HubMonster hits 107mph on the flats on page 6

[Doctorbass]

Now that I'm in the mood for challenges, why you post something for me to top? 8)

Would be great, but at the moment i have too many projects going on. i'm still proud of my speed record in 2009 but i think that you and Luke have now the hat about max ebike speed and i'm proud of you guys.

I'm more concentrating my time and energy on my Zero S motorcycle mod wich is alot safer at those speed :wink:

Doc

 

[John in CR]

I was talking about your Zero. I'm not concerned about your ebikes, because mine were always faster and I just let you have your glory. I started using only motorcycles as competition for my ebike, that is legally a bicycle, for over a year now. This latest run topped Brammo's production emoto, so now I'm looking for a reason to try for faster. I don't really like going fast, so I need a reason. Above was the first time I held it at WOT for more than a few seconds, since I corrected the wiring back in June, so I didn't know the top speed.

Let me know when your Zero passes 172kph on flat road, but don't strain yourself doing it, because I don't want you taking another spill. What are your winter plans?....Put a ski on the front of the Zero and a fat spiked knobby tire on the rear?

You should hop on your Zero and ride it down to Costa Rica. We're in the great weather now through at least early April. We'll ride to the top of some mountains and then down to the beach to do some electric watercraft stuff. It sure beats the cold and snow. Even our batteries don't like the cold, and nothing on our electrics likes the salt on the roads.

John

 

[steveo]

what do you guys think about this frame for the hubmonster?

 

[h0tr0d]

what do you guys think about this frame for the hubmonster?

Hubmonster, mid drive!!!

 

[speedmd]

Hell with chopping it all up for a hub monster, I'll take it just as is in the photo. Looks like a ton of fun! Seriously, nice looking frame for a build if you can find one.

 

[grindz145]

Why not use a scooter frame like a small frame with a swingarm conversion kit. The ergos will be better, and performance suspension is available. That little dirtbike will forever be not legal, look like a toy, and be uncomfortable IMO.

 

[speedmd]

look like a toy, and be uncomfortable IMO

Seriously! They are totally plush! 100 and 1 suspension settings also. You can fly through the air like superman with one. Need to ride one before you say they are uncomfy. Looks like a 140 -250cc size by the photo but it is hard to tell for certain. Not small by any measure if so.

 

[grindz145]

look like a toy, and be uncomfortable IMO

Seriously! They are totally plush! 100 and 1 suspension settings also. You can fly through the air like superman with one. Need to ride one before you say they are uncomfy. Looks like a 140 -250cc size by the photo but it is hard to tell for certain. Not small by any measure if so.

get real dude, that's a toy.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

look like a toy, and be uncomfortable IMO

Seriously! They are totally plush! 100 and 1 suspension settings also. You can fly through the air like superman with one. Need to ride one before you say they are uncomfy. Looks like a 140 -250cc size by the photo but it is hard to tell for certain. Not small by any measure if so.

that is a kids bike..
not a full size dirtbike..
uncomfortable as in ergonomically too small for an adult..
not uncomfortable as in suspension..

 

[steveo]

Heres the actual picture of the bike

It still runs but needs a chain

Its a 125cc pitbike

It is probably a bit small.. however ill trade for a old game console i no longer use.. to just trade no $$

The suspension and the brakes alone are way better then any bike ive had most likely..

Worst case i can repair and sell..

 

[speedmd]

They make a 50cc pit bike and a 125cc, and see many listed at 140cc which share the same wheelbase as the 125. They show two different size wheels also. The one you pictured at the top of the page looks to be the larger of the two with a 17" front wheel. 1220mm wheelbase I see listed a bunch of places. Not as small as a pit bike, but would be still be way too small for a 6 foot tall adult. I saw a few listed with larger motors also. Looks like a great bike for a kid or smaller rider starting out.

 

[John in CR]

What are the tire sizes for the red one to get a better sense of scale? If it's a 17" in front like SpeedMd says, then go for it. You thinking for real off-road or light trail and street?

BTW, no new vids from me, because I got the moto wheel on the front, but the drum brake is coming up way short on stopping power and I don't know why. I've only had it up to about 150kph so far, but I'm loving the confidence of the moto tire. It has far less road noise than my old balloon Kenda Flame too. Plus the competition titanium Monster forks are awesome and a big step up from the regular Monsters I had on before.

The only thing I'm not liking is this nearly straight MTB handlebar. The new fork and tire lifted the front a couple of inches, and the increased trail combined with this MTB type steering feels way too sluggish for me. That type of bars must go better with steeper geometries, so the bike doesn't get twitchy, but as-is at anything below about 20mph it feels like I really have to force the bars. It's like on rails at speed, so I'll leave it for now.

