Hub motor More power for coffee trike

[charliness1981]

Seriously I don't know,

 

[Sunder]

It's 3am here, and I can't sleep due to jet lag (Hi, Anyone from Tel Aviv!), but I don't see that anyone has tried to offer a systematic debugging technique to eliminate problems. So here's my best shot in a sleep deprived stupor.

1. Invest in a small multi-meter. Most electronics places will sell you a cheap one for the price of two coffees ($5-10). Heck. With that trike, they might even trade.

2. Check the VOLTAGE at the battery: (a) when stopped (b) when spinning freely (wheel off ground), (c) when riding on the flats (d) when riding up a hill.

3. Post those voltages here.

If the voltage drops significantly between a and b, you may have a phase wiring issue.

If there is a big drop between b and c, or c and d, the battery might not be up to the task.

If the voltage drop is minimal, then you might have too much friction somewhere - wheels rubbing, misaligned, etc, or else the controller is rolling back the power too early for some reason.

-----------------------------------------
As a separate activity, if you're brave, reuse the multi-meter from above. If you're not brave, go to your electronics store, offer everyone a free coffee, and once they've started drinking it, ask if you can borrow a clamp on ammeter for 10 minutes. These things are generally $80+ depending on quality, so not worth buying to do diagnosis unless you're doing it all the time.

1. Disconnect the red wire between the battery and the controller.

2. Connect the negative probe of the multimeter to the battery, and the positive probe to the controller. This may take some creativity, or another person to help. It is likely you will get a big spark when you first connect. DO NOT hold onto the bare metal of the probes by hand, or ouchie time will occur.

3. Switch to CURRENT measuring mode (amps).

4. Lift the wheel off the ground, and slowly ramp up to full throttle. Record the highest sustained current.

If it's more than 2-3amps, you may have a phase wiring problem. If the phase wires are wrong, chances are you will blow the fuse on the multimeter, since most are designed to only handle 10amps (unless you managed to charm your way into a clamp on style). Ramping up slowly might allow you to back off at 8-9a, which would already indicate a problem.

Post back here any results you can get, and we can stop speculating, and start speculating with science!

 

[gogo]

If I understand correctly your Kelly controller can pull 120A peak battery current but your battery and BMS can not handle that.

Kelly rates their controllers by phase current, so 120A for this one. I think he said it had a 60A battery limit.

Post back here any results you can get, and we can stop speculating, and start speculating with science!

I don't have the chance to drive a lot with a kelly, the short it's working on flat it's going good for half miles after its stop yesterday I send back all kit, I test just before I packed all, the controller turn on,but anything

Science rules! I think he sent the kit back before we got to the fun part.

 

[charliness1981]

IHello, I want say thank you so much guys for the different help, for me all this is very complex, it's not my domain.it's very difficult to understand the power, watts , amps. I looking the brand amsterdamer.fr, they do the true cargo bike it's made in Netherlands. They use mid drive 750w with nexus 8.

Is it make sense?
do you think it's the good solution for me to use 1000w with the nexus 8 or 11?

 

[mettzman]

Honestly you don't need 8 speeds and I'm not sure if a Nexus would handle 750lbs. Seems like more problems in the future, possibly. The Brute should handle but it is going to want a lot of pedaling from a stop. It's going to want all 60amps everytime your starting out, gaining momentum. Also you would need to keep your momentum up when approaching a hill. Otherwise it should settle at about 35amps when you're cruising at speed. Point is you are going to suck up some amps when starting out. Your controller can handle it but the Battery may be complaining as well as the wires coming from the motor(too small?)
In the first video it sounds about right for that much weight, the motor wants 3mph first to start smoothly ideally.
The mid drive idea is not a bad idea, if you go that route, don't worry about a Nexus or 10 speeds...start with a few really low gears, even a really slow single speed wheel(20tooth cog). A mid drive can "pedal" faster than you can so you will actually get a higher top speed from a single low gear than if you were just pedaling.
If you stay with the Brute, consider a smaller wheel(20" or 24") This is like the mid drive slow gearing in a smaller wheel. A big wheel really wants those amps to get going!

Remember, volts * amps = watts. Watt ratings for motors are just an estimate. Most motors can do 1500-2000watts for a short time, too long though and things heat up.

You ultimately need torque, so a smaller wheel or low geared mid drive is best. Less amps to do the same job since you don't care about fast speed. All of us here have to choose speed vs torque from the max power our battery can give. Both use a lot of power, whether its light and fast or heavy and slow...and hills are a challenge for any bike. If you have to stop a lot then you need twice the power that you normally need when cruising along.

Water damage should not hurt that motor too much...

