HubMonster hits 107mph on the flats on page 6

J

John in CR

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Here's my first video of HubmonsterHE, the first 6 minutes ride home from by buddy's shop on the other side of our capital city. Sorry no music, this is a learning process for me. There's alway too much traffic on that circumnavigation road and it's a bit bumpy, so no max speed stuff, no aero tuck, only short bursts of full throttle, and voltage started at only 80V, so not a full charge of my 20s pack, not to mention I had my charger tools and heavy new helmet that put my total load over 400lbs. Max speed in the video according to my GPS was 57mph and my CA said 59 if I recall correctly, so we'll go with the lower number.
[youtube]ezANEF1UEVU[/youtube]


Here's the GPS data. Is there a useful way to do that for next time?
GPS data Zapote toward home 1st 6 min 7 Mar 2013.JPG
 
Nice vid John, like to see the high powered runs and the power wheelies
i presume thats on the 'super v ' bike though? Looks more suited to wheelies
than the cargo bike... Look forward to more anyways...

KiM
 
No power wheelies AJ. We'll see after I get my CA3's and dial in the torque throttle. I'm only running just under 16kw peak input. I had more throttle confidence with my programmable SteveO controller and was pumping juice that peaked at 30kw input at 20mph. It took care to avoid power wheelies then. I've been running it more docile.

Stesteste,
Here's how it is right now. A Cannondale SuperV with DIY swingarm that extends about 10" longer than the original, which houses 10ah of 20s 20c RC Lipo. In front I've got 5ah of 25C Zippy and 4.5ah of 50C nanotechs I also made a saddle extension, and filled most of the main tube with a solid plug of epoxy fiberglass since the previous owner repaired a crack at the shock mount downhill racing. The motor is my high efficiency 6 phase motor that I call HubmonsterHE. The top speed I've seen twice on a fresh charge with voltage sagging to 75V has been 65mph (105kph). That's running a pair of 18fet controllers with 4110's, which I didn't quite mod equally and one peaks at 95A and the other at 115A I picked up some high voltage 24 fet controllers with matched 4115 mosfets from Zombies. They're programmable, so I'll be able to properly dial in performance, and I'm working out how to install the additional the additional 20ah of 12s on the bike for a 60% increase in voltage. That won't equate to a 60% increase in top speed without serious aero treatment, but a 30% increase puts me past the human powered record of Sam Whittingham. I weigh about 270lbs right now, so imagine what you cyclist weight guys could do. :mrgreen:
 
You got me laughing pretty hard in satisfaction. Whatever power level that is is something I could live with. I may just be putting out a little more juice than that...

I'm thrilled. Thanks for the vid. edit: lil' bit of regen action at that last part of the clip?
 
hillzofvalp said:
You got me laughing pretty hard in satisfaction. Whatever power level that is is something I could live with. I may just be putting out a little more juice than that...

I'm thrilled. Thanks for the vid. edit: lil' bit of regen action at that last part of the clip?
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LOL, thanks! Everything I've posted will be proven conservative and factual before summer, even the stuff about ventilation. It turns out my buddy has a dense smoke machine for tracking down A/C and exhaust leaks so we even get video of the centrifugal fan effect. :mrgreen:

Yes, going ventilated means you'll be able to dial up acceleration with more current despite the slightly larger tire. The larger tire and higher voltage will give you a prime band that reaches to higher speed. Keep in mind I was at WOT maybe 30 seconds in total the entire 6 min clip. To ride faster you really want to pay some real attention to aero or high speed goes through battery capacity in a hurry.

John
 
jansevr said:
its awesome to finally see video of the hubmonster in action! for 400lbs at only 80v, 57mph is impressive!
Click to expand...

Not really, my cargo bike goes that fast. It just takes a lot longer to get there. 8) . Voltage was sagging to about 74V, and that wasn't top speed anyway. I don't (pretty much can't) ride around at WOT. I'll try to get you guys some highway stuff today.
 
Here's a hill climb on the highway a couple of miles from my house. Damn camera aboard plus a helmet is going to get me killed, because I don't ride like this...well, not quite like this. :mrgreen: There's definitely some risk compensation happening. My GPS went wacko on me, since I know I didn't hit multiple 130mph peaks. My CA tells me I only got to 61mph before I backed off. Still way too much morning traffic for a good run. I don't like be forced over to that narrow shoulder. This climb peaks between 7 and 8% grade. It's a nice run in light traffic, because even when they aren't slowed by others I'm generally the one passing since I have no problem maintaining above the 50mph speed limit (80kph) going up or the 90kph approaching it. 8)
[youtube]OHPTgN0zGKA[/youtube]
 
I love the "merge" at 1:20. hha.