 

[speedmd]

Hi John

Can you slide up the fork tubes in the triple clamps to get a steeper angle in the front without bottoming the lower legs into the clamp on big bumps? You may be able to grab a degree or more without issue. When shallowing out the fork angle you need to increase rake(offset) to get to a suitable caster angle. Forks with a forward offset axle will help. It is counter intuitive but works. I am not a fan of straight bars either.

cheers

 

[gogo]

… the drum brake is coming up way short on stopping power and I don't know why. …

If your drum brake is a double leading-shoe type, the adjustment between the shoes is critical. My BMW had that type and when adjusted properly had better feel and controllability than any hydraulic brake I've ever used and was very easy to keep on the hairy edge of lock-up. I actually preferred them to hydraulic.

 

[John in CR]

… the drum brake is coming up way short on stopping power and I don't know why. …

If your drum brake is a double leading-shoe type, the adjustment between the shoes is critical. My BMW had that type and when adjusted properly had better feel and controllability than any hydraulic brake I've ever used and was very easy to keep on the hairy edge of lock-up. I actually preferred them to hydraulic.

edit--- Mine are single leading edge type, but I've determined that mine are set up wrong and I'm actually ending up with no leading edge at all with the cam trying to force the trailing edge to pinch, which simply doesn't work. With rear drums the rotation of the cam seems to be a standard, but with the front drums the can be either. Unfortunately my test by hand was insufficient. Oh well, that's what I get for taking the installation and parts to full finish with paint before road testing. That's the first and last time I'll do that. I was just trying to skip my typical year or 2 of leaving things ugly and unpainted.

The rework will give me some time to rethink my rear disc plan. It's adding too much weight to my already long and heavy unsprung weight on the swingarm. I'd rather fill the rest of the battery compartment with batteries. A bike rear disc brake will have to do, but I need to pick up some bike discs rotors with the 2 part construction and make adapters to fit the 3 bolt scooter disc rotor pattern. It wouldn't pass DOT, but regen does the bulk of my braking work, so it's an acceptable risk for me. Where I really need the rear mechanical brake is very low speed stuff with loose gravel or sand on the pavement that's put the bike and usually me too on the ground a few times. A rear disc will also be backup in case of a failure or fade out of the front brake, on the few descents so steep that the braking force of 4kw of regen charge current isn't enough for a safe speed.

 

[agniusm]

Did someone done some research on controller efficiency with this motor? I mean motor has 93% peak efficiency so what about those greentime controllers? What kind off efficiencies they have and would there be measurable difference in using sinewave controllers with 95% efficiency if they are at all compatible?

 

[liveforphysics]

Did someone done some research on controller efficiency with this motor? I mean motor has 93% peak efficiency so what about those greentime controllers? What kind off efficiencies they have and would there be measurable difference in using sinewave controllers with 95% efficiency if they are at all compatible?

There is no inherent reason an hubmotor can't be very high efficiency. The highest efficiency traction drive systems in the world are already all hubmotors AFAIK (solar car racing motors). It's also not overly difficult for a controller to be >99% efficient. My guess is the larger inefficiency component of John's powertrain loss over the motor/wheel/tire/controller is simply the battery voltage sag.

You guys who have only experienced a cromotor or 540x series should not feel like you've got a good idea of how much torque a hubmotor bicycle can be equipped with. I've never even ridden this new monstrous and well design optimized version of motor yet, but I remember very well the torque his smaller version of scooter motor he had, and it was absurd torque. Riding a ragged-edge tuned 540x series felt gentle, a cromotor felt nice, but still nothing like the top-end pull offered by these scooter hubs.

What you guys have got to understand, is in China these hubs are pushing 3 people and a baby on a scooter down the highway at 60mph (for at least a few miles until the often under-spec'd batteries run out). This size motor was designed around carrying perhaps 3-4x the burden of a typical ebike hub.

They are in another class of performance for guys who want hubmotor ebike hotrods, and it's entirely possible they are also more efficient than a wide range of other options for sustained high-speeds.

At 107mph, you likely have the fastest electric bicycle in the world right now John. Deathbike is only running on a single size4 Sevcon right now pulling ~520A battery current of it's 28s pack, and it's current short-track gearing tops out about 95mph.

Soon you won't be the fastest though. For the electric drag racing event in WA, I'm going to outfit the bicycle with a PAIR of size6 sevcon's, running a 100C nano-tech pack, and I will be using a CO2 port in the motor's heatsink to deep-freeze it before the run.

 

[agniusm]

But the question still stands. I bet that there are such efficient systems but we leave competitions aside as we don't have bigass sponsors like they do and i bet those almost perfect systems could cost a house or two. I am no expert in this just driven by common sense. I came across these BAS300 sine controllers which look nice even at 400$ per unit and was wandering if there is huge difference in comparison to Chinese controllers of similar size?

