hightekbikes.com motor kit review. Electric bike kit.

dogman dan

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May 17, 2008
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Las Cruces New Mexico USA
I just recieved a motor kit from Terry at hightekbikes.com. I'll be doing a long term review of this kit in exchange for a small discount on the kit. I saved some money, but not enough to sugar coat anything, I'll be telling it like it is, and riding it as hard as I can.

The kit is a brushless hub motor from AOTEMA, the same manufacturer as the Wilderness Energy kits. I don't know if it is the same motor, but it comes with no WE literature, and may be a bit faster than the WE brushless kit being sold last spring. Maybe wound different? I don't know at this point. The controller is said to be a 30 amp, while the WE one was said to be a 50 amp. Specs can be wierd anyway, with one seller talking average amps, and another talking max amps.

Terry seems pretty knowlegable about ebikes, so clearly he is not just a drop shipper that never saw a motor. Emails were promptly replied to, usually the next day. There was a slight delay in shipping, as Terry was still setting up some paypal stuff, but it still got to me in about 10 days. There was the usual UPS conveyer belt holes in the box, but no shipping damage to the stuff inside. For once the axles weren't poking through, thanks to some foam blocks on the hub.
 

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So here's the stuff, Wheel and brushless hubmotor, controller, throttle, etc. Nice touch throwing in a wire adaptor for andersons. My battery is set up for the bullet connectors. Some folks hate em, I have not had any big problems since I run 36v at moderate amps. Higher power batteries need the andersons, but for me, the trailer connector works ok. Anyway, if my battery had andersons, I wouldn't need to do any additional wiring, just use the adaptor. For some reason Terry forgot to send the battery bag and the rack. I don't need either one anyway, and maybe I told him so, but he is going to send them later.box contents.jpg

Of course I have to take something apart right away, so here is the inside of the controller. At first I thought it was huge, since my old motor was a brushed motor. The simple brushed controllers are much smaller since not much is going on in there compared to brushless. The box looks a bit harder to waterproof than the old brushed controller, but on opening it, I see its potted inside. So a bit of humidity in there won't be a big problem, and since I live in the desert, I won't even bother with hot glueing the seams. I do always carry some small trash bags to cover up with If I get caught in a shower. If I have to ride wet, I'm unplugging the controller. Inside I see 63 volt capacitors so I will not be too worried if I want to run 48v at some time. Right now I am using a 36volt 20 amp hour Lifepo4 battery from pingbattery.com This gives me about 46v hot off the charger, and at cutoff, 40 volts. inside the controller.jpg
 
Installing the kit is pretty easy, but in this case made easier by the fact that the bike has about 1600 miles on it with the previous brushed motor. So I knew there were no suprises lurking with the dropouts or fit of the motor on the forks. The bike started out as a cheap wallmart mountain bike but by now there are a lot of modifications to it, mostly to make it more comfortable. But the main thing on install is the fit of the motor on the forks, and making sure the nuts are tight, and there is a very good flat contact for the washers. On this bike I have steel suspension forks that are pretty dang strong and lots of contact area for the big washers that come with ebike hubs. This kit came with two torque washers, so you get some extra insurance to help prevent axles from spinning. On my old motor, the torque washer could only be used on the side with no wires, but on this motor there is enough clearance to use two. If the axle ever does spin, it looks less likely to cut the wires. Nice. Here is a few shots of how to make the drip loop in the motor wires. This prevents water from running down the wire and into the motor. Also some shots of how the torque washers look when installed.drip loop.jpgtorque washer, wire side.jpg

A few more shots here. I like to put the thumb throttle so the thing is most comfy when at full throttle. I pretty much am at full throttle at all times, except on starts, when a lot of strain can be put on the battery getting going. Once rolling a bit, I floor it and keep it there till the next stop sign. So for more comfort, I mount the throttle so the lights face downward some. With a lifepo4 battery the warning light for low battery doesn't really do any good anyway so I don't need to see it. The thumb throttle can be used with a grip shifter fine, but I removed the front one, and the derailur, and put the rear one on the left side mounted upside down. This unclutters my right handlebar, and I only use the big sprocket on the front gears. This way I can shift with the left hand, and throttle with the right, at the same time.[/attachment]rear shifter.jpg
 

