GT i-drive 2.0 Build

[chroot]

GET STEALTH BOMBER!!!! :lol:

 

[Whiplash]

Ok this is based on only 3 years experience of (seriously) messing around with e-bikes, Hub motors should only be for the roads (way to heavy for serious off road stuff and to fragile ) The cost of a hub setup is far more than my rc setups and I dont know why peeps bang on about it, rc setups are a a bit more noisy but it really don't bother me or the people that I have passed (nobody looks to see what the noise is). I have never had a controller fail whilst out on any of my bikes ( hub or RC ) I have only had minor mechanical problems which been mainly due to the bike components not being upto the job of a 3.5kw system. The hub motor set-ups that I have, have been very reliable ( this is mainly due to never taking them off road I'm Sure). Far to many people who dable with rc setups aim to high and this leads to failure and gives RC setups a bad press.

I have to agree here and I have both as well. The hubbies are great for commuting or urban assault style bikes, but there is no hub motor out there that can hold a candle to my little 2000 watt OR LESS setup when it comes to real trail climbing, and I don't care how many watts yo throw at it, they will simply burn up trying to do it when I can just shift down a gear and keep on happily going up! Relatively flat terrain is great for a Stealth type bike, but if there is any ACTUAL mountain biking involved it will struggle to do it at best and if pushed, you will either hit a safety cutoff or break down, period. It is a choice for the owner to make being honest about the type of riding he/she wants to do with it, that is all...

 

[knoxie]

yes guys exactly... for what Greg needs he already has the right motor DC is pretty flat and I cant remember seeing any hills in any of his videos, I also disagree that Hubs are not for off road, if you check out my videos I use my bikes on and off road all the time they are just fine, the X5 is great at climbing at low rpms and because I keep the power down to less than 2KW it never ever over heats and the BMC climbs hills amazingly without overheating.

 

[Whiplash]

Yes, its a great dual purpose setup, I am just saying for real mountain climbing you need to go through the gears...

 

[knoxie]

we will have to agree to disagree on this one fellas, I have run so many different geared setups over the time, My X5 climbs amazingly well, OK its heavy but it pulls as hard as my geared rigs up hills, I also peddle too though guys, gears do help keep the motor in the sweet spot and for sure are preferable on really really long steep climbs but for most folks who havent got volcanoes to climb a well setup hubbie with plenty of juice and a willing peddler is just the ticket

 

[gwhy!1]

yes guys exactly... for what Greg needs he already has the right motor DC is pretty flat and I cant remember seeing any hills in any of his videos, I also disagree that Hubs are not for off road, if you check out my videos I use my bikes on and off road all the time they are just fine, the X5 is great at climbing at low rpms and because I keep the power down to less than 2KW it never ever over heats and the BMC climbs hills amazingly without overheating.

What I was getting at about using hub motors for off road is was mainly the weight issue, it really just dont work unless you counter weigh the front end to compensate then you end up with a bike the is as heavy as the bomber. There is offroad cycling and there is offroad motorcycling so Im not talking about grass, gravel or even muddy paths I think of off road more of needing to ride up or down rock steps, over large diameter bits of fallen trees, bolders, in and out of streams or climbing something that would be difficult even on foot , just to get where you want to be, a Hub will not last 2 mins and 2kw will defiantly not be enough power for this sort riding. Where as a rc setup fits the bill very well.

 

[Whiplash]

Yes, I am also talking about slower technical stuff. The kind of hills most would never think of climbing on a bicycle. Most of the trails I like out here, have but one other inhabitant besides me
....Big Horned Sheep! Lol! For most other stuff a hub has and will do just fine!

 

[veloman]

Hub motors can climb short hills great. Mountains? See the Pikes Peak thread for that animal.

I wouldn't want any hub motor for real off roading. Do any of you guys mtn bike? (pedal) Ride a decent hardtail and full suspension, notice how well it handles, incredibly light, nimble and can deal with the bumps. That is what is so fun about mtn biking and why its more popular than off road dirt biking. (well, one of the reasons). My Mac geared hub on my hardtail loses traction when I'm standing and hit some rough pavement at lower speeds. I can't imagine how bad it would be on the trail. All that unsprung weight just seems bad and wrong on bumpy trails. You can do it I'm sure, but it won't handle like a non-hub setup.

Any jumps on a hub motor just seems to be a test for how long till you are broke down. MAYBE if you run some massive tire and have landings with a smooth transition.