 

[Mundo]

I agree with the Mid-Drive and a large single speed freewheel.
Considering you are after torque, not speed.
I don't know how large they come, here's a link to 24 tooth.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA40F1T87646

I'm sure there are other options for freewheels as well....

 

[dogman dan]

Mid drive fine, no need for the nexus though, if you can get it cheaper with a 7 speed. You just need that big (low) rear gear.

seems to me, your load is a bit heavy for IGH, but I'm no expert on those.

 

[charliness1981]

Hello everyone,

I have some updates for the kit crystallite from the company let me know what do you thinks please.

I was informed there’s motor wire damage where the wires enter the axle again…..I’m guessing .... gave you the details of what we found today after letting me know, but if not, he willtomorrow. They haven’t hooked everything up yet so that “may” not be the only problem, but they’ll get the wires replaced and go from there…..but I bet it works after that.

 

They documented everything via video from opening the box to the wire damage, and I’ll have them document everything working when finished with the repair just for your records.

 

Thanks,

 

[mettzman]

Great! Let us know how it goes...

 

[charliness1981]

Hi everyone

Now 2 month my business it's shutdown.
Do you know someone in tenneessee or close to Nashville he s can help please. I receive back my all kit today. I set up all together and you know what?? same problem I'm very frustrated ,my wallet too.
Need help.

 

[charliness1981]

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?search_id=egosearch


Hi everyone

Now 2 month my business it's shutdown.
Do you know someone in tenneessee or close to Nashville he s can help please. I receive back my all kit today. I set up all together and you know what?? same problem I'm very frustrated ,my wallet too.
Need help.

 

[nutnspecial]

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?author_id=50726&sr=posts

I think you meant to post a link to YOUR previous posts? ^^^

Other than that, I can't help [strike]either.[/strike]


edit/ "either" was in reference to a post by amberwolf that preceded mine (now gone); not your current or previous thread op.

 

[dogman dan]

Well,,, did your coffee bike get lighter? If not wouldn't things still be the same?

It would be at least interesting, to see how the kit runs on a regular bike at this point. If it runs shitty with only 300 pounds or less of total weight, then you do have a problem with the motor, the controller, or something.

I still wonder if your battery is up to providing the wattage you expect, if it's sagging under load, then you may only have 1000w of power, which would never haul the weight of your coffee bike, as a 26" hub motor.

 

[charliness1981]

hi.
this the video to kit crystalite phoenix 2 with a controller kelly 60 amps, after last repair, on the ramp it's work, on a road same troubleshoot,

https://youtu.be/I-iyaOt8pzs

i have one question guys.

If you all wires is cuting inside the wheel, the wheel can continue to turn with some troubleshoot ???

 

[charliness1981]

What do you mean by fraud

Isn't the Brute 4840 motor the standard H3540 motor just renamed? Them calling it a 2000W motor would be fraud imo. Still, it shouldn't have a problem even with short 3% grades. He's got to have something else wrong.

 

[wesnewell]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud
The H3540 motor is not rated as a 2000W motor. At most it would be rated no more than 1500W and legit dealers would probably rate it at 1200W, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the problem you are having. I'm assuming that the problem is that the motor stops operating after a short distance. It appears to me from the video that the battery bms is cutting power to the controller. I also don't understand why you have a 60A controller when a 30A would be plenty and place a lot less strain on the battery pack and motor. With a H3540 motor, 48V 20ah battery pack, and a 25A controller on a 772lb bike with rider, you should be able to go at least 25mph on level ground pulling only 25A from the battery pack with the motor never overheating for 20 miles. When the motor stops working, unplug the battery pack and then plug it back in. If it starts working again even for just a minute, then the battery pack is shutting you off and it's either defective or not capable of outputing the amperage requested from the controller.

 

[charliness1981]

Why on a ramp is working?
they just change the battery bms,
I have kelly controller set up in 60 amps, because the controlller 4840 doesn't give a torque necessary for my request, so i swap my 4840 and my display for a kelly controller.
i can say with the 4840 is working half weight and not the kelly

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud
The H3540 motor is not rated as a 2000W motor. At most it would be rated no more than 1500W and legit dealers would probably rate it at 1200W, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the problem you are having. I'm assuming that the problem is that the motor stops operating after a short distance. It appears to me from the video that the battery bms is cutting power to the controller. I also don't understand why you have a 60A controller when a 30A would be plenty and place a lot less strain on the battery pack and motor. With a H3540 motor, 48V 20ah battery pack, and a 25A controller on a 772lb bike with rider, you should be able to go at least 25mph on level ground pulling only 25A from the battery pack with the motor never overheating for 20 miles. When the motor stops working, unplug the battery pack and then plug it back in. If it starts working again even for just a minute, then the battery pack is shutting you off and it's either defective or not capable of outputing the amperage requested from the controller.