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I try my best, but somehow I get pictures mixed up in posts. A few more pix, this time how the whole bike looks, and how the controller is stashed. I would have liked to put the controller on the top of the toolbox, that holds the battery, but the wire was too short. I've got it temporarily stuffed in front of the box, behind the seat, but haven't decided what to do about it yet. If I had some triangle space, I could put it there, but I don't. This way works for now though. Lots of extra wire on the throttle, so no problems if you have big cruiser bars or apehangers on a chopper.controller.jpgmotor and bike.jpg
 
dogman said:
Of course I have to take something apart right away, so here is the inside of the controller.
:lol: :D

How much are these kits going to go for ?
or there is no set price yet ?
 
Dogman,

It looks like the standard Wilderness kit being sold by several vendors on eBay. One of them is selling it for $370 with a 36V/12AH SLA pack but is willing to piece out the kit for less, like without the battery pack and charger for example.

That controller does look big, can you give the dimensions?

Is the rim single or double-walled?

Was the wheel true out of the box?

On your picture labeled “torque washer 1.jpg” in the lower right hand corner the head of the spoke doesn’t look like it is seated; can you comment on the overall wheel build?

Being that it’s sensorless can it start off the line or do you need to be moving? Does it chug at low speeds?

Do you have a meter connected so that you can tell us the current draw?

What speed are you getting?


I look forward to more of your comments on the kit.


-R
 
The last thing, or the first if you take it to a shop for it , is to true the wheel. Aotema sends them out pretty rough. Or they get that way in transit. Either way, you really need to get the wheel trued at a shop before you install it, or do it yourself if you know how. It can be tricky, and on a motor wheel spokes can break and the thing will be more likely to get out of round since it gets pounded with the extra weight. This one was pretty bad, lots of wobble, and some egg shape too. Dang! I'm good at wobble, but getting the egg shape round again is harder for me. A half hour of tuning and I got it pretty good. After a few miles of test riding, it only took a few minuites more to get it real nice. I thought it would be harder, but it wasn't. Other vendors ship a better trued wheel on a higher quality rim, but not usually at these prices. This kit is a good value, but not the top of the line. I find it pretty easy to do my own truing, but sometimes I will take a wheel to the shop just to avoid doing the work. Even if you spend 20 bucks to get the rim dialed in, it is still not very expensive. If your shop is charging more than that, find another. Even a well tuned wheel could be bent a bit by the gorillas at UPS. With all that weight, if it gets dropped off a conveyer it can bounce pretty hard.

So now I'm ready to ride. Everything hooked up, tested and it works fine. First I check the hub nuts one more time, and sure enough, one nut can be turned another 1/8 turn. Overnight the washer has settled in on one side and loosened up a hair. I keep those nuts tight, but not overtight. Too big a wrench and you can strip em, but they do need to be tight. I use a 6 inch handle crescent. Someday I'll have to get the right wrench, I have 17mm and a 19 mm, but this seems to take an 18 mm.

Despite the lack of hall sensors, this motor seems able to start itself without pedaling. This is my first brushless motor, so it is a lot different. If you pick the wheel off the ground, and hit the throttle, it may back up a tiny bit, then start forward and start running. With your weight on the bike, it can be a bit slow to get going, but if you don't want to pedal, you can just throttle and go. It seems to like it a lot better though, if you don't give it full throttle too quick, and better still if you just push off a little or pedal lightly to get going. Compared to the brushed motor, which was also an Aotema, it makes a bit more noise, especially when just starting out. The slight growly noise, which is normal and expected, turns to a low whine as speed picks up and pretty much dissapears when at full speed. I kinda like it, when the whine gets loud, I know I should be pedaling a bit harder. On a hill, the tone of the whine tells me exactly how much strain the motor is going through. Keeping the pedaling up and the whine down should extend my range. It seems to work good, no halls to worry about, especially if you live in the wet places, yet you don't absolutely have to pedal first to get going. Cool. I tried to do some hard starts to see if my battery bms would trip, but it didn't.

