Help Selecting/Finding Battery Pack for Paramotor

C

cejkabrad

1 mW
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
15
I recently purchased a Home Built Electric Paramotor. Original Owner and builder was using a 20AH Lipo Battery pack and got approx 25 minutes of flight time. Second Owner was planning to build a 16s battery pack using 20ah LifePo4 prismatic high C rating cells in series. He was also going to include a BMS.

I am a noob to this stuff and know only the very basics when it comes to Electric motors and batteries. But from what I have been finding on the interenet so far I am leaning towards the LifePo batteries with a BMS. Another thing that comes into play is that I do not have the time or knowledge to try and build this battery pack myself. Would rather buy from a reputable source. Below I have listed the Motor Specs that I could find on the Internet. I am looking for ideas on what battery pack/configuration that would product the best power with longest run times and where I could buy one or have one made. Obviously I can only go so large cause weight is an issue but I would be very happy with 25-30 minutes of run time.

Motor: Hacker Brushless A200-6
Power range Max: 15000W (15sec)
Idle Current (Io) @ 8.4 Volt [A]: 5.1A
Resistance (Ri) [ohm]: 0.011
RPM/Volt (Kv) 151
RPM max: 8000

Any advice or help in this matter would be much appreciated. Thank you
 
Initial estimate would be that you need a 60 volt pack able to supply bursts of 250 amps.
Lifepo4 would work if you used something of the calibre of A123 pouches to give you the power (discharge current of 250+ amps).
But , for a paramotor , minimum weight is probably a high priority, and hence you may want to reconsider the use of a quality RC lipo pack which would almost halve the pack weight and be much more compact.
To estimate the size ( amp hours). Of pack required for 30 mins run time, it would be necessary to have an idea of the "duty cycle" you expect during flight...EG: time at max power, time at half power, time at min power, etc
Do you know the continuous power rating of that motor ?
 
What motor controller is used with your kit? look at the max. voltage of you controller and beware that 16s of LiFePo4 is a lower nominal voltage than 16s LiPo.
I would look into the correct charge, discharge and treatment of LiPo batteries and use the 6S 20Ah Multistars: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...pacity_6s_20000mah_multi_rotor_lipo_pack.html

If you make a 2s2p with 4 of those bricks you'll have a nice 44.4V (50V fully charged, Hacker motor max 54V?) 40Ah battery pack that weights appr. 10 kg and will give an easy 250A discharge and a decent fly time.
 
Remember , the motor max voltage doesn't mean much other than to indicate what is needed for max power output.
But , pack voltage is critical also for that power and it will sag (reduce) under high discharge conditions, so it better to have a higher voltage pack and use the controller to do its job feeding the motor at the correct voltage.
I do not think a 44 volt pack will give you max rpm, or max power from the motor.
IE:..if the pack sags to 40v at 250amps , then you will only get a 10kW peak output and 6000rpm max. ( estimates only)
.. But , that may be enough for your needs and would certainly be an economical pack.
 
Thank you for all the great info. I looked some more stuff up on this motor.

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-vendo.php?shop=hacker_e&SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=37300006&t=3&c=36&p=36

Recommends Lipo of 12s-14s
Volts 42V
Amp 230
RPM 5120
Power 9660w (I think this is the continues power rating?)

Duty Cycle (30Min Flight)
5 Min Max
20 Min Half
5 Min Min

I assume by motor controller you mean ESC. There is no writing on it to tell me what size it is or who makes it. It is the original the builder used to fly several times with this motor and with no issue. I hate to assume but I believe its rated for 300A plus

I have been leaning more towards Lipo cells. My concerns with these Is a BMS and a way for me to monitor Voltage while flying. This way I can know about when its time to start flying back to my landing location.

Thanks again
 
Taking 9,660 W as the max continuous rating, and 15,000W as the "pulse" power, then it looks like you would need aprox 3kWhr pack for that 30 min duty cycle.
A 14s lipo would be 53 v nominal. (59v fully charged ) so a 3kWhr pack would be aprox 55 Ahr and would have to be rated for at least 5C ( 270A) continuous discharge.

by the way,..have you read this thread.. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=34940
 
So would you recommend using the multistar lipos that Slowco recommended but in a different configuration to get to a higher Voltage. And is it bad to go over the 42v that the manufacturer recommends?
 
This is a link to the controller I am using.

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-vendo.php?shop=hacker_e&SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=52007017&t=7&c=5583&p=5583

Masterspin 220 Pro
 
The 42v manufacturer figure is what they specify in order to achieve stated performance ..
5-10 volts more will not be a problem, and depending on the cells you choose may be needed to allow for voltage drop at max discharge. The controller will regulate the voltage.
Choice of cells depends on your personal preference.
Multi star are ok and cheap, but are not the best quality and have been known to have issues. Their ability to perform at quoted C rates is also questionable. Search the "Multistar" threads for more detail.
Nanotech packs have proven high C rates, but are more expensive and still not perfect quality.
Other high quality RC packs are available but will cost even more. ..EG Polyquest, or those on the Hacker site.
I would spend some time on the forum researching RC lipo reviews.
 
