Blueshift
100 W
Not the velomobile type that sits low and reclined to the ground, but more of the pedal car looking type( but still is classified as a bicycle). The elf is the newest one i've seen and the "rhat" is more of a motorcycle.
Have any enclosed bicycles come out like the elf lately?
- Thread starter Blueshift
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dogman dan
1 PW
Not really, the ELF is a bike, and operates at bike speeds.
ELF the only one I've seen in the news lately, and part of my job is to read every news story on the web 7 days a week, that pops up if you search electric bicycle. If others exist, they aren't new, or their publicity sucks.
ELF the only one I've seen in the news lately, and part of my job is to read every news story on the web 7 days a week, that pops up if you search electric bicycle. If others exist, they aren't new, or their publicity sucks.
Blueshift
100 W
Thanks Dogman,
Have you heard of any DIY projects recently?
I may have to build something myself.
Have you heard of any DIY projects recently?
I may have to build something myself.
ddk
100 kW
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LOL, just today I was talking with the 'other' local guy who builds elf-like bikes.
He also builds his own tadpole frames. Forgot to ask him where he posts but I know he has a few y-tubes posted.
For a small community we have lots-a-nuts of the e-bike variety, me included
He also builds his own tadpole frames. Forgot to ask him where he posts but I know he has a few y-tubes posted.
For a small community we have lots-a-nuts of the e-bike variety, me included
1JohnFoster
100 W
http://www.velometro.com/
Elf-like in that it's upright, but uber engineered and fully enclosed. They've only built a bodiless mule so far (which is very solid), but lots & lots of CAD and the molds are in the works.
Elf-like in that it's upright, but uber engineered and fully enclosed. They've only built a bodiless mule so far (which is very solid), but lots & lots of CAD and the molds are in the works.
John in CR
100 TW
1JohnFoster said:
"uber engineered"??? They have the weight distribution so wrong for a 3 wheeler that they have to limit it to 20mph, but even at bicycle speeds it will be dangerous in turns.
Chalo
100 TW
Some folks fail to distinguish between engineering, design, and styling. That microcar thing is styled out the wazoo. But its design is flawed and its engineering indeterminate.
Blueshift
100 W
1JohnFoster said:
I hope this goes to market, if it will be as solid as the digital picture seems to imply. Someone mentioned weight distribution; you think it looks like it could tip on corners? I'm sure if there are any safety concerns they will be addressed before launch
dogman dan
1 PW
Uhh, yeah, bicycle speeds is the point. If it's Euro, they are talking about 20 mph max, for the "speed type" But yeah, elf or other, you won't be cranking 20 mph turns, unless filming for Top Gear jokes.
I hadn't seen that one. I just see those that have publicity people working it.
I hadn't seen that one. I just see those that have publicity people working it.
tahustvedt
10 kW
Here's one more: http://www.virtuebike.com/product/virtue-pedalist
JackB
10 W
ddk
100 kW
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for those thinking of going the diy route* (the best route) consider this:
Flat surfaces are much easier to form, although they 'lack' the aesthetics of curvy bodies.
and that word is aesthetic, not aerodynamic.
If you attempt to build curved shapes your curved windshield will be optically distorted, unless you're very lucky or very skilled or most likely, both. And a curved windshield makes things really hard to apply a simple wiper system. (if needed- I don't need or use one)
And again, aerodynamics below 25mph is more about the total frontal area. The shape of the frontal area or its' sides has little effect.
A shaped-tail and enclosed floor can add a small benefit but the key word is "small"- that is, hardly worth the effort.
Of course this doesn't apply to the over 25mph builds...
as usual this is my (learned) opinion and as usual YMMV
-and do carry on-
*IMO- I don't often diss companies efforts** but-The BugE is the best example of why you should consider rolling your own. The BugE kit is aptly-named as you can spend as much time 'trimming and fitting' as you would just building one from scratch (i.e. buggy) but it is aesthetic-looking although completely impractical as a "car-re-placer" in it's "base" form.
**yes... yes I do!
Flat surfaces are much easier to form, although they 'lack' the aesthetics of curvy bodies.
and that word is aesthetic, not aerodynamic.
If you attempt to build curved shapes your curved windshield will be optically distorted, unless you're very lucky or very skilled or most likely, both. And a curved windshield makes things really hard to apply a simple wiper system. (if needed- I don't need or use one)
And again, aerodynamics below 25mph is more about the total frontal area. The shape of the frontal area or its' sides has little effect.