Speed was suprising. I knew the WE brushless sold last year would only do about 20 mph with a 36v battery. Acutally I run about 44 volts for the majority of any ride, since I use a lifpo4 36v pack. So I was expecting around 19-20 mph. Instead I find it has speed on the flats that is just about one mph less than the brushed motor I have used all last year. So my 36v flat speed was just about 22-23 mph. For me that is fast enough. Faster than that gets scary, bends wheels, and gets the cops looking at ya. Downhill, on very shallow grades, 25 mph is easy. So there you have it, this motor is definitely faster than the Wilderness Energy kits sold last summer, or still selling now from the same stockpile. I am going to guess for now that it would do about 27-28 mph on the flats at 48v. Bear in mind my bike has tall handlbars, knobby tires, and I ride it sittng straight up, catching all kinds of wind drag. So this motor passes the test for speed for me. I'm not looking to get tickets, but I do want to do better than 17 mph when I have 15 miles to go, morning and night. It is so close to the motor I'm used to, that I won't be having to leave the house early to make it to work on time.

But sometimes a fast motor can have less torque, because of the winding count. My commuting route is from the high plain above the valley, down 800 vertical feet, and then along the valley edge up and down some short but steep hills for a total of 15 miles. Not so bad. Now try to get home in the evening. Good luck buddy. After about 6 miles of steep ups and downs, the big hill comes. About a half mile of 5% then a full mile of 10%. Then a long slow climb up the high plain on an easy slope, but not so easy if the battery is down to nothing. So hill climbing ability is real real, real important to me. Much to my suprise, when I went down to the big hill and came back up, I set a new record for speed. WOW! I had read stuff about how brushed motors climbed hills better, but I can tell you right now this motor can climb a pretty steep hill. Just for grins, I went back down and tried to climb it , no pedaling. It nearly did it, no way could the brushed motor do that. I finally pedaled just a bit at the top to keep speed above 10 mph. I also tried backing off the throttle and climbing slower but pedaling to help. That worked fine too. With the old brushed motor, half throttle would just come to a stop, and you would have to floor it, or walk. VERY NICE! I have no other brushless motor to compare with, but this new one from hightekbikes.com is clearly adequate for some pretty steep hills.

Ok but what about the 1000 pound gorilla in the room, HEAT? Heat is my biggest ev problem. I live in the desert, and when I ride 15 uphill miles home, it can be 110 F by noon. Roads melt, shoes melt, and of course last summer I melted a brushed motor. So while I rode up and down hills for 15 miles today, I kept feeling the motor to see if it got very hot. My old brushed motor would get pretty hot going downhill, even on some chilly mornings. Coming back up, it was not unusual for it to be over 150F. Today was coolish, only about 50 F but still, for about 10 miles I coudn't even feel any warmth coming out of the motor. After 15 hard miles at full throttle, it finally got warmish. I forgot to bring my thermometer, but I doubt it exceeded 100F. Heck a ride around the block on the brushed motor would make that much heat. Wow, I expected a cooler motor only if it was slower, but not only is this motor fast, good on hills, and it runs cool too! It seems like a pretty great hubmotor to me!

Range is yet to be determined, but lately the brushed motor could barely take me 14 miles, and this one just did 15 with no signs of a low battery. I'll be keeping track of the watts used in a roundabout way, by logging the kilowatt hours the charger uses with a killawatt meter. A full drained battery is taking about .73 kwh to charge.

