FYI: Green wheel turns pedal bike into electric hog

GCinDC

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Anyone heard of this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29259226/

claims:
battery in motor
40,000 mile life
25 mile range
30 mph
wireless accelerator

"Once the optimal configuration of power, speed and cost is determined the team hopes to begin large scale production"
 
30mph ---check

25 miles ---check

25 miles at 30 mph? ----uhh they don't exactly say that do they?

Still pretty cool though for sure, I just hate this convention or not giving range AT a certian speed. And my favorite, pedaling your ass off hauling an extra 30 pounds that does you no good greatly extends the range. :roll: And pedaling your ass off to charge it? :shock: Oh sure, it can be done, but I'd rather just tie a brick to my bike and drag it.
 
Yes, but what batteries could be so small to live in THAT hub, and last that long...?

"You'll have to replace the bike before you replace the batteries," Lin told Discovery News.

edit: nevermind... just reread it:
Besides cutting carbon emissions, the GreenWheel is also made from environmentally friendly processes by companies like A123 Systems, which manufactures the lithium ion batteries used in the GreenWheel.

green-wheel-540x380.hmedium.jpg
 
Despite being very skeptical about the claims made about performance/cost, I'd really love to see the insides to see how they're packaging all of the components, especially when the hub only appears to be about the size of a Clyte 4xx. I'd really like to know... Are the batteries in the middle of the hub or along the perimeter? And what's the voltage/capacity? Where's the controller? BMS? I assume the motor is brushless and gearless, but maybe not(?).

I really like the idea of the wireless throttle.

I know many of us are really into customization and modularity, but if this type of design could be done reasonably well without being super expensive, it could really do a lot to broaden the appeal of ebikes. You wouldn't have to worry about mounting batteries, routing cables, etc. Just swap out the wheel and you're ready to roll.

My favorite claim is about cost. It's only going to cost "several hundred dollars." Riiggghhhttt.
 
Nice, a123's inside, but they bash kits that cost $1200, and think thiers will be cheaper with a123's inside? Be nice to get them cells as cheap as they did.
 
jsmay311, here's another pic. but why the holes/openings in the hub? dumb me: wouldn't that let water in?:
biking2-enlarged.jpg

from:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/biking-1010.html

more research, from http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/mit-bringing-sm.html, someone else's thinking, fyi:
If these batteries (I count 16) are A123 26650 cells then you would have a 13,2 V / 9.2 Ah battery pack (4S4P), capable of helping the bike at 120 Watt, during 1 hour. That is a serious amount of "push" and could make a daily 16 kilometer (10 mile) commute a lot easier. The battery would weigh just 1 kilo / 2 pounds.
 
I think they need the vents to cool the batteries. It seems like they could get awfully hot in there.

The wireless throttle is interesting as well, but it's just another thing that needs batteries.
 
About letting water in.........Did ya see (Youtube) the new E-maxx advertise the waterproof controller the RC truck goes in to a giant puddle up to its roof and just keeps going........? Which of course just made all 3 of mine obsolete......
 
Ben said:
I think they need the vents to cool the batteries. It seems like they could get awfully hot in there.

The wireless throttle is interesting as well, but it's just another thing that needs batteries.

GCinDC said:
jsmay311, here's another pic. but why the holes/openings in the hub? dumb me: wouldn't that let water in?:
biking2-enlarged.jpg

from:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/biking-1010.html

more research, from http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/10/mit-bringing-sm.html, someone else's thinking, fyi:
If these batteries (I count 16) are A123 26650 cells then you would have a 13,2 V / 9.2 Ah battery pack (4S4P), capable of helping the bike at 120 Watt, during 1 hour. That is a serious amount of "push" and could make a daily 16 kilometer (10 mile) commute a lot easier. The battery would weigh just 1 kilo / 2 pounds.
I don't think the vents are there specifically for the batteries, though it certainly would cool them whilst the bike was moving in warm weather. In fact, I would be surprised if the batteries are not isolated from the rest of the components with a dipped epoxy coating or some waterproofing method, as these would be what I would be afraid of getting wet. Especially considering their position on the perimeter and the effect of centrifugal force in this area.

The A123 cells do not get so hot in normal use to *require* any cooling. At least not on my bike and they are in a plastic case, packed tightly together and even shrink wrapped!

