Hillhaters Mk 3 Friction drive !

[GGoodrum]

Wow, this is an excellent idea. I also have a bunch of different stems, including the adjustable one shown above, that I got from Jenson awhile back, which I was using to hold a jackshaft on one of my earlier folding bike conversions. There are some models that have 1-1/8" holes, which fit the same bearings Matt uses in his reduction drive. You can't see the bearings in this picture, but you can see the stem:

 

[Hillhater]

So will it ride on the tire all the time, or will it sit just off then "snap" onto it when you roll on the power? I'd like to build something very similar...
S.

Exactly,
Not my original idea, it has been around in various forms for some years, but was recently revived and perfected by "kepler" for his Eboost drive design.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20491
The motor is hanging from a free pivot in the stem, and is clear of the tyre when not in use. The torque reaction when the motor starts "kicks" it into contact with the tyre and then the drive friction pulls the motor into full contact. Movement limiters and some "damping" is needed to make it all work smoothly.

 

[gwhy!]

Excellent use of re-purposing there! To make this idea even more 'adaptable'
to variety of bikes you could use one of the many adjustable stems such as :-

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=39260

Look forward to hearing how it works out, Kepler seems to have sparked a new
interests in friction drives, definitely some nice looking DIY variants popping up lately
nice and light, cheap and very usable for on road commuting even in wet weather!

KiM

I agree KiM it makes me want to just try one just beacuse I have all the bits here and very good use of the handle bar stem this would be the ultimat in anyone could give this ago for a very minimal price.

very well done Hillhater and thanks for showing

Edit:
Hillhater, it would also be very simple to fit external halls to your mounting bracket and you can use a sensored controller then all the sync issues will disappear. :wink:

 

[Hillhater]

Hillhater, it would also be very simple to fit external halls to your mounting bracket and you can use a sensored controller then all the sync issues will disappear. :wink:

Yes, i am keen to try that option, and i believe you are "D'man" to talk to about fitting them.
But, i have yet to nail down a suitable sensored controller for my 18 v , 1500W ( 80A?) set up ...any suggestions ?

 

[gwhy!]

Hillhater, it would also be very simple to fit external halls to your mounting bracket and you can use a sensored controller then all the sync issues will disappear. :wink:

Yes, i am keen to try that option, and i believe you are "D'man" to talk to about fitting them.
But, i have yet to nail down a suitable sensored controller for my 18 v , 1500W ( 80A?) set up ...any suggestions ?

As it happens I do a modded 6 fet e-crazyman controller would cost around $50'ish to do your self or there is someone on this forum that mods these controller for a price in the for sell section.

 

[Thud]

gwy said:

I agree KiM it makes me want to just try one just beacuse I have all the bits here and very good use of the handle bar stem this would be the ultimat in anyone could give this ago for a very minimal price.

I am also intreaged by the simplicity of these current designs. (another win for HOBO's across the world!) Being the self apointed king of the Hobo's i ran the math on a STUPID combo just for fun. I have a sensored 80-85/170 that spins 13300 on 66v......if we can maintain 80% of that rubbing on a 24" tire......the speed is 98mph! (i know wind drag is going to push that down...but the mind reals LOL)

time for an aero tail & some topped off batteries LOL....
realy is tempting to throw one together....thanks for the insperation hillhater.

 

[Hillhater]

Guys, ..Thud, etc,
i admire your ambitious plans , but i would just add that my objective for this system ( and i believe one of Keplers objectives), was to make the drive "package" quickly removable for security and/or transferable to other bikes...using in my case the complete seat post removal as the primary carrier.
This could lead to some compromises in terms of strength or rigidity of the drive if you start using high powered motors etc.
Seat posts can flex( keep the drive mount close to the frame top tube), and clamps can loosen. sometimes even the tighted QR clamp may not be secure enough to prevent the post slipping or twisting, and that would mess up the drive function and possibly even damage components.
So please be aware of the potential limits of this type of mount, it is intended for a light weight , no peddle interference, "portable" drive.
If you are looking for a way to put 3+ kW onto your bike, i would not recommend this system ( I doubt the tyres would last long enough if nothing else ! :wink: )
Either way, have fun with your builds ! 8) :wink:

 

[drifter]

Hillhater, have you had this one running yet, I am holding my breath, waiting in anticipation.

 

[Hillhater]

Running , ..yes, but still suffering from sync problems on start up/acceleration load.
currently waiting for another ESC to try and then later some hall sensors.( i am going to try a 150a car ESC that will run both sensored or sensorless.
If that doesnt work, its either a new motor + Castle ESC ( but that didnt work for Oatnet :? ) ...or its all going off the Harbour Bridge ! :lol:

 

[ktronik]

super slick!!!

err for us RC newbys, any chance you could link the motor type and battery voltage you use for this... I am a bike mechanic and may just have a few bike parts lying around for a go at this one...

any reason why a sensorless lyen controller NOT work, as long as I stay under RPM max??? and you guys dont use them as they are huge right?? sync problems sound no fun...

thanks again

Ktronik

 

[gwhy!]

super slick!!!

err for us RC newbys, any chance you could link the motor type and battery voltage you use for this... I am a bike mechanic and may just have a few bike parts lying around for a go at this one...

any reason why a sensorless lyen controller NOT work, as long as I stay under RPM max??? and you guys dont use them as they are huge right?? sync problems sound no fun...

thanks again

Ktronik

No,No,No the 6fet controllers are not huge! the 12fet are big but still not to huge, You have been listening to the AJ havent you

the sensorless lyen controller may work ( never tried one )

 

[Hillhater]

Motors are the Turnigy outrunners, 50 or 63 mm diameter (mine is the 63-54 200kv) , chosen to have skirt bearing and low kV rating.
battery is either 5s -18.5 v or 6s - 22.2v LiPo , chosen for high capacity, low weight.
Check the Kepler Advanced Friction drive thread for more details.
I dont know the lyen controller, but what ever controller you chose , it will need to handle both low voltage (18.5) together with high current (80A, -possible 100+ amp peaks !), and i dont think these are too many controllers around that will do that in a compact size. Hence the choice for RC type ESC's.
There is a lot of work going on to develop better controllers, so keep reading for the latest updates. :wink:

 

[ktronik]

WOW thanks heaps guys!!!