All in all I'm very pleased with this motor at first impression. A good truing before shipping would be an improvement, but as long as the customer is expecting to need to get it straightened that is an easy to solve issue. The motor is fast enough, 23 mph on the flat at 36v, but not so fast you are gonna get ticketed every day. It climbs well and doesn't overheat. I expect I am going to find this motor quite up to the task of taking me 30 miles a day, day in and day out, without straining my battery, my legs or my wallet. I would say buying this kit is a good idea for anyone wanting a solid motor at a reasonable price. A bargain kit is no bargain if it is too slow and won't climb a hill.

Once the winter ends and I start riding more again, I'll be logging a hundred miles a week or more, so keep an eye on this thread for updates every 500 miles or so. The real thumbs up on a motor kit is when you cross the thousand mile mark. The way I ride, full throttle all the way for 15 uphill miles is a real test for a motor. If I can't break it, I bet you can't. If I do break it, we'll know where the edges of the envelope are.
 
Yes this is very very similar to the kits sold under the WE brand. This may be the same thing WE will be selling in 2009, but all reports I heard said the 2008 WE brushless was slower, usually a shade under 20 mph with sla's. The 2008 WE kit can be found on ebay pretty cheap. This more recent kit seemed to hit the market on ebay around thanksgiving, and I almost bought one then. That seller turned me off with bogus claims about regen. He claimed 25mph on 36v too, which I didn't belive much after the regen claim. So I didn't buy from him. Terry is offering the best deal I could find on this 2009 model kit and he sounded a lot more straight up than the guy on ebay, so I finally went with him. The wheel build is the typical Aotema deal, cheap rim, but beefy. I don't know if they are double wall or single. I put 1800 hard riding miles on one similar Aotema rim and 400 on another without any broken spokes or any need to true the wheels constantly. I'm not joking, I plow though some big bumps as fast as the bike can go. If stuff breaks I get better stuff, but I don't care about brand names or flash. I like my bike to look cheap, and ride like the devil. I do find that the first 300 miles may take some extra tweaking, but after that the rim settles down. At this point a few of the spokes are abnormaly loose since this one came pretty warped. Maybe the unseated one is one of those. I like to tweak a little, ride a little and tweak some more when I have a new rim. In about a week I should have the rim very straight and then I'll snug up any spokes that are still not tight. Till then the loose ones allow it to go the way it needs to. The controller is aproximately 4 inches by 6 inches, with another inch of flange on the 6 inch side. I think your other questions were just answered in the post before this one.
 
Just noticed your post bobocop as I read though again looking for my many misspellings. Look in the for sale section for the price, or go to hightekbikes.com. For the free shipping deal you have to PM terry through the sphere to prove you are a member. $329 is what the website shows right now. I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody is selling a 408, throttle and controller for that including shipping. This kit is what it is, an entry level motor of good value at a good price. Batteryspace had a good price on WE kits last summer but this is the best deal on the new slightly faster motors.
 
Just read the thread on this kit in the for sale section, and went on the website.
Must say that is a great price.

will be watching to see how it does on your bike with a few runs.
 
Overnight the charge on the Ping 36v 20 ah battery took .55kwh after a 15.8 mile ride, about half uphill and half down. Normal lately has been at least .70 kwh. So .15 kwh less for about 2 miles more range so far. In warm weather I had plenty of range, but as soon as things cooled down, I started having problems with the ride home, and running low by the last two miles. Looks like that is over now, and in summer I should have a ton of range again. I plan on tracking the wattage used to recharge about one week out of each month, to see how temperature affects things as it warms up.
 
Yesterday I forgot to look at the no load speed of the motor. With the battery at full charge of 44v the wheel spins with the tire off the ground at 33 mph max speed. I'm not sure how this compares with the crystalyte motors. It seems comparable to the 408, but I don't really know how fast a 408 is on a Ping battery.
 
Just got back from a range test. Great day for it, sunny 70F in January! :twisted: Don't even try to tell me the earth is not warmer. Actually rode for the first time this year in a short sleeve t shirt so it was perfect for a range test. At 50 F or so, I start to lose range so at 70 today, I can get a pretty good idea what the range will be on this motor all summer..

