Get a hub motor
- Thread starter EbikeMaui
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Build a ready made kit and put it on the market. How many more times are you going to repost the same pictures all over the forum? Do you think not enough people saw them the first time?
One of the local vendors ordered another container load of hub motors... seems as though they have more orders than stock on the shelves.
One of the local vendors ordered another container load of hub motors... seems as though they have more orders than stock on the shelves.
I wouldn't want a 20lb weight like that hanging off the side of an ebike. On a motorcycle you probably wouldn't notice it, but I would rule it out on ugliness. Might make a decent frame slider though. :lol:
$350 for the motor. How much for the rest of the kit? Sprockets, chain, motor mounts, installation labor.
http://www.poweridestore.com/Brushless-Motors/Series-5000-Motors
$350 for the motor. How much for the rest of the kit? Sprockets, chain, motor mounts, installation labor.
http://www.poweridestore.com/Brushless-Motors/Series-5000-Motors
Hi Randy
Quick word on power, lowell uses an X5 motor, they are big motors and can easily take a lot more than 500W infact there are people on here pumping 3.5KW in to them and they are working fine and do climb hills well, D has been climbing those hills with one for a year with no motor burn ups or controller failures.
The thing that concerns me with your system is 2 fold, the chain noise must be quite considerable as you are turning it at the motor at 3000 rpm or so, this will always be noisy and noisier as the chain wears, secondly its not very finger or clothing friendly either.
Also if you get a puncture its a lot more hassle getting the wheel off with 2 chains to get on, you also dont mention in to the cost factor the geared hub, these are very expensive and as I said previously require some engineering skills to graft the sprockets on.
I think your system is a good idea in general but there are downsides to it, here is the way i see it.
Randy Bike.
Pros
Efficient, good hill climber with good efficiency, powerful, fast
Cons
Noisy chain drive, tricky to setup, relatively expensive c/w geared hub, not very stealthy esp. on an island where e-bikes are illegal, may not fit all frame types easily, not available as an add on kit anyone can buy.
Brushless Hub Motor
Pros
Available! easy to fit, good range of motors to suit requirements, silent, easy to fit front or rear, cheap, no moving parts or noisy chains, powerful, fast.
Cons
High power motors are heavy, unless geared not as good at hill climbing as geared motors, not as efficient as geared systems.
I think thats a fair assessment Randy, the noise and stealth factor are very important for people I know this having been on the boards for such a long time, no matter what chain you use its going to be noisy, the xlyte motors are near as damn it silent, also like I said stealth, this is important esp when you are running high power.
I like your system and you are right in a lot of what you say but for the majority the hub motor is a much simpler solution, of course a multispeed geared brushless hub motor would be the killer!
I am going to have a go at a version of your bike Randy as I agree with a lot of what you say, and I think it will be fun to have a go to see if it lives up to the hype.
Knoxie
Quick word on power, lowell uses an X5 motor, they are big motors and can easily take a lot more than 500W infact there are people on here pumping 3.5KW in to them and they are working fine and do climb hills well, D has been climbing those hills with one for a year with no motor burn ups or controller failures.
The thing that concerns me with your system is 2 fold, the chain noise must be quite considerable as you are turning it at the motor at 3000 rpm or so, this will always be noisy and noisier as the chain wears, secondly its not very finger or clothing friendly either.
Also if you get a puncture its a lot more hassle getting the wheel off with 2 chains to get on, you also dont mention in to the cost factor the geared hub, these are very expensive and as I said previously require some engineering skills to graft the sprockets on.
I think your system is a good idea in general but there are downsides to it, here is the way i see it.
Randy Bike.
Pros
Efficient, good hill climber with good efficiency, powerful, fast
Cons
Noisy chain drive, tricky to setup, relatively expensive c/w geared hub, not very stealthy esp. on an island where e-bikes are illegal, may not fit all frame types easily, not available as an add on kit anyone can buy.
