in the power connectors. Cannot expect customers to do that. A good outfit would replace the whole battery.

 

[Hunza]

I'll contact BMSB and ask for a replacement Q100H motor and a replacement battery case carrier mounting with a 48V controller included.

Given the trustworthy reputation BMSBattery has, I presume it will do it's best to overcome the problems arisen.

 

[neptronix]

Surprising that the 50v caps havent blown!

Resistance from the motor is probably normal due to the fact that most dual reduction motors have the clutch at the motor instead of at the gears. So, no matter what direction the motor spins, there are 2 sets of gears adding some drag.. unlike with 1 stage reduction geared motors.

I have my doubts you will get much from bmsbattery. I would just order a high eRPM capable controller and be done with it. Unless you wanna pay return shipping to china.

 

[Hunza]

I have been carefully biking, only using the throttle until I was up to at least 60% of maximum speed and only allowing the speed to be below 1/2 of the "No-load" motor speed for short moments. Furthermore most of the time I biked with the 18A setting and I only made flatland trips so far. Mostly biking at PAS level 3 my motor watts went up to appr. 350 Watt, occasionally I tried PAS level 6 for a short time (appr. 650-750 Watt on the average). Having said theses, often when I took of the battery of the case holder I smelled a strange odor that I couldn't place.

My observations are not corresponding to the positive experiences of other users having the Q100H260RPM@48V. For the moment I only can assume the, by mistake provided, 36V controller in this 48V11.6Ah Bottle-09 Panasonic Battery Pack caused the problems.

 

[Hunza]

I finally learned the controller received was a 36V type. BMSBattery provided for free a replacement 48V controller. Things work fine now! No more stuttering.

I also ordered a second Q100H 260 RPM motor, I learned this motor has the same resistance (problems). Possibly I have to live with that.

 

[knutselmaaster]

That resistance isn't normal. Q100h motors should spin (almost) freely. Have you installed a disc brake? If so, it might be that the screws are too long, making them touch a spinning part inside the motor. Unscrew and check for marks at the end of the screws. When the motor gets warm, it gets worse. File off a bit of the screws or replace with shorter ones to solve it.