With all this said, I wish I bought this Mac hubbie 2 years ago, just to get rolling right away. THEN work on all those chain drives I did. I don't off road on my ebike though.

 

[knoxie]

yes guys exactly... for what Greg needs he already has the right motor DC is pretty flat and I cant remember seeing any hills in any of his videos, I also disagree that Hubs are not for off road, if you check out my videos I use my bikes on and off road all the time they are just fine, the X5 is great at climbing at low rpms and because I keep the power down to less than 2KW it never ever over heats and the BMC climbs hills amazingly without overheating.

What I was getting at about using hub motors for off road is was mainly the weight issue, it really just dont work unless you counter weigh the front end to compensate then you end up with a bike the is as heavy as the bomber. There is offroad cycling and there is offroad motorcycling so Im not talking about grass, gravel or even muddy paths I think of off road more of needing to ride up or down rock steps, over large diameter bits of fallen trees, bolders, in and out of streams or climbing something that would be difficult even on foot , just to get where you want to be, a Hub will not last 2 mins and 2kw will defiantly not be enough power for this sort riding. Where as a rc setup fits the bill very well.

I am not denying the fact that geared motors make excellent super steep climbing motors and are preferable to a Hub motor in this situation but cant agree that RC motors generally are more suitable as the controllers are known to suffer at low RPM'S (climbing steep tracks) unless you go RC sensored which is not an off the shelf option and besides like I said before Greg hasn't got this kind of riding in mind here, the RC system bringing for his day to day ride a whole can of issues that have already been mentioned.

The bomber is a great example of how well a hub motor ebike can be ridden off road and I have nailed my bikes off road without any problems, the unsprung weight in the wheel is something that I got used to years ago and anyway you just have to accept that an ebike no matter what drive train you use is not going to handle like a normal bike, as I said its all about compromise and we should all make our choices based upon our needs, have 2 bikes is the obvious answer, I have 5

 

[gwhy!1]

Yes a rc setup for serious offroad do need sensors fitted and like you say there is no off the shelf solution, But even for this sort of riding there really isnt any need for more than 1 gear as long as you dont a top speed more than around 22mph. I dont agree about the issues of everyday reliability of a good rc setup, The motor can be enclosed to protect for salt and stuff, Its not to difficult to cool the motors when they are enclosed. I love my hub setup for going to work ( road/path/grass track riding )I like the idea of how simple it was to put together ( well had issues with the rear disk brake and chain line ) but I didnt like the high cost of the hub, the lack of torque and the weight of the thing ( Im running it at 1.5kw and the bike only goes 20mph 20" wheel ) but its still lacking, but it is fast enough for my needs, I know this is only a small hub I would of liked a bigger one but the cost was just to expensive, Im sort of glad I didnt throw money at a hub setup I know I would have been disappointed and have a lot less cash in my pocket. (I have access to another 3 hub bikes ( I couldnt tell you what hubs they are but they all lacking in either torque or top speed ) I own 3 rc bikes and they are all great fun to ride and nothing comes close to a rc setup for offroad stuff) like you have said each to there own.

 

[flyinmonkie]

This has all been a little interesting, if not a rehash of many things already said. We have heard a lot from, lets face it, some biased sides. What I think we can all agree on is that the different drive types, and motors in those drive types, lend themselves to different ridding conditions or styles.

So to loop this all back to something that might help Greg, what is it that YOU want out of your bike Greg? With that info, everyone can provide information from their experiences that will apply to what you want.

That may be one bike that is a compromise, or two bikes best suited to what you are looking for. 2 bikes might not be such a bad idea, as you will always have a back up if one dies, or is "broken" from hard use.

Clay

 

[knoxie]

I do agree and I mentioned the sensored issue because I knew that your bikes were sensored, although you cant win because people like AJ who have tried both sensored and sensorless (CASTLE HV) systems have found the sensored setup to be lacking in power and went back to sensorless (I cant vouch for this myself) Its a shame your hubbies aint performing for you, I have geared BMC hubs and an X5 the X5 is a brute its mental heavy but its solid, silent and monster powerful, the BMC is light, powerful, almost silent but you do have to look after the gears.

If I were going to go RC I would go sensored and accept the power trade off, I havent seen any pictures of your RC bikes can you post some up, also have you got any video of them in action up the steep trails?