A shaped-tail and enclosed floor can add a small benefit but the key word is "small"- that is, hardly worth the effort.
Of course this doesn't apply to the over 25mph builds...
as usual this is my (learned) opinion and as usual YMMV
-and do carry on-
*IMO- I don't often diss companies efforts** but-The BugE is the best example of why you should consider rolling your own. The BugE kit is aptly-named as you can spend as much time 'trimming and fitting' as you would just building one from scratch (i.e. buggy) but it is aesthetic-looking although completely impractical as a "car-re-placer" in it's "base" form.
**yes... yes I do!
AF7JA
100 W
ddk said:
I am not so sure of that. Last week I went and chatted with a guy who built a coroplast body on a trike with a 450W geared hub motor. He claims that he picked up a couple of MPH by putting in a floor and putting a box around the rear wheel.
Eskimo
1 kW
What i don"t get is why almost all velocar designs seem to be so high? Take a look at Ferrari example, it"s very low. I don"t understand why a velocar is designed to be higher than a regular sports car.
It just causes high center of gravity, poor handling and high drag.
It just causes high center of gravity, poor handling and high drag.
1JohnFoster
100 W
John in CR said:
Have you seen the CAD model and talked to them?
By "uber engineered" I just mean they have a lot of engineers, and have done a shit-load of design work including dynamic simulation. Whether that translates to the real world, we'll see! The mule is really solid, but has no body, and everything in the design seems to have changed since then. The thing about uprights like elf is that you can shift your weight easily (and do automatically). It's not like a low CG trike where you're on your back. I dunno if they took this into account and assumed people would lean.
I think they limited it to 20mph because they plan on non-registering them as ebikes. Unlike our homebuilts, they have to worry about getting yanked off the road (or sued) because of real or perceived safety scares.
1JohnFoster
100 W
Eskimo said:
Velocars aren't sports cars. Velomobiles (like Quest etc) are sports cars, that's why they go really really fast, like Ferarris!
Velocars are for fuddy old people like me who go real slow and corner even slower.
tahustvedt
10 kW
This one is one of the nicer ones: http://arcusvelomobile.com/
It's a kit that can be installed over trikes.
It's a kit that can be installed over trikes.
Well, I haven't built one yet. But here is where I am in my design phase:
I've experimented with a lot of different things in CAD as well as exploring many different seating positions in non-enclosed actual physical frames I've built and tried out (not all of which were powered by more then just human pedal power). And that is the best I've come up with so far.
Cross sections are at 6" intervals from the ground up starting with the base which is 6" ground clearance. Simple stick figure is shown in actual physical fill in the cross sections rather then just stick figure. The idea is aerodynamic shaped nose and tail with roof but open sides for ventilation and operating in cross winds with zip up lower and upper, DWR fabric/clear-plastic respectively, panels for partial or full enclosure in bad weather. Heat stretch formed plastic panels (a process I'm familiar with) for the shell (which is 24" wide except for at the very top above the shoulders). Being a two wheeled conventional bicycle layout you lean into the turns just like a normal bicycle and your not way down low but your eye-line height is up high enough for good view in traffic and also more likely to be seen by other drivers.
Normal bicycle (all proportions correct) in front for comparison especially for comparison of body positioning for pedaling, comfort, eye-line level, and ability to easily put a foot down when stopped at a red light.
Edit Addition: Oh, yah, since the potential aerodynamic issues of floor vs. no-floor were discussed no floor for what I'm planning since you need to put a foot down when stopped since its a two-wheeler not a trike. Not mentioned but there are weather proof issues with no floor as well but in my experience the main weather protection I need is from getting splashed from the side from passing cars and not so much from my own wheels, good fenders pretty much take care of that. The zip up lower side panels would be really nice since I'm tired of getting my legs totally soaked and road goop splattered from the splashes from passing cars.
I've experimented with a lot of different things in CAD as well as exploring many different seating positions in non-enclosed actual physical frames I've built and tried out (not all of which were powered by more then just human pedal power). And that is the best I've come up with so far.
Cross sections are at 6" intervals from the ground up starting with the base which is 6" ground clearance. Simple stick figure is shown in actual physical fill in the cross sections rather then just stick figure. The idea is aerodynamic shaped nose and tail with roof but open sides for ventilation and operating in cross winds with zip up lower and upper, DWR fabric/clear-plastic respectively, panels for partial or full enclosure in bad weather. Heat stretch formed plastic panels (a process I'm familiar with) for the shell (which is 24" wide except for at the very top above the shoulders). Being a two wheeled conventional bicycle layout you lean into the turns just like a normal bicycle and your not way down low but your eye-line height is up high enough for good view in traffic and also more likely to be seen by other drivers.