 

[LockH]

Hola! Just read through this whole thread. Must say, in one recent PM w/Meistro John (aka Big J... about buying the guy a mship in the TERA outfit), I told him I need to brush up on my Española... but clearly I don't need to bring my spurs to maybe try out his electric stallion. Also emailed a guy I know at Johnson (in somewhere called Milwaukee... You've head of them I expect.) Sent him a link to this thread. My suggestion, now that he no longer has a "scooter" project, they might hire Big J? (Pay him fab amounts of dinero for "consulting" services, plus travelling the world of course.)

 

[hillzofvalp]

When I try larger tire, that will put me around 85mph. If I go up to 105.6V nominal.. then maybe 95mph. That'd be at about 450lbs. I need to wear flip flops to shed some weight

Did you consider using a 150/70-13 tire before going with the non-standard rim? Or was the goal to reduce weight? The 150/70-13 is 21.2" diameter.

 

[John in CR]

When I try larger tire, that will put me around 85mph. If I go up to 105.6V nominal.. then maybe 95mph. That'd be at about 450lbs. I need to wear flip flops to shed some weight

Did you consider using a 150/70-13 tire before going with the non-standard rim? Or was the goal to reduce weight? The 150/70-13 is 21.2" diameter.

For yours the route to go would be a smaller tire and up the voltage more.

I always run the smallest tire I can. The set of mag wheels I picked up were something that caught my eye, because they could so easily be modded to take HubMonsters. I really don't want to use it without a significantly lighter load to push, and since I've yet to get serious about weight loss, the idea of a big 2wd using HubMonsters keeps popping into my head.

With the batteries needed it would obviously be way into the motorcycle end of the spectrum, but I have 30 Nissan Leaf battery modules on the way which would be perfect. I'd build it with extra room in the battery bay, and go with 11 modules for normal use. That's over 60ah of 81V nominal for the small pack, and then have another 11 module range extender pack. If I build it as a low and sleek cruiser that keeps the maximum cross-sectional area to a minimum and pay attention to aero, then I should easily get 80mph using the larger wheels and 10% higher voltage than when I topped out at 66mph with my setup for the first year of testing. With the 4.9kwh pack I think I can end up at only 100-125lbs heavier total load than I have now, so despite the larger wheel I should be able to significantly reduce system stress from the level I ran the motor sealed, but still have more performance without setting the front controllers too high. The long range load would have 91lbs more in battery modules.

The Leaf modules lend themselves well to building them as removable/swappable packs, so I can also do a short range high performance alignment for showing off using 81V 13.5ah of the 65-130c Nanotechs in the same crate as my Leaf modules. That would get the total load down near the same as I'm running now, but with 2 HubMonsters instead of 1. That's sure to be able to catch some noise and fume lovers by surprise.

My job is to find the best equipment for economical prices and test the hell out of it with torturous loads, so you guys can be sure to get better performance with a reliable system. To take advantage you have to build to lighter total loads than I run. Now that I've made some changes putting a moto wheel on the front, I've pushed my bike up just over 150lbs, and it's definitely made a noticeable impact on performance. If performance is at the top of the list, keeping weight as low as possible is critical, because the less weight the higher you can set your controllers and vice versa.

 

[hillzofvalp]

I think there may very well be 10-15lbs of waste mass in my rear wheel. I think the dual hubmonsterHE would be best as a double wide variant with less cover metal. These things are beastly!

What other motor goodies are you hiding from the ES market? Idk how many you have sold, but maybe your relationship with the vendor is to a point where you can get custom motors?

 

[John in CR]

I think there may very well be 10-15lbs of waste mass in my rear wheel. I think the dual hubmonsterHE would be best as a double wide variant with less cover metal. These things are beastly!

What other motor goodies are you hiding from the ES market? Idk how many you have sold, but maybe your relationship with the vendor is to a point where you can get custom motors?

There might be that much extra weight to save if you include a narrower tire and trimming the width of the brake rotor mount, but you want to be careful going too far with the shell or axle....don't want to start Xlyte stupidity like snapping axles. I don't know about a double wide as it would get hard to fit, but take stator out to 100mm of lams and keep everything the same would be really interesting. That would boost inductance and lower Kv, so the same current handling would be an even easier load to help out the high voltage bargain controllers as well as enable a more typical size moto wheel. What I'm pushing them for though is a bicycle motor as well as larger diameter using their same approach of low pole count and 6 phase for the improved silence and efficiency.

Other motor goodies? I don't know, I'm not much on hyping before testing. If people want to build their own motor, I could do that, but I don't see a big enough market to pursue that one, especially when experienced Chinese do it so cheaply.