 

[gwhy!1]

I do agree and I mentioned the sensored issue because I knew that your bikes were sensored, although you cant win because people like AJ who have tried both sensored and sensorless (CASTLE HV) systems have found the sensored setup to be lacking in power and went back to sensorless (I cant vouch for this myself) Its a shame your hubbies aint performing for you, I have geared BMC hubs and an X5 the X5 is a brute its mental heavy but its solid, silent and monster powerful, the BMC is light, powerful, almost silent but you do have to look after the gears.

If I were going to go RC I would go sensored and accept the power trade off, I havent seen any pictures of your RC bikes can you post some up, also have you got any video of them in action up the steep trails?

Im unsure about the power trade off as I have never used a CC but I find it hard to imagine that it would be any better than what I'm using. Maybe one day I will get hold of one of these X5 ( if one comes along at the right price ). There are a few pictures and videos scattered around this forum of my older rc bikes but nothing really new within the last year.

 

[AussieJester]

Far to many people who dable with rc setups aim to high and this leads to failure and gives RC setups a bad press.

I thought i would chip in here since i prolly fall into this group
Don't worry frockers, not going to be bashing the frock :wink:

I think we saw alot of RC setups failing couple years ago (mine included)
due to a combination of things, unknown reliable power limits for one and what brand
of rc controllers worked and what didn't, I believe we see far
less failing these days, we know better now what works well and
what is going to break if pushed above certain power levels.
My second rc setup has nearly hit 1000km using the hv160 & Turnigy
80-100 130kv and i haven't touched the electrical side of things well,
i added a RC_Cycle Analyst but the previous throttle setup was working
it wasn't a change because of break down was an upgrade to a newly
released product I have limited my setup to 160amps now when
running the first bike i was pushing 280amps according to the CC Data
logging it was hella fun but obviously reliability was an issue, dial
them down as Mr GWhY says and they are every bit as reliable as
the frock motors, IMO.

With regards to which is best for slow technical off road riding
i would agree with WHiPLaSH and GWhy (surprise surprise) LoL
even if it was a single speed RC setup why, weight obviously
i was honestly flabergasted at the weight of those new Crystilite
motors when ES member Danny Mayes handed me his straight out of the box it
was delivered in, so was Danny, so much so he put it up
for sale on ES for sale section.

I also agree frock motors make great daily commuters, but then so do
RC setups But getting an RC setup to perform at its best off road
does take some hands on DIY, granted. Frock setups are very simple to
instal pretty much "plug-n-play" making them ideal for the not so
mechanically minded wanting a reliable year round all weather commuter.

There is place for both setups obviously, its horses
for courses, i don't think we can say one setup is better than the other
they both have the good and bad points...

Workout what you want from your bike and build it accordingly...

KiM

WOW active thread two post while i was writing mine LoL

@knoxie...my sensored setup ran on 50v only, THuD has confirmed
with a 66v setup the identical controller thy are on par with the hv160 in the ooomph
department, however, my new bike was designed for 50v so i wasn't able to
easily re-configure for 66v worth of lipo, if i could i would
because the throttle control (as good as mine is now with sensorless) is
far better with sensored setup as GHWy has often said.
Par for par on 50v the sensored Infineon setups GHWy
can run similar top speeds granted, but getting there is the fun
part IMO anywayz, this is where the hv160 beats out
the infineon again only on 50v, if your happy with mild acceration for commuting
the 12fet infineon works a treat, its not what i was after
high top speed is of no interest to me, 75km/hr is as fast as i
wish to go on a bicycle, i want it to get there quick! so i
went back to the HV160 and for the type of riding i am
able to do, it works extremely well. ::touch wood:: it will continue
to do so.

 

[dogman dan]

Well said AJ.

I have to agree with veloman. Nothing in my ebike stable comes within a light year of handling as nice as my pedal bike, a Specialized FSR. That rear hub dirtbike I love so much handles like it has a 15 pound rear wheel, cuz it does.

But though poorly handling by comparison to the crosscountry specialized, it still handles tight twisty trails much better than any motorcycle I ever owned. The hubmotor is a real compromise, and couldn't possibly be as good for handling as a mid drive of any kind. But with the hub on the rear, it's not really that bad, except on the tire wear and spoke tweaks. I do spend some time on that rear wheel keeping the spokes right. Since I'm an old fart, I don't ride that much tough trail, and the rear hub bike handles good enough for what I ride.

Re stuff from two or three pages ago, depending on what you want or expect out of a hubmotor dirtbike, you might try one of my favorite low wind motors. Methods has, or had them. No top speed on my 2812, but I sure like how it climbs. It seems to stay exceptionally cool while climbing steep, like blue square ski slope steep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfwdkfNZ7RQ

 

[Thud]

Anyone seen Greg? (this was his thread after all LOL!)