Just the info I was after, & see now why RC ESC are used..

GWHY: don't know AJ, but I think the 6fet mini monstor with 4110's might be worth a try...see below link

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19587

a quote from Lyen, It works on both 60 and 120 degree angle hall sensors motors such as the 9C, Crystalyte 40x series, 5 series, Turnigy (at up to 2200rpm only), Astro (at up to 2200rpm only). if it works for 24v it should work for 22v and a bit lower...

some guys mod these boards to do 100A, but guess with only 6fet might be a bit dicey...Lyen also makes a 12fet version with 4310's (sensorless) hey i am a newbe, so just don't know but had to ask...

Thx

Ktronik

 

[Hillhater]

I asked Lyen about a sensored controller (18.5 v, 80-100A) , and whilst it could be done, it will require some mods to the controller.
so, no "off the shelf" solution, just need to get practicing with that soldering iron ! ... unless something else turns up in the meantime !

 

[ktronik]

thx!!

will stick with RC ESC and start small..

K

 

[Hillhater]

Ok, time for a brief update on the sync problem...
The 150A Aeolian car ESC finally arrived ( http://www.leaderhobby.com/product.asp?ID=9394001220262 ) but with wrong /no connectors , so i am still not able to install it and run on the road.
However, a "test bench" hook up using fly leads got it operational and gave an initial impression.
The ESC came complete with a programmer, so re setting the critical parameters was easy ..( no reverse, minimum brake, LVC, acceleration rate , etc)
This ESC can auto detect sensored motors, but as i dont have the hall sensors yet, it is set up running sensorless , same as the Turnigy KF100 used previously.
Initial results are encouraging ,with no sign of the dreaded "Sync" failure, good start up, and no the load speed is the same as before at 4680 rpm
but also a noticeably quieter running motor. ?? infact the loudest sound is the fan on the ESC heat sink !.
Minor problem is that with the "reverse" function switched off, the throttle range is halved with nothing happening until 50% of the thumb throttle travel is used .
.... i will look for a way around that issue.
Now i will get irritated waiting for more connectors to arrive so i can do a proper trial.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Wow! $88 for the whole 150A enchilada plus programming card...the catalogue claims its ready for any voltage all the way up to...
49.9V?...EDIT: Hillhater found the capacitor label reads 25V, so 6S max...

...(what type of connectors would be good to order with this, to hook it up to a Turnigy motor and LiPo batt??)

 

[Hillhater]

Actually, i got mine from their Ebay shop, ..$70, post free at the time !. ( but not now ! :? )
The specs are a little wooly, yes the data says 49.9v programmable for LVC , but it also says "2-6s lipo" in the set up data, and on the actual ESC it has a label that states .."2-4s lipo"...?? :?
It seems happy on 5s at the moment.
All the power wires are 10g and the 4mm bullet connectors i have wont fit, but i think the ones i have used from HK take bigger wire. I have some in the post to try.
Mainly i want the battery connectors to match the Turnigy Lipo pack.
I am still surprised at how much smother and quieter the motor seems to be with this ESC. It makes me think i had a dud KF100 from Turnigy before. ?
One other little nicety is the included miniature "ON/Off" switch, which allows connection to the battery with no "Cap spark", before you switch it on !

Edit:- I just noticed also that the caps (3x 1000uf) are only 25v rated !

 

[AussieJester]

I dont quite follow on why you have to wait for connectors before you can try it on the bike? When the connectors get there you need to solder them to the leads, why not just solder the leads together now wrap it in tape or heatshrink and give it a try..or am i missing something here?

KiM

 

[Hillhater]

dont much fancy soldered connection direct to the battery !
And i dont want to remove the existing connectors on the motor..
...so i will wait for the mail.
Anybody found a local source for those Turigy / Zippy, battery connectors ?

 

[mwkeefer]

How many do you need and in which size the 4mm, 4.5 or 5mm (I think there are 5.5 too on the 30C packs)?
-Mike

 

[Hillhater]

Mike, Thanks, but i already have 20 sets in the mail from HK...
...i was just asking if there were any other sources local (Australia) :wink:

 

[mwkeefer]

Right on - I always add a few bags to an order when there is weight available, stocking up figuring they may eventually phase them out... they are good connectors in my experience. I've probably amassed 100 sets so far and therefore I would have been happy to spare you a bag

-Mike

 

[etard]

Now I am wondering if the Caps are the only things derating these to 25 volts. Cmon Hillhater, be a Thud and blow that thing in the name of science! Haha, just kidding bro. Although, I'm sure you have thought of soldering on some 63 volt Caps, huh?

 

[Hillhater]

Cmon Hillhater, be a Thud and blow that thing in the name of science! Haha, just kidding bro. ?

Done ! ... A pleasure to serve you sir, !!
well not exactly blown up, but it sure stopped working.
I dont know why, as i had not yet done any more than "rolling road" testing, ...but it has stopped responding and only "jitters" the motor when powered up.
no visible smoke or flames, and since the vendor has agreed to replace it, i dont intend to tear it apart to see what happened.
It may have been me playing with the "brake" programming and other settings at random ?
Ah well, waiting for the mail man again !