Normal bicycle (all proportions correct) in front for comparison especially for comparison of body positioning for pedaling, comfort, eye-line level, and ability to easily put a foot down when stopped at a red light.
Edit Addition: Oh, yah, since the potential aerodynamic issues of floor vs. no-floor were discussed no floor for what I'm planning since you need to put a foot down when stopped since its a two-wheeler not a trike. Not mentioned but there are weather proof issues with no floor as well but in my experience the main weather protection I need is from getting splashed from the side from passing cars and not so much from my own wheels, good fenders pretty much take care of that. The zip up lower side panels would be really nice since I'm tired of getting my legs totally soaked and road goop splattered from the splashes from passing cars.
1JohnFoster
100 W
Hello turbo1889,
Here are 2 similar vehicle 2 wheel vehicles from 2 similar spirits:
Cedric Lynch's motorcyclehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omIlvnNqFyc
Allert Jacob's 125cc motorcycle http://www.velomobiel.nl/allert/Recumbent motorbike.htm
I hear ya. My next bike will be 2 wheels and similar to yours, but probably head out for simplicity and less attention, and longer for cargo.
Here are 2 similar vehicle 2 wheel vehicles from 2 similar spirits:
Cedric Lynch's motorcyclehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omIlvnNqFyc
Allert Jacob's 125cc motorcycle http://www.velomobiel.nl/allert/Recumbent motorbike.htm
ddk
100 kW
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Yup, I said "small". I did consider an enclosed floor but decided against it.AF7JA said:
If I want to travel faster than my velos' design parameters I only have to exchange its' normally used 10S battery pack for a 12S or 14S battery pack. All my packs are the same physical size (by design) but vary between 7S through 14S cells in various paralleled combinations and are all externally color-coded.
Increasing the battery voltage is an engineering decision based on cost/complexity of construction for an enclosed floor vs. a couple of more battery cells. I did worry about getting my feet wet but that has yet to happen. And I've had to travel under some outrageous conditions.
The basis of design is fundamentally meeting your needs within your budget, not your wants.
...in my situation I required a semi-enclosed EV where I didn't need to contort my uncontortable body to enter/exit.
The design for my velo was simplified by local weather conditions, which only requires protection from rain/splashing and windchill. I don't have to deal with snow or ice. (or ooblech)
Is my velo aesthetically ugli?
...sure it is!
Does the velo get publicly shamed because of its' ugli-ness?
...quite the opposite.
With the amount of inquiry I get about this velo, I can only assume that if the price was right, it would be a heavily-consumed product.
Yes, indeed, if its a DIY situation then what works for you is what you should build.
The main thing that has made it such that I really can't consider any of the off the shelf products in this category is that I refuse to get all the way down to the ground with my rear only a big mac's height off the pavement and laid way back so that to look forward my neck is constantly craned forward with my chin bumping against my chest every time I open my mouth and down so low that every other vehicle totally blocks my view and I'm at risk for people in their big SUVs running me over without even noticing me way down ther and wondering what that bump was.
Yet I still want the aerodynamics as best as possible because I want to be able to go as fast as possible within the legal limits of my state. My state has a 2-brake-horsepower maximum limit for motor power output for it still to be considered a bicycle (1.49-Kw physical output power) and a the motor must not be capable of propelling the vehicle faster then 30-mph without the rider pedaling. And thus if your set-up the controller so the motor only runs when the rider is pedaling there is no upper speed limit and you can go as fast as you can make it go within those motor power limits plus whatever you can add in yourself with pedaling.
Basically I want to go as fast as I can make it go while still being legal and without having to get way low to the ground. Plus I want some weather protection. And I need ventilation for hot days as well and I also need to not be blown over or into other traffic by a side-wind.
Which reminds me, thank you very much for posting the two links 1JohnFoster the second one really helped alleviate some of my concerns about side-winds and made me consider that I may not need the sides to be quite as open to keep that from being a problem since that guy specifically addressed that issue including side winds going all the way up to 40-mph side winds.
The main thing that has made it such that I really can't consider any of the off the shelf products in this category is that I refuse to get all the way down to the ground with my rear only a big mac's height off the pavement and laid way back so that to look forward my neck is constantly craned forward with my chin bumping against my chest every time I open my mouth and down so low that every other vehicle totally blocks my view and I'm at risk for people in their big SUVs running me over without even noticing me way down ther and wondering what that bump was.