Brushless Hub Motor
Pros
Available! easy to fit, good range of motors to suit requirements, silent, easy to fit front or rear, cheap, no moving parts or noisy chains, powerful, fast.
Cons
High power motors are heavy, unless geared not as good at hill climbing as geared motors, not as efficient as geared systems.
I think thats a fair assessment Randy, the noise and stealth factor are very important for people I know this having been on the boards for such a long time, no matter what chain you use its going to be noisy, the xlyte motors are near as damn it silent, also like I said stealth, this is important esp when you are running high power.
I like your system and you are right in a lot of what you say but for the majority the hub motor is a much simpler solution, of course a multispeed geared brushless hub motor would be the killer!
I am going to have a go at a version of your bike Randy as I agree with a lot of what you say, and I think it will be fun to have a go to see if it lives up to the hype.
Knoxie
Jozzer
100 kW
Yeah knoxie....your forgetting that randy's solution is perfect, whilst all others are terribly flawed!
If it is so important to you randy that we all follow your solutions, then make/sell us kits! The fact is, that almost any implimentation ive seen you suggest, depends on access to machining tools, lots of cash for parts (etec and controller would be twice the price of x'lyte if i'm not mistaken), and major modification to the bike. Not to mention lots of hunting around for strange items (wierd sized sprockets that freewheel and the like).
Personally, I like the easy/quiet and powerfull enough 408 I have installed....which incedentally takes 84v@30A quite happily, climbs any hills within a60mile radius of here, and pulls my trike to speeds aproaching 40mph should I wish to go TOO fast.
To my mind, a motor like the etec belongs on a moped or a motorcycle....NOT a pushbike made for road use!
If it is so important to you randy that we all follow your solutions, then make/sell us kits! The fact is, that almost any implimentation ive seen you suggest, depends on access to machining tools, lots of cash for parts (etec and controller would be twice the price of x'lyte if i'm not mistaken), and major modification to the bike. Not to mention lots of hunting around for strange items (wierd sized sprockets that freewheel and the like).
Personally, I like the easy/quiet and powerfull enough 408 I have installed....which incedentally takes 84v@30A quite happily, climbs any hills within a60mile radius of here, and pulls my trike to speeds aproaching 40mph should I wish to go TOO fast.
To my mind, a motor like the etec belongs on a moped or a motorcycle....NOT a pushbike made for road use!
EbikeMaui said:
I disagree.
The "brushless Etek" has not proven to be that great of a performer based on testing results so far. The other issue is for a bicycle, the Etek sized motor is not optimal. The no-load current of a motor increases with size, so an oversized motor will be less efficient at typical bike power levels. It might be well suited for a small motorcycle.
On the other hand, the BMC hub motor is very efficient at bike power levels, it is lightweight, easy to install and maintain, and you can actually buy one today for $600, controller included. Since the BMC is internally geared, the motor can run in the efficient range, and the freewheel clutch is built-in, eliminating the need for custom made hubs and sprockets.
Hey Knoxie, if you're thinking about building an bike a la randy, may I suggest something?
You could get a Sturmey archer 3 speed of comparable gearing, including shifters, sproket & all63$. As well as a hall throttle 7$, a 24v 30A LB27 controller 12$, and a MY1018Z 45$. Add a chain at ~15$, a 24v lead charger 14.50$, and two 12ah bricks or so, 20$ each.
Without counting the sheetmetal, bolts, wires, zipties, the bike or time used to build it, the whole kit adds up to 196.5$. Consider that a dualdrive alone (without shifter or other drivetrain parts) would set one back 215$. You may need a bigger or smaller sprocket, but it's a shot in the dark to tell what speed the motor should be geared for given Unite's specs as published... Front mounting means you don't have to cripple the bike's normal gearing to do it, nor do you have to either warp your cadence around the motor's operating range or operate the motor in sub-optimal range, also freewheeling is allready built into this hub, all parts are off the shelf short of the mounting bracket that should be doable with crude hand tools, plus it makes for a 2wd bike.