So I am having a hard time deciding on the battery configuration. All the lipos that I have seen with large capacity such as 20000mah are either 4s or 6s meaning there is no good way to get to 14s. So that brings up another question. Is it okay to use a battery pack with a fully charged voltage that excessed the what the Controller manufacture recommends. Example is the Hacker Masterspin 220 has and operating voltage of 18-59V. Will I burn it up if I us a 16s Lipo pack since fully charged it would be 67.2 volts?
 
I’d ask Hacker what they think about 16S? eBike controllers (ESC) usually max out around 63V mostly limited by E-capacitor ratings. Thing is, I don’t see these aero ESC’s using big E-caps?

But maybe the FET’s can’t handle another 8V?

You may just have to settle for 2qty 4S with 1qty 6S to do 14S.
 
Ykick. You can do that? mix different voltage lipo packs in series without issues. I want to be sure before I do that cause others on an RC form said that this was a big no no.
 
Different voltage (cell count) packs in series is no problem,..as long as their capacity is the same.
In Parallel, packs must be same voltage, and capacity.
The hacker site listed 7S packs of 35C , 5ahr cells, ..expensive, but expect high quality from Hacker.
For your application, ( human flight), be sure to throughly check and test any packs before use.
 
cejkabrad said:
Ykick. You can do that? mix different voltage lipo packs in series without issues. I want to be sure before I do that cause others on an RC form said that this was a big no no.
Click to expand...

As long as they’re the same Ah and C rate connected in series you can keep stringing different cell count bricks together for as many volts as you need/want.
 
Have you checked how to charge lipo with a rc charger ( s ) ? These are hobby batteries and are a hobby to precharge and discharge sort good and bad then make jumpers for the packs. We are just getting started. Do you have a 80watt fat tip soldering iron ? Know let's start to put it togethere ok. Work not flying. Then you can assemble. Then how to charge a 14s 45ah pack. Check out the whole must have buy list to make a lipo pack first. Total cost.
Just maybe 18650 pack and bms plug and play and not a battery hobby. Plug it in the bms managers the pack unplug. Fly.
Where are you from ?
How about a pic of your dream flyer ?
 
A plug and play pack of 18650's would possibly be the ideal solution and also the lightest, & smallest.
But finding a ready made pack of the correct voltage and capacity (+ shape) , and cell type, might prove a problem.
I'm sure there is someone who would build a pack to your spec, but the cost would be considerable. ..( $1500+ in cell cost + labour etc to build)
It doesn't sound like you are ready to build a pack of this scale and power (15kW), yourself yet, so you may have to shop around for pack builders.
Wiring and connections for a 15kW system is not to be taken lightly either.
 
I do have a lipo battery Charger/balancer and understand the basics. I have several small RC Airplanes so I have been dealing with these batters for a few years now but never this advanced. Never had to configure batters in series or parallel. No I do not have any soldering tools or experience. yes I would much rather have something plug and play than a battery hobby. That is why I am on here trying to figure it was will work the best for what I need with the least amount of work. I am not familiar with 18650 packs. I might have to do some searching and see what is available.

This is kind of my winter project. I already fly a gas powered paramotor but wanted something smaller and lighter to travel with. I am not looking for a battery that I can fly an hour nor do I want it to cost me several thousand. I have the gas motor for that. If this thing gets me in the air for 20 minutes of low level flying I will be very happy with that. And is a fair weather thing so it will probably only get used once maybe twice a week on average.

I live in SE South Dakota.

And yes here are a few pictures to get and Idea of what I am working with.







 
Unless you replicate the pack that was installed originally, someone will have to design and assemble a new power harness to suit whatever pack you go with.
Is there a reason you don't want to replicate that original lipo pack ?...you mentioned it was good for 25 mins flight .
I would save you a lot of time and money, unless you find someone local with the skills to help.
 
Yes what information do you have on the old battery pack ? Looks like it's all set up for some sort of lipo configuration ? Would like to see a pic of it.
 
I was also interested in using the original battery configuration used but I am the third owner and don't have it. First was the guy who built it and sold it when someone stole his 20ah lipo pack. Second owner purchase all the A123 Lifepo4 cells and planned to build a 16s pack for it but lost interest when realizing how much work it was going to take. Then I purchased it and have attempted to get more info from original builder on the exact configuration of his battery but he will not reply. So the only think I have is that it was 20ah and that's coming from the second owner.
 
I'm not a lipo guy, but I do see four 4mm plugs hanging down. Maybe a pic of the hanging wires and junctions to the main.
We have many Sherlock Holmes of the electrical world here. Let's who gets first prize ?
Then you would need proper charger and power supply. Think about this part in the price of lipo battery hobby. Paraglider hobby and lipo hobby.
 
Can you give us more detailed pics of that wiring harness and the connectors.
A diagram of it would also help try to figure out what could have been there originally
My initial guess would be there were 8 of those 5Ahr, 7s Packs from the Hacker site.
Arranged as 14s , 4p.
 
I would like a better quality packs then the cheapest hobby king if I was in the air. Plus charge and discharge a cycle or two to see everything is good before pack building.
 
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