Yes, the vents will let the water in to the hub, BUT it will let it back out as well. I think the venting serves three purposes, not to trap water, help dry the insides while using or setting and cooling air for components.. Being brushless, I think it should work good this way. Especially with centrifugal force, the heat and the air from the vents, it probably dries quick and has no chance to develop corrosion. Unless you put it away wet outside in a rainstorm. Otherwise, I think it would dry up. This is a problem with Crystalyte motors, they trap water, then this creates rust and then failure. You can read about this at ebikes.ca. They claim this is their biggest headache keeping up on customer support for these motors. They even have some photos if I am not mistaken, showing a waterline of rust inside a unit.

Also, the charger, controller and the winding in this motor need the ventilation I am sure, as they do shed a lot of heat. Again, on my eBike, these components get hot and either have heat sinks or are connected to a good mass of metal to transfer heat. The plastic case on my cheap on board chargers have even warped from heat. So, I leave the battery case open during use to get some air movement.

So, as a good engineer, (and if you can get into MIT you are a GOOD engineer) he will provide that function and at the same time reduce weight. I have found when working with electric motors, they can get wet. I even have seen them run underwater at 480 volts. Water is a poor conductor. But, I have seen trapped water corrode and destroy a motor. We now always drill a hole in the motor lead cover to let water out as we gave up trying to stop it coming in.

I also assume this motors innards are epoxy coated or something of that nature. I would be more concerned about the contaminants in the water from the street such as road salts and fertiliser-another salt. But, maybe you can actually hose this thing out! :lol: :wink:
 
Looks like 16 cells there in that hub, so 48v 2AH...should get it about 2.5 miles at 30mph! To go 30 mph we all know you need a hubmotor bigger than that, at that size it will be getting verry hot surrounded as it is by cells!
 
Jozzer said:
Looks like 16 cells there in that hub, so 48v 2AH...should get it about 2.5 miles at 30mph! To go 30 mph we all know you need a hubmotor bigger than that, at that size it will be getting verry hot surrounded as it is by cells!

It must be a geared hub, so 30mph is reasonable. Being geared explains the vents (at least to me), as I see the lack of a good thermal connection from the motor to the exterior shell to be a weakness of geared hubs that prevents stretching their performance.

My question is what are those 8 plates forming the octagon?

John
 
I wonder what sort of patents TidalForce, and now EMS+ bikes, has regarding batteries in bike wheels. Their design has the cells in the front hub, I wonder if their patent covers both wheels.

Was there any comment on watts this thing draws? 48v2.3a is 110 watts hours; at the stated 30 mile no-pedal range they would be drawing 3.68whpm ( :shock: ) at 100%DOD. Even if that motor was 100% efficient all the time, that isn't very much push. I suppose if you only did one launch and ranged 4-5mph that might be doable.

I like the idea, but as jozzer pointed out, I am skeptical of practical range. It might be more effective to have just the controller/motor combo, and even a lightweight external a123 battery pack might help. Realistically, plugging in a controller and battery pack isn't that difficult, just that what we have seen to date is built to Chinese standards not US standards.

-JD

PS - maybe the octogon is the control/charging circuitry?
PPS - are those the 2.3ah cells, or the 1.1 18650 cells?
PPPS - They would also need to add brake cutoffs to sell in California, so the throttle-only method is incomplete.
 
The problem I think is that the batteries and stator are static, so they're free to accumulate any grime and muck that gets washed in with water. The centrifugal force would only work on the rotating parts which, as far as I can tell, is only the outer casing.

I think the vents are primarily there to cool the batteries and motor. Being in such close proximity to the motor windings would increase the battery temps beyond what you'd see for plain shrink wrapped cells in a plastic case. This would be only exacerbated on a hot day.
 
Ben said:
The problem I think is that the batteries and stator are static, so they're free to accumulate any grime and muck that gets washed in with water. The centrifugal force would only work on the rotating parts which, as far as I can tell, is only the outer casing.

I think the vents are primarily there to cool the batteries and motor. Being in such close proximity to the motor windings would increase the battery temps beyond what you'd see for plain shrink wrapped cells in a plastic case. This would be only exacerbated on a hot day.
Well, then this is a problem indeed, because of the salts and who knows what else in the grime. I have never seen a way to keep water out of anything. It is my experience that the accumulation and sustained contact is the undoing of components.
 
Works great in the hallways of a university building I bet.
 
They may have access to 10 aH M2 cells or something outrageous. The T shaped thing looks like a transmission. Are the panels some kind of regenerative brake/generator? Could it be a wireless charger (too)? How DO you charge it, BTW? Wireless throttle is cool but wireless charging is cooler still.

I dissed it on newsvine but it might do 25-30 miles at 20 MPH with a 30 MPH max which is pretty fair performance for a city bike.
 
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