You could get a Sturmey archer 3 speed of comparable gearing, including shifters, sproket & all63$. As well as a hall throttle 7$, a 24v 30A LB27 controller 12$, and a MY1018Z 45$. Add a chain at ~15$, a 24v lead charger 14.50$, and two 12ah bricks or so, 20$ each.
Without counting the sheetmetal, bolts, wires, zipties, the bike or time used to build it, the whole kit adds up to 196.5$. Consider that a dualdrive alone (without shifter or other drivetrain parts) would set one back 215$. You may need a bigger or smaller sprocket, but it's a shot in the dark to tell what speed the motor should be geared for given Unite's specs as published... Front mounting means you don't have to cripple the bike's normal gearing to do it, nor do you have to either warp your cadence around the motor's operating range or operate the motor in sub-optimal range, also freewheeling is allready built into this hub, all parts are off the shelf short of the mounting bracket that should be doable with crude hand tools, plus it makes for a 2wd bike.
oatnet
1 MW
Just wondering - that B&S motor looks like an open, air-cooled motor, whereas the hub motor is sealed... What happens when the bike in the above example drives through a puddle, or lawn sprinkler runoff, or plain old rain?
Also, after looking at all the grime that collects on the underside of my vehicles, wouldn't that grime be bad in open air-cooled motor?
Or am I fooling myself, thinking that the xlyte hub motor is more water-safe than it is? I am trying to make a sealed, safe wiring harness/battery box, but if the xlyte hub is vulnerable then I am wasting my time.
John
Also, after looking at all the grime that collects on the underside of my vehicles, wouldn't that grime be bad in open air-cooled motor?
Or am I fooling myself, thinking that the xlyte hub motor is more water-safe than it is? I am trying to make a sealed, safe wiring harness/battery box, but if the xlyte hub is vulnerable then I am wasting my time.
John
Randy
I was talking about your rig and I do know how noisy chains are? I built the Lemco bike and have been running geared systems of all sorts for years so dont tell me i dont know shit, I do and I have experience of all types of kits something you dont so I am more qualified to speak about it than you are.
I try and be sensible with you Randy but it doesnt work, you simply insist on getting peoples backs up with your attitude, your bike is shit more noisy than a hub motor bike thats a fact whether you like it or not, oh and the no load amps of the Puma motor at 80mph was 2.6A! thats on a video on youtube you can go watch it.
The facts are simple your system is noisy and clumsy hub motors are not I dont know why you bother as e-bikes are illegal on your volcano island, you may as well give up now and get a gas moped, if your personality on-line is anything to go by I doubt you have many friends on the island.
My post is still correct and my comparisons with your bike and hub motors are also correct as well. You will never admit it though it must keep you up at night Randy? along with other things as you are getting on a bit now old boy!
I think the sun and the wind have got and fried your brain Draper, all the folks on here run either hub motors or geared systems that are at worst level power wise with you and at best a lot more powerful, all of the x5 motor boys running 72V 40A all have more poweful system than yours that get the job done for them and look less like a motorised bike than your bike does.
The Puma and most of the xylytes are more than enough for most people on here oh and the xlyte controller is working fine now at 72V and always has at 48V, no need for mil spec components, you make me laugh you harp on about mil spec components then fit your rig to a piece of shit bouncy old walmart bike with upright bars so you sit like a big sail in the wind???????????//
Efficiency you always harp on about, you dont peddle you sit bolt upright on a heavy piece of crap bike, what a dork.
Oh well Draper, being nice to you don't work Ill just ignore you like I normally do, in the meantime everyone else can get on and have fun on their e-bikes unlike you who is breaking the law everytime they go out on the road, it wont be long before they take that piece of shit off you and crush it hopefully.
Noisy chain, expensive hub, tricky 2 chains, finger and garment grabbing chain what a load of bollocks, give me a hub motor any day.