Hubs vs RC is apples & oranges. its already been said that you need specific tools for specific Jobs. I would not comute on a CR500 any more than I would take a CX500 over Laracco's leap.

So far the absolute best "All Around" E-bike I have ridden is a through the crank re-duction fitted to a hard tail Lightweight 26"Giant mnt bike.

That bike pedals fine all by itself & can climb a wall, tow a bus & still make 30mph & has never broken anything...& it runs on 8s-2p & a ICE100 castle controller. The weight of the drive train & batteries added less than 12# to the bike.
I can easily portage the thing over obstacles on the local trails.
It has worn out 3 sets of drive chains & 2 rear cassetts before its 2nd birthday. (so it is not a maintance free set up)

On the extream end...there is no decent bolt on rc solution for fully suspended mountain bicycle....comparison fail.
If your a fabricator & have the time, you can build anything you want...The twin motored bully was ridiculasly quick..Just ask Dogman or Wine boy. It is an extream example for a single aplication, as are Gwhy's trials bikes.
No Butcher cuts with a single knife.

Is one "better" tha the other? not really....unless your looking at a thin section of performance.
For Gregs sudo moto-x exploits...I'd recomend a cyclone type set up to reduce the weight & make his Jumping more enjoyable & give you the ability to drop it into low & actually climb the stairs instead of carying the bike up them.

I may be wrong, but the hubbie will prolly win out in efficancy for the daily comute into the city.

 

[knoxie]

Hey AJ, Thud

Great comments from you guys I have to say I pretty much agree with all that's been said on the subject and am interested to hear AJ and his reason for going back to the Castle, I think its early days in the development of these RC systems and as AJ says the faults are being ironed out yet where as hubs have been developed a little longer, the horses for courses analogy is the best analogy really as Thud already mentioned, I think Greg should get another bike go with an RC setup and just hot swap the batteries between the rigs? Greg is pretty well setup and I reckon he could fit the halls? else one of you could do it for him?

Hope your rig keeps running well AJ you got the summer coming

Knoxie

 

[Whiplash]

I think there could be a happy medium here that only a few have tried and not to this extent. I have been fiddling around with a MAC motor I have thinking it would make a KILLER mid drive, but its a bit large to retrofit to existing frames. SOOO I thought, "why not put it in the middle of the downtube?" I think this could be a great solution to this debate kind of getting the best of both worlds. Especially since the new MAC's can handle over 2000 watts with relative ease. I for one can vouch for the fact that 2K watts mid drive is PLENTY for most people! We will see how it goes... Basically take existing cheap bike frames, cut them up and drop the motor in..??

 

[deecanio]

@ Lenk, i agree, timma's build is top notch, it's where i'm headed and i've mentioned it to Greg too.

D

 

[chroot]

Are you the one gave up 2 stage RC setup on your Kona bike? If so, Why did you give up the RC setup? Out of curiosity.

@ Lenk, i agree, timma's build is top notch, it's where i'm headed and i've mentioned it to Greg too.

D

 

[deecanio]

guilty as charged.
the rc was very difficult to setup, mostly because i fitted it to the stinky, which was bought specifically for hub, the mechanics of making everything line up was a chore, also i tried rc very early on with Kim (before the rc CA etc) and i didn't ever get it to run correctly in the time i owned it, if i had perservered and followed kims lead i'd probably be there by now, but i had other issues with it and knew i needed a better mechanical layout to start with. Soo i decided to return the kona to hub, which will at least let me ride until i get my mitts on the next one.
@ knoxie, watching the wire up vid ready to have a stab, all else done bar bolt cheking.

D

 

[GCinDC]

holy awesome posts from everyone! thanks so much. i'm humbled. i've been nutso busy and i don't have time to fully respond...

i'm convinced a mid drive is nec. i want to do burn outs. and i want it light as hell. w/ lots and lots of travel.

the pressure is on! i would love to do something innovative. but who knows if i can.. i've been thinking more and more about the motoped frame. it seems like something new is coming out on that?

gotta go.

ps. thud, i walked it up so i don't have to change the pinch flat... :lol: those marble stairs are sharp.

 

[GCinDC]

just a little fun w/ no rear tire tread and 35 spokes
[youtube]1SM-UqtY_Ts[/youtube]

 

[veloman]

I love how that mud covers the camera, then slids off slowly.

 

[dbaker]

Did you notice any change in performance with the Hall repair? Sounds mean