22.5 miles to the first cutoff of the BMS. This is on a pingbattery.com 36v 20 ah lifepo4 battery. With the brushed motor cutoff was usually about 19.5 miles. Normaly I hate to go much further than one bms cutoff, but with the brushed motor, I could go a little more with lots of pedaling and almost no throttle and milk another mile out of it. On this motor I didn't need to be so careful, and could still ride 15mph for another two and a half miles. So an absolute total of 25 miles, and a usable range of 22 miles. The range test includes a 700 foot vertical climb and back down, and lots of mild grade that is nearly flat. Needless to say it was wide open throttle all the way, and though I did pedal, I didn't try real hard since I was a bit tired today. Lots of starts with not much pedaling too. The ride took an hour and a half, so my c rate is way under 1c. That should be nice and easy on the battery, but I will still say and always will say, get the 20 ah lifepo4. The lowest c rate wins the cylcle count contest every time. This time I took the infared thermometer with me, and at the top of the big hill, I took a reading of 95 degrees. The brushed motor would do 140 degrees F going downhill! No wonder I melted a brushed motor last summer. :roll:


So range is about 15% better than the brushed motor, and speed is close to the same, so that sounds about right to me. On the WE website, they used to claim the brushless motor was 30% more efficient than the brushed motor, but speed was also about 20% slower. I figured the efficiency difference was not so big at the same speed. Where it gets important though, is that the wasted energy gets made into heat, and it looks like that is about a 50 degree difference in motor temperature. Important stuff for us desert dwellers.

It took .84 kwh to power the charger to recharge the batteries. I guess I really drained em, usually a full charge is about .73 kwh. Now that I can monitor this with a killawatt meter, I'll be trying to ride so as to never use more than .6 kwh to recharge. That way I can max the lifespan of my lifepo4. My normal ride of 15 miles should do that unless I get too much headwind.

If I used 19 ah to go the 22.5 miles then one mile uses .84 amp hours. Or one amp hour will take you 1.18 miles. In cold winter weather this is bound to be less, this winter my range dropped at least 25%
 
I got my first full commute to work today on the new motor. If there was any change in the travel time I couldn't notice it, so clearly the motor is fast enough for me. On the ride home, I really couldn't say how it handled the big hill, since I had a 30 mph tailwind. Going donwnhill in the morning, I used the same amp hours as the way home in the afternoon. That aint normal! Typically it takes 8 ah to get there, and 15-19 to get home. Shows how much wind resistance does to your range! Close to 50% of your power is lost to the wind. That's why I keep harping, get the biggest battery you can stand to carry. One fine day, you'll have a long ride home in a 30 mph headwind.
 
Strong headwinds, the bane of every cyclists existance. My favorite cyling power calculator says about every 5MPH increase in wind speed is like a 1% hill grade so your 30MPH wind, if steady, is akin to climbing a constant 6% grade, yikes! They are the one thing more than anything else that keeps me from riding my bike. Not this year though, because this year I'll have a secret weapon on my bike. :D

Now getting back to the topic; how would you rate the amount of cogging torque of the motor from not noticeable at all to crimany the thing feels like riding with two flat tires?

-R
 
To me the cogging torque seems pretty bad if the controller is turned off. Maybe one flat tire. If you have enough power in the battery to keep the controller on, and no throttle, it is not too bad. Less than the brushed motor in the same situation. Cogging does increase as speed increases though, so riding more than 7 mph or so may still be pretty hard. No comparison to a gearmotor with very little resistance in freewheel mode though. If you want to ride unasisted at all, get a gearmotor. To really test cogging, you have to ride a couple miles that way, and I haven't done that yet. What seems easy the first 1/2 mile is pretty hard by the 3rd or 4th mile of it!
 