You need to stay alive until I get my motor! I think your offering is quite different. the high kv paired with a couple 4110 controller seems like an easy way to do 60-70mph for $1000-1200 (for us small motorcycle builders).
 
hillzofvalp said:
I love the "merge" at 1:20. hha.

You need to stay alive until I get my motor! I think your offering is quite different. the high kv paired with a couple 4110 controller seems like an easy way to do 60-70mph for $1000-1200 (for us small motorcycle builders).
Click to expand...

Jay is receiving the motors, so it's yours dead or alive. The car merging onto the road had 0% chance of clipping me. I had plenty of maneuvering room and speed. The real risk was someone doing a quick lane change, especially where traffic did the braking for no reason accordion thing right around the merger point.

BTW, we're not doing the 18s anymore. It's dual 24s with irfb4110's for under $300 for the pair. I don't want to encourage using them on emotos, because that will just lead to bigger and bigger loads, and that's the route to low performance and heat issues from asking too much and pumping high power. Anyone with a bigger load than yours gets pushed toward mid-drive use with some gear reduction. Didn't you notice how I grilled you? You were borderline and the commitment to ventilate is what swayed me.

John
 
:) I think I've run about 50 CNC operations for this project already.. another one (and important one) is welcome. I Would like to start modeling the vent holes. Could you give me some close-ish dimensions of the hub?

Edit: I am in contact with an nasa/boeing aerospace engineer about another project. I could mention to him the design and my limited theory and see how he would recommend shaping the holes. I'm guessing that it is impossible to determine without modeling and repeated testing however.
 
Wow John, impressive! That's a good bit of power to climb at that pace! I am dying to get one of your motors for a commuter! Problem is, I have to finish my billy goat project first!
 
hillzofvalp said:
:) I think I've run about 50 CNC operations for this project already.. another one (and important one) is welcome. I Would like to start modeling the vent holes. Could you give me some close-ish dimensions of the hub?

Edit: I am in contact with an nasa/boeing aerospace engineer about another project. I could mention to him the design and my limited theory and see how he would recommend shaping the holes. I'm guessing that it is impossible to determine without modeling and repeated testing however.
Click to expand...

Definitely get his input. What is the narrowest opening you can do with the machine? Slots to create a blade shape will be the ideal in terms of flow, reverse curve to pull the best pressure and keep the noise down. Very narrow slots can make it really repel sand and grit from entering the exhaust.

Flow volume is important, but I believe what you do with that flow makes and even bigger difference, and accelerating it to create a faster and more turbulent flow at the windings cools much better. Also, creating flow through the gap with one sided intake and exhaust out of the other is worth the reduced flow.

Exhaust "Holes" don't go on the side of the motor. They belong AT the perimeter next to the magnets on the steel side. We have to open a motor first to see the space available. Close-ish isn't going to work, and it really does have to be AT the perimeter or you'd get little if any flow thru the gap.
 
hillzofvalp said:
.005" is the narrowest opening. .06" is about the narrowest practical opening.
Click to expand...

That's awesome. I didn't realize the cutting bits could be so small. 3-5mm will probably be fine. You do realize there at the corner with the angled cut is probably something like a 10mm cut to get through the steel? That's good though because you'll be able to get a nice naca blade shape and a nice look. Then on the aluminum cover you can go as thin as possible and do a lot of slots and no way anything big can get in.
 
If finally had the GoPro aboard during a worthy ride I do every morning, the trip to the market. Didn't have the GPS and the CA wasn't reset all week, but the top speed had to be about 60. I don't usually ride that fast on these roads, but after embarrassing the moto that pulled out, he had some idea back there that he could catch me on top speed, so I got back on the throttle. It wasn't much of a moto, but I do outweigh it's rider by about double, he tried for longer than usual. Typically they give up quickly when I leave them eating my ions so quickly. This one insisted on pulling in front of me, so I'm on the brake and slowing while he's at WOT as the rolling start of the race, which ended badly for him seconds later. :lol:

[youtube]fc34zt4P17s[/youtube]

My CA3's will be here in a few days. I can't wait to tame the throttle and dial up the power and voltage. It's going to require a special vehicle to outrun anywhere below 60mph.