Wake up and smell the coffee and coconuts Draper, its all over I am afraid, get a multi geared brushless hub motor
Also whilst you were mentioning motors burning, the only motor I ever remember burning up was the one you sold to Ken Trough, I seem to remember that one smelling rather bad.
Knoxie
I was talking about your rig and I do know how noisy chains are? I built the Lemco bike and have been running geared systems of all sorts for years so dont tell me i dont know shit, I do and I have experience of all types of kits something you dont so I am more qualified to speak about it than you are.
I try and be sensible with you Randy but it doesnt work, you simply insist on getting peoples backs up with your attitude, your bike is shit more noisy than a hub motor bike thats a fact whether you like it or not, oh and the no load amps of the Puma motor at 80mph was 2.6A! thats on a video on youtube you can go watch it.
The facts are simple your system is noisy and clumsy hub motors are not I dont know why you bother as e-bikes are illegal on your volcano island, you may as well give up now and get a gas moped, if your personality on-line is anything to go by I doubt you have many friends on the island.
My post is still correct and my comparisons with your bike and hub motors are also correct as well. You will never admit it though it must keep you up at night Randy? along with other things as you are getting on a bit now old boy!
I think the sun and the wind have got and fried your brain Draper, all the folks on here run either hub motors or geared systems that are at worst level power wise with you and at best a lot more powerful, all of the x5 motor boys running 72V 40A all have more poweful system than yours that get the job done for them and look less like a motorised bike than your bike does.
The Puma and most of the xylytes are more than enough for most people on here oh and the xlyte controller is working fine now at 72V and always has at 48V, no need for mil spec components, you make me laugh you harp on about mil spec components then fit your rig to a piece of shit bouncy old walmart bike with upright bars so you sit like a big sail in the wind???????????//
Efficiency you always harp on about, you dont peddle you sit bolt upright on a heavy piece of crap bike, what a dork.
Oh well Draper, being nice to you don't work Ill just ignore you like I normally do, in the meantime everyone else can get on and have fun on their e-bikes unlike you who is breaking the law everytime they go out on the road, it wont be long before they take that piece of shit off you and crush it hopefully.
Noisy chain, expensive hub, tricky 2 chains, finger and garment grabbing chain what a load of bollocks, give me a hub motor any day.
Wake up and smell the coffee and coconuts Draper, its all over I am afraid, get a multi geared brushless hub motor
Also whilst you were mentioning motors burning, the only motor I ever remember burning up was the one you sold to Ken Trough, I seem to remember that one smelling rather bad.
Knoxie
CGameProgrammer
10 kW
Keep it civil, knoxie. No need for insults.
This argument is rather pointless; hub motors have unique advantages, geared motors have unique advantages, and fixed-gear external motors have unique advantages. One cannot say which is 'best' and it's definitely wrong to say any particular one is bad.
Brushless hub motors are inconspicuous, extremely easy to install in any existing bike, quiet, and relatively weatherproof.
Fixed-gear external motors can be fairly quiet and they can be very fast or very strong, depending on gearing. And the handling of a bike using them may be better since the motor can be on the suspended portion of a full-suspension bike.
Geared motors can be very fast or very strong since the motor can run at a very high RPM most of the time, with the rider switching gears as needed. In theory, at least.
This argument is rather pointless; hub motors have unique advantages, geared motors have unique advantages, and fixed-gear external motors have unique advantages. One cannot say which is 'best' and it's definitely wrong to say any particular one is bad.
Brushless hub motors are inconspicuous, extremely easy to install in any existing bike, quiet, and relatively weatherproof.
Fixed-gear external motors can be fairly quiet and they can be very fast or very strong, depending on gearing. And the handling of a bike using them may be better since the motor can be on the suspended portion of a full-suspension bike.
Geared motors can be very fast or very strong since the motor can run at a very high RPM most of the time, with the rider switching gears as needed. In theory, at least.