 

[wesnewell]

When you have the wheel off the ground it only takes a couple of amps to get to full speed. Under load takes more amperage. I think the battery bms is cutting you off but it's hard to tell what's wrong without actually being there. It could be you have the the phases wrong. You could have a bad hall sensor. Or it could be a battery problem. If it's a hall problem you could go to a sensorless controller, as I did after blowing 2 of the 3 hall sensors on one of my motors. If it's a battery problem, well you'll need a more powerful battery pack. You need to find someone locally to actually test things that know what they are doing. Just watching the video can't tell what's wrong. But since you've never put your location in your profile, no one knows even what country you are in , much less what city.

 

[dogman dan]

It appears to be running smooth in the garage But flaky connections can cause problems with the first bump. Though the weight of it is punishing the motor, it should run ok on the flat ground.

What do the flashy lights on the controller indicate? As you rode, the green stopped and it was flashing red. Then at about 8 and a half min, the red stopped too. Did you turn off the system at that point?

If your battery bms is popping, you would have to unplug, then replug the battery to restart the bms. But if your battery is sagging till the controller lvc hits, it would usually turn itself back on, giving an on off on off effect.

Is there a display? if so, what does it do? does it go dark and stay dark? Does it just blink?

You have a high power controller, can your battery stand it? The battery looks kind of small in the vid.

 

[charliness1981]

hi

someone is passing yesterday, is 99% sure the probleme is because the controller have a bad configuration
is it make sense.

 

[dogman dan]

Test that for sure with a watt meter. Bad as your problems are, time to spend the 20 bucks or less on one.

If it runs smooth no load, but seems to have no power or run rough under load, that is likely to be the wrong combo. Hard to believe the company your bought it from would have set it up that way though.

To test this with a watt meter, run it no load and see how many watts or amps it pulls. It should be very low with no load. If it runs at 10 amps for example, that's way too high for no load, and means it is running in a false positive combo.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-LCD-Watt-Meter-Battery-Voltage-Current-Power-Analyzer-Tester-60V-100A-RC-/281826900593?hash=item419e313a71:g:NZoAAOSwl9BWHPwg

 

[Chalo]

Your pedal drive is geared too high, and your motor drive is also geared too high. I have pedaled loads of up to 3500 pounds without power assist, and it all comes down to matching the power you have available with the speed that amount of power will support.

It's easy to lower your pedal gearing-- just switch to a smaller front sprocket, a larger rear sprocket, or both. To lower the effective gearing of your electrical system, you can make the hub motor wheel smaller, or you can lower the system voltage, or both.

The fundamental problem you are dealing with is that you're using a motor system whose power to speed ratio is appropriate for a utility bicycle, but your trike needs its power delivered at a much lower speed than that.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep,, 26" hub motor wheel is a worst possible choice for the weight he's carrying. But it should be able to run on flat ground, without cutting out. Which is why I suspect the old he's got the 2 or 3 problems going at once thing.

Damaged wires at the hub solved now, on to the other 2 problems. One I think, is his battery sags like mad when asked to dish out 60 amps. So the bike shuts off to save the battery.

The hill is always going to be a problem, till he gets rid of that 26" wheel.

 

[charliness1981]

the sellers continues to say the kit is work for the pedelec and trike.

Your pedal drive is geared too high, and your motor drive is also geared too high. I have pedaled loads of up to 3500 pounds without power assist, and it all comes down to matching the power you have available with the speed that amount of power will support.

It's easy to lower your pedal gearing-- just switch to a smaller front sprocket, a larger rear sprocket, or both. To lower the effective gearing of your electrical system, you can make the hub motor wheel smaller, or you can lower the system voltage, or both.

The fundamental problem you are dealing with is that you're using a motor system whose power to speed ratio is appropriate for a utility bicycle, but your trike needs its power delivered at a much lower speed than that.

 

[charliness1981]

hi, i wait the guys who is looking mybike saturday, he order the watt meter,
i wait patiently. thank you for all answer it's help me

Yep,, 26" hub motor wheel is a worst possible choice for the weight he's carrying. But it should be able to run on flat ground, without cutting out. Which is why I suspect the old he's got the 2 or 3 problems going at once thing.

Damaged wires at the hub solved now, on to the other 2 problems. One I think, is his battery sags like mad when asked to dish out 60 amps. So the bike shuts off to save the battery.

The hill is always going to be a problem, till he gets rid of that 26" wheel.