Dogman, I bought one of these kits f/ the guy who claimed "regeneration function" He answered that all brushless motors have generators, therefore, more efficiency. As to his 25 mph claim, he said that his bike goes 25 mph. My Aotema does 23 mph with the slick tires @ 65 psi. I only weigh 165. Going freeweight the wheel spins at 30 mph. The Bd-36 spins at 35. Your descriptions seem similar to mine. Also, I was told that once the whinning noise goes away, this is where you get more efficiency-- at about a steady 20 mph.
The thumb throttle is identical to the WE one. The controller is either 35 a or 50 a. Not sure The hub motor did arrive with a few cosmetic scratches thanks to Fed X Ground, but this vendor had the wheel trued by a professional and included a spoke tooling, so I gave him a positive feedback
 
I'm pretty sure they are the same kit from the same supplier. Very likely the same supplier that sells to WE. Even the cheesey battery rack is the same. The new motor does seem to go a bit faster than the BL 36 avaliable last summer. 25 mph with pedaling is definitely easy. Usually I talk speed in no pedaling and range with moderately energetic pedaling. I suspect a winding change from the BL36.

As for regen, any direct drive motor is a generator. But most controllers don't allow that power to go back into the battery. Regen could actually fry my bms in a ping battery anyway. But the way Ebay vendors can be, it doesn't take much to turn me off! When I asked this guy about the regen claim he said it was a typo, and removed it from the text. A few weeks later it was back. Yeah right, a typo, over and over. Either he is full of compost or has a worse memory than I do. Either way, I found Terry at hightekbikes much more beliveable. So far I'm liking the motor fine, and I expect you will too. The only differences are going to be in the vendor, most brands have several places to get em. Terry has the best price with the free shipping for sphere members at this time.
 
The battery rack is a joke. It does holds 36v 12ah, but looks ready to give somewhere with 2 skinny legs; already replaced it and the controller is going into a front wire basket. The only wiring going to my rack is a 36" SAE extension cord. The basket should better conceal and protect wiring and controller.
 
Since I have a suspension bike, I don't use the supplied rack. Maybe in a few years I'll have enough of em to make garage shelving with em.

Today I got a more normal ride home up the big hill ,that tailwind the other day was fun. Just for grins, I decided to try the one mile of 10% with no pedaling. From a dead stop at the bottom, 3/4 throttle got me up the hill at 8 mph with no indication it was going to stall. My previous motor, a brushed one, would definitely stall if I tried it with that one. Even on a steep hill at lower speeds this motor seems to do ok. With energetic pedaling I should be able to fly up this mile long hill at 15 mph or more. Steeper than 10% is a lot slower, and might stall the motor, but remember, I'm only running a 36v lifepo4, thats 44v actual. This ride took .6 kwh to charge so even with no pedaling up the big hill, I'm still in the target range of not discharging much more than 70-80% of the capacity to get home. A totally discharged pack takes .8kwh to charge. Converting to ah, this ride took about 14-15 ah. Each amp hour of charging takes aprox .04kwh of power through the charger.

105 miles on the odometer and so far I'm still pretty happy with this kit. Plenty fast, climbs the hills I need to climb fine, easy on the battery. I had my doubts about the controller when starting up, but all you need to do is roll it a few inches with a foot push to eliminate 90% of the start up growling, which is harmless anyway. Letting it start itself works fine too, it just takes a few rides to get used to the way it starts from a dead stop. It may back up a half inch, and then take off forward. At first this may be startling, but it's harmless and soon you don't even notice it. If you don't like it, roll forward one inch as you hit the trottle and it never happens. I am starting to get in the habit of leaving the bike in top gear again with this motor. To take off, I push off with one foot, and a half second later, hit the throttle to the max. As I get rolling, I start pedaling at about 5mph. I find this much easier than shifting, or pedaling in too high a gear and straining through the first pedal rotation. One pushoff, mash the trottle, and by the time my feet are on the pedals I'm going fast enough for pedaling in top gear. Gotta love an ebike!
 