CGameProgrammer said:
Yes, well said.
What works best for one person's needs may not be the best for someone else. The is NOT one configuration that is better than all others. In fact, the best configuration for motors, controllers, batteries, etc, is constantly changing. There is always room for improvement.
Instant Karma
1 W
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
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- 64
This Knoxie fellow must have had a real bad day today to be in such a foul mood, either that or he sells multigeared hub motors for a living.
Stevil_Knevil
10 kW
Randy,
So, if I am following your logic correctly, you are proposing that building something like the insane-a-cycle..
.. but substituting a brushless Etek and Sevon PMAC controller, is going to be a simple job using basic hand tools -and SO much more efficient than fitting a C-lyte or Puma hub motor to my bicycle.
Is that about right?
So, if I am following your logic correctly, you are proposing that building something like the insane-a-cycle..
.. but substituting a brushless Etek and Sevon PMAC controller, is going to be a simple job using basic hand tools -and SO much more efficient than fitting a C-lyte or Puma hub motor to my bicycle.
Is that about right?
maytag
100 W
Instant Karma said:
Umm, you must be kinda new to this forum. The big picture to the story is that Randy (ebikemaui) seems to piss off a lot of people on whatever message boards he posts on, at least I've seen it on the old VisforVoltage boards and now we've been witnessing the same here. I too read a lot of posts by Randy that just makes me want to speak out but I stay clear of the smoke. Knoxie probably was just typing while thinking out loud :wink:
I could agree with above, but i have too add : some configurations are much flexible than others - in my opinion.fechter said:
Geared or non-geared is a false alternative i'm sure -but i want to know your opinion fechter.
Two motors configuration can give us widest speed range at high efficiency and silence at most trip time. It allow us be free of switching gears too.
The only one disadvantage i see is the weight (3-4kg more) but it is not a big obstacle i suppose.
Tell me what else is wrong in such configuration ?
( Low power - 500W - high ratio geared/one gear - light high rpm rear motor for massive torque, and
x5303 as a front hub for racer speed. )
Regards
Stevil_Knevil
10 kW
maytag said:
Well said, Matag haha!
A little more history-
A few of us, maytag included, were at a semi competitive hill-climb event where the first "production" RandyMotor was unveiled.
Ken Trough had plopped this motor into a Schwinn Stingray, and had it set-up and geared to Randy's specifications. He did the climb alone, zero pressure. Less than 5 minutes later, he came rolling back down the hill -motor smokin'.
The RandyMotor was stinking out loud!
Granted, it had Kens' fat ass on it, and the crank arms were both fixed forward -just like what most choppers have on them :wink:
After the event, we went into town for lunch. I remember telling Ken that he should call his new bike, "StinkRay".
Good times.
-S
CGameProgrammer said:
Wasn't having a bad day and Randy is a big boy he wouldn't even consider that an Insult, the Idea of this forum is to say what you think? yes? should I censor what I think, what ever happened to freedom of speech?
I am consistently nicer to Randy than a lot of posters have been in the past, I was complementing him on his bike and he comes back at me sniping and spitting, telling me I have no Idea? I didn't see you criticise him?
I don't sell hub motors, I don't sell anything I just offer up my opinion and my Opinion of Randy is just that, I have been dealing with him for over 3 years on the forums and he never changes, he is an obnoxious and rude individual this is my opinion and that's that, whether you think I am being civil or not, being civil with Randy gets you shat on so what's the point.
He basically said that anyone who had bought any kind of hub motor have bought a piece of crap? that really nice and civil isn't it! If you don't like my tone then skip my posts.
I have geared systems and hub motors I prefer geared systems whether they be hub or driven off the bike and I agree with a lot of what Randy says I also like the fact that he speaks his mind, however I also speak my mind as well.
I am sure Randy has heard a lot worse before things got soap boxed.
Knoxie
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