Yet I still want the aerodynamics as best as possible because I want to be able to go as fast as possible within the legal limits of my state. My state has a 2-brake-horsepower maximum limit for motor power output for it still to be considered a bicycle (1.49-Kw physical output power) and a the motor must not be capable of propelling the vehicle faster then 30-mph without the rider pedaling. And thus if your set-up the controller so the motor only runs when the rider is pedaling there is no upper speed limit and you can go as fast as you can make it go within those motor power limits plus whatever you can add in yourself with pedaling.
Basically I want to go as fast as I can make it go while still being legal and without having to get way low to the ground. Plus I want some weather protection. And I need ventilation for hot days as well and I also need to not be blown over or into other traffic by a side-wind.
Which reminds me, thank you very much for posting the two links 1JohnFoster the second one really helped alleviate some of my concerns about side-winds and made me consider that I may not need the sides to be quite as open to keep that from being a problem since that guy specifically addressed that issue including side winds going all the way up to 40-mph side winds.
1JohnFoster
100 W
tahustvedt said:
"Nicer"? I dunno. To me it has the 1960's "melted blob" look. I'd give it a wan smile if I was on the appropriate drugs. Yours looks better! The arcus CDis probably double Quest, who really know what they are doing.
Also, "prices will start from 5495€ (the DIY kit from 2700 €)". $7,783 Canadian _before_ import! For an unproven design (note prices "_will_ start"... ). I could buy a Quest in Canada for $8,350 CDN from BlueVelo, and it would work. The Acursed Velomobile will live up to its name until proven otherwise.
1JohnFoster
100 W
Amen! Years of fiddling with my velomobile was within my budget. Of course my budget would have been big enough to buy a functional velo if I'd worked all those hours for cash instead.ddk said:
That's cool, I like it too. Very dignified. How many watts on the flat with no wind at 20mph?ddk said:
ddk said:
Yes, the right price. "I _love_ it! $200 takes?" I worked for Dynasty Electric Car Co (fiberglass NEV's). If we got $5 for every phone call "expressing interest", we'd have been making money.
tahustvedt
10 kW
1JohnFoster said:
I kind of like it. It's maybe not as beautiful as a Quest, but it looks a lot more practical for daily use. I would use it more than a Quest due to the easy of entry and better weather protection. It's probably pretty good aerodynamically as well.
Mine is prettier of course. Yours as well.
ddk
100 kW
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yesterday I wrote this wall of text continuing the conversation but alas, my internet connection cratered before I had an opportunity to save my work to 'notepad' so I'll be brief today.
The "blob" seems an excellent design compromise between aerodynamics and practical. I wouldn't buy it.
Don't need to go fast and with 1kW of motor who cares about aero...
Ahem...
I live in a rainforest, where locally it rains over 150" per year. That's over 12 FEET or 3.8 meters of waawaa. Thats why I built an (semi) enclosed velo with full sides, roof and windshield.
It utilizes AWD, sporting a mini geared-hub motor on the front wheel and a beefier geared-hub motor driving the rear differential.
The front hub motor, mounted in a 16" wheel sets the top speed of the trike.
With a 10S battery that top speed is 15mph.
At 15mph it uses about the same power to get around as my other trike. (also AWD)
Speaking of my other trike, while I was talking with the other e-velo DIY guy he suddenly sprouted
"I remember you !"
"Your that guy who built that really long trike."
...really long trike? why I never... oh, wait
I guess it is kinda long at that.
The "blob" seems an excellent design compromise between aerodynamics and practical. I wouldn't buy it.
Don't need to go fast and with 1kW of motor who cares about aero...
Ahem...
I live in a rainforest, where locally it rains over 150" per year. That's over 12 FEET or 3.8 meters of waawaa. Thats why I built an (semi) enclosed velo with full sides, roof and windshield.
It utilizes AWD, sporting a mini geared-hub motor on the front wheel and a beefier geared-hub motor driving the rear differential.
The front hub motor, mounted in a 16" wheel sets the top speed of the trike.
With a 10S battery that top speed is 15mph.
At 15mph it uses about the same power to get around as my other trike. (also AWD)
Speaking of my other trike, while I was talking with the other e-velo DIY guy he suddenly sprouted
"I remember you !"
"Your that guy who built that really long trike."
...really long trike? why I never... oh, wait
I guess it is kinda long at that.
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