Here is a pic of the bottom half of the big hill I talk about. The steep part begins where the 4 story hotel in the left of the pic is. About 3/4 of the hill is in the pic, behind me as I took the pic is a short downhill to an underpass, followed by some more steep hill, about 1/4 mile. So there is a small relief from the hill, but not really, since you get a stop sign and get to climb the rest from a dead stop. Before you get to the mile of 10% you get to climb some less steep hill for a half mile, so together, it makes a real fun ride, 700 vertical feet in about a mile and a half.big hill large.jpg

In a photo, it of course looks pretty flat, but that 4 story hotel in the pic is only about 3/4 of a mile away, and you can look down at the roof top. When I say 10%, that is the average, including the short downhill to the stop sign, and a short stretch of less steep in the middle. So some of it is a bit steeper. It's not that it is really all that steep, but the length of it will wear you down. Someday I need to go out there with a spirit level and measure the max incline.
 
Vintage hotfingers ski gloves from the 80's. Back then, the best ski gloves in the world. Turned out to be the last pair I ever needed despite 20-30 days a year of skiing for a decade. They used to go well with my purple ski suit, and burgundy purple VW bug that was my ski car. The hot weather we had last week blew away, oh well, 70 degree days were nice for a week.
 
Interesting day yesterday. I took the bike out on some fairly easy dirt trails to see how it did on short but steeper hills, and low speeds. As you may know, the motors with no hall sensors do act a bit funny at stalling speed, doing a lot of grumbling and generally sounding like something horrible is going on inside. There isn't anything going wrong, but it may sound like it. Once you reach a higher speed it goes away. Anyway this sound also happens if the motor is really trying to pull too hard up a steep hill. After riding through a few of the real steep ups and downs as the road crossed a bunch of dry washes, I found that half throttle worked a lot better than full throttle in this situation. Since this is really rough road, 5-10 mph is as fast as I want, I'm riding in the lowest gear the bike has, and only a half throttle and some pedaling is all I need to get up these short steep hills. How steep? hard to say for sure, but some areas are close 20 degrees, but only for 50 feet or so, at the very bottoms of the gullies. I was thinking full throttle for the steep hill, and getting a lot of noise from the motor, but less throttle worked just as good. I guess in this situation, the max torqe avaliable was when the motor was not over loaded with electicity compared to its speed. So mashing the trottle didn't make more power unless the motor could speed up.

As always, I really enjoyed the front hub grabbing dirt while the rear wheel got traction too. I feel that in the dirt, this is a real advantage. This trail is just steep enough in places that I often have some difficulty keeping the front wheel on the ground when riding on a pedal only mtb. The heavy front hub stays on the ground, and with both wheels driving, I feel a lot more secure. Yes the front hub spins occasionally. Ever rode a dirt bike that didn't spin the rear tire ? I haven't. After a short while, you just get to where you don't really even notice it, and it is just part of the ride, like pedaling or steering. I never felt like a little wheel spin was a problem. It's just part of dirt riding, and no big deal.

So much to my suprise, this hub is not bad in the mountain trails, provided you ease off some on the throttle, and don't ride up hills you couldn't pedal up on a regular bike anyway. It might do even better if rode faster, but when I run the dogs, I keep it well under 10mph so they can run for miles and not get too tired. But it's low speed performance was pretty good as long as you don't over throttle it. I found the little noises the hub makes as it strains harder really helped me to keep the trottle in a place where the motor was happy. I rode 6 miles and used about 8 ah.

As I was riding along, I saw a large animal, and thought oh shit, now the dogs are gonna run 50 lbs off of a dang cow. Instead it was a huge buck deer! like 12 points. I have seen the herd of 4-6 does that lives there 4 or 5 times, bear in mind this is pretty barren desert, but in 40 years of hiking , biking, driving and flying over this area I had NEVER seen the buck. Not one time. What a magic day. Fortunately the dogs didn't notice as I rode by less than 100 yards from this bad boy.
 
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