I can only imagine what my bike would be like with one of you sub 200lb guys aboard. :shock:

John

PS- Much of the noise is from the front tire, which is about all I hear till I brake and the front disc is noisy. The intermittent noise and some of the hum while riding is noise transferred through the frame of the bike that I can't really hear while riding. I can hear some sound during electric braking, but not much.
 
hillzofvalp said:
frocking awesome. Cannot wait. My birthday is coming up, too, John.
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Imagine if you had a bike 70-80lb less instead of the equivalent load I'm running. I explain till I'm blue in the face, but until you lightweight guys load a bunch of weight in a backpack and ride your existing ebikes, the effect of load doesn't click. If it did, you'd be figuring out ways to hack a bunch of weight off of your MB5.
 
I just missed out on an original tank. MY effort to reduce weighit is:

1)no tank
2)no carrying around charger unless traveling
3)none of the original shit
4)milling hub for vents
5)carbon fiber
6)milling out aluminum
7)radial tires
8)cast aluminum wheels

It might come out under 180 lbs if the swingarm isn't too heavy. I'm 195lbs. It'll be fine. My go pro video will please you.
 
Damn dude... You really haul ass with this motor. It seems like you need to be heavy in order to not eat dirt after you give the motor a boot full of throttle. Don't hate on me, John as I try to compare my hub to yours :D :p , but my H4065 at 20S and 40 amps almost left me on my ass after I gave it a boot full at after waiting for a green light. I am only 140 pounds and my bike is probably 70 pounds and I am running some pretty meek power levels compared to you, I can only imagine what your motor would be like in a 20 something inch rim and a combined weight of 210 pounds or so. Can you say, rocket ship? 8)
Keep on biking man, can't wait to see what you will do with the CA v3 and such in the future.
 
Trackman417 said:
Damn dude... You really haul ass with this motor. It seems like you need to be heavy in order to not eat dirt after you give the motor a boot full of throttle. Don't hate on me, John as I try to compare my hub to yours :D :p , but my H4065 at 20S and 40 amps almost left me on my ass after I gave it a boot full at after waiting for a green light. I am only 140 pounds and my bike is probably 70 pounds and I am running some pretty meek power levels compared to you, I can only imagine what your motor would be like in a 20 something inch rim and a combined weight of 210 pounds or so. Can you say, rocket ship? 8)
Keep on biking man, can't wait to see what you will do with the CA v3 and such in the future.
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Yeah, I'm looking forward to the CA3 torque throttle. My package got hung up in Customs...ARG!

With your weight I can only imagine the fun it would be. You wouldn't want it with a normal MTB CG placement and wheelbase. You'd want the CG more forward and lower to take advantage. Look at where Luke put his seat, but you only need to go to that extreme if you want that extreme of a ride. If the torque throttle works as well as I hope, then whether you lift the wheel or not would be your conscious decision made by how much you turn the throttle.

The problem with normal speed throttle with big power is that when you turn the throttle the motor tries to instantly go to that speed and draws whatever amps it can to do it. I have enough mass and a long enough wheelbase with a low and forward enough saddle position to control it. A 140lb friend of mine did not. He begged and pleaded to give it a try.. He didn't flip it, but was damn close on every single launch. When he got back he told me I was irresponsible for letting him ride it. :? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I expect the torque throttle to change all that, and make handing the bike over for test rides not such a risk.

The motors I used for 4 years in 20" wheels were essentially the equivalent of an H40-100. They were fun when that's what I had, and with my 110lb daughter they're pretty quick, but it's really an night and day difference stepping up to HubMonster. To me launches are unpleasant, because even with care and focus it's a jerk from 0 to instantly whatever the minimum speed is, however, it's worth every jerk to start for the feel while riding. It's just astonishingly quick. Following someone and then deciding you want to be in front of them and doing it so quickly is incredibly fun and satisfying. I may not be the quickest thing on the road but close. With you aboard you'd be hard pressed to find anything quicker from 5-10mph up to past 50. It's a nearly free amusement park ride, and as long as I ride with care and courtesy, only showing off the incredible quickness when it's appropriate, it's the best form of advertising there is for our cause...especially with Humpty Dumpty doing it on what looks like a tiny bike under him.. :mrgreen:

John
 
I watched the video and I wrote several paragraphs about how much I want it and what great advertising I'll be when I can finally build my dream EV, but you don't want to read that. Bottom line: this motor is exciting, and I'm definitely excited to hear how it handles with the CAv3.

One consideration is that I intend to run a serial-hybrid setup... now, I could fiddle with a 3-way throttle resistor every stop.... but I would be disappointed if I end up lurching a lot from every stop even with careful throttling. It'd definitely make it awkward to park if I either had to waddle around with my feet or lurch-brake into position. I hope that once you get the CAv3 configured you report back and let us know how it works. :D

Thanks for the vids. =)
 
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