Im going to say something very controvertial. SPEED.

[Robocog]

The law is, 20 under only motor power. I say, that is good. The danger to the rider, is that the cars cut last minute, and turn into parking. The higher the speed, the bigger the bang, is you get nailed. I know what of I speak, I ride a hopped up raced out, trimmed down R1 1000.

I ALWAYS go a little faster than the prevailing cars. To stay SEEN. You don't have that same luxury on a bike. Hell, the speed limit on that strip, is 15mph, if you are a vehicle. And for good reason.

So, the urge to make all the tech go 30, as I have seen many times in print, makes a lot of banged heads. I am glad you have to be furiously peddling, to go faster than 20. That is damn fast, on an ebike.

So, I will go 25, but only when peddling. Which is a good rule, as I am using the bike like my old man scooter. I have heart failure, and getting home with help, is a godsend. And the mild exercise, is a lifesaver.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[MadRhino]

My street bike does 70+ mph comfortably.
I guess you disaprove

Yet it does handle better and brake shorter than your R1

In town, I do ride from point A to B faster and safer than your motorcycle every time and I do it all year long, sun, rain or snow. 8)

On ES, you will meet all kind of riders. They build what is good for them, not always at first try but many end up succeeding to have the ideal bike for their need.

 

[wesnewell]

The safest speed is the road speed limit. If that's 40 mph, then 40 mph is the safest speed, regardless of what you are riding. At 20 mph in a 40 mph speed limit street, you are a sitting still duck. the only safe place to ride 20 mph is in a 20 mph speed limit zone.

 

[st35326]

On part of my commute I do 55mph (for 2-3 miles) and own the lane when I do so. Having texting SUV drivers passing you at 55mph while you pedal along at 20mph is a recipe for disaster. I want this technology to disrupt so bring on the better batteries, brakes, frames and hubs.

Is there a more efficient means of powered transport than an ebike?

 

[MadRhino]

The safest speed is the road speed limit. If that's 40 mph, then 40 mph is the safest speed, regardless of what you are riding. At 20 mph in a 40 mph speed limit street, you are a sitting still duck. the only safe place to ride 20 mph is in a 20 mph speed limit zone.

The safest speed to ride is the speed that is keeping other users of the road at a safe distance. If there is someone ahead, the safe speed is to stay far enough behind to keep all the options for you to deal with any situation. Pass ahead at the next stop light and keep him far enough behind to let him have all the options. The closer you are to other vehicles around, the less options and time you have to escape a collision. Lots of users of the road are distracted, stupid or aggressive. When you are on a bike, you have to keep them at safe distance because they don't. Your own safety relies on your ability to do so. This safe distance does measure by your own performance in maneuverability, braking and acceleration as compared to the performance of the other users around. Then you have to add a safe margin for your own reaction delay, and road condition.

That is why some moves need to be tempered, and others have to be quick. Performance is an advantage in the hands of a rider who is using it wisely, but it is a danger in the hands of a fool.

 

[liveforphysics]

Well put madrhino.

 

[Ozzzz]

I guess it also relates to whether you see any value in a motorcycle license.
Just personally, my hub at around.. 20-25mph is enough, otherwise I too would take my Yammy

Whilst on the yammy, i'd hope everyone else I met on a road going at road speed was trained (ie licensed).
Maybe we need a lower level public cost /registration / license process for ebikers who wanna go faster.

The 750w is a good cutoff.
I find its quick enough to add safety, perhaps not as much as going traffic speed but that is a big jump in speed/ skill.

I'd love a road speed limit+ ebike.. one day.. but if on road, i'd be really happy to be able to easily comply & register it, as a trained biker.

 

[dogman dan]

My own experience is this.

If you have to be in the lane, better keep up. So if the cars are doing 40 and you are doing 20, you have a big problem unless you have a generous bike lane, like 5 feet wide. And even then, if you let one car pass you that you did not eyball, you are a fool. If its rural, and the traffic light, then you can always ride the ditch if you must to save your life. But in the city, better keep up.

So if you do have that nice bike lane, then the next most dangerous thing you can do is ride 30-35 mph. You still are not keeping up, but you can't stop in time either when, not if, they turn into your path. And nothing is dumber than riding 35 mph in a bike lane that makes it certain that you will get doored.

The single most dangerous vehicle I've owned in my life was a moped that went 35 mph. Cars thought slow, but I had tweaked the carb, and I was not slow. I got right crossed almost daily. but it was fun, the time I stopped in time by kicking a gigantic dent in a guys car.

One reason I like my new scoot so much is it keeps up on the freeway. Nothing wrong with my old bike routes, but now I can go much farther in an hour when I want to, and definitely keep up. I ride for space. If they are clogging up in front of me and catching up behind me, I hit 85 mph long enough to clear the idiots. then I roll it back till they catch up with me, and then go again. Speed enforcement here is so lame, I can freely ride whatever speed keeps me safest.

So now I'm equipped, to ride slower on an e bike, or keep up on the scoot. Both completely legal. People talk about the cost of license and insurance for the motorcycle. Well, the motorcycle endorsement costs same as a car license without it. And man,, that 8 bucks a month to insure my scoot is really busting my balls.

 

[greg176]

My wife commuted to work on a 1973 Yamaha RD350 when we were first married. She complained to me that it was misfiring and she wasn't able to keep up with traffic. I took it for a test ride and it didn't misfire till 90 mph. Cleaned the points for her and she was good to go. You have to go pretty quick to keep up with that Montreal traffic.

 

[ScooterMan101]

@ Robocog and anyone else that thinks that slower speeds are safer .

That 20 Mph you mention is only safer ( slightly ) on very busy City Streets, and a neighborhood with Streets that have rows of houses with driveways , where people ... back out and/or pull out of such driveway's without looking both ways down the street.

I also ride a Sport Bike ( 600cc ) that is very fast, 92 + mph in only 2nd gear, and I am not even at redline at that speed in second gear ,
on Busy City Streets and neighborhoods you are right about it being safer to go slower.

However ....

I have found out , several times, that out where I like to ride ( Back Country Roads, and expressways ) it is better to go faster, much faster ,
a crash is worse the faster you go , but that is for Cars / Trucks / Busses / Motorcycles, etc . as well .

The advantage for going faster on a bicycle than 20 mph , on a Back Country Road, and Expressway, is that the cars take longer to pass you , so they see you for longer and respect your space more,
and when they do pass, they do so when the oncoming traffic further out/further down the road , ( I have noticed the faster you go , the less they are Frustrated/Pissed at being behind you )
Thereby
Reducing the chance of them getting into a head on collision with the other road traffic coming the other way on 2 lane roads .
On an express way, the faster you go ... the more chance that they will have enough time to look up from their cell phone to see you ! ( stand along the side of an Expressway and observe people on their cell phones and the amount of time they look down at the phone , until they look up again. When going faster on Express ways the difference in many/most cases is the time difference to see you , and to get back into their lane !

Then there is the Case of wanting to ride Great Roads like ... The Tail of the Dragon , in South Carolina , and other such roads, those roads are a Motorcyclist and Sport Car's Dream Road, pure Nirvana !
when on a bicycle on those roads ( Hwy 9 in my area ) it is Much Safer to go the speed limit, which is around 35 mph, the way many Motorcyclists and Sport Car Drivers drive on such roads you need to be going 30-35 mph to be safe.

 

[motomech]

Nobody has mentioned Bicycle Lanes.
Probably 90% of the 35 mph streets here, whether they be 1 lane or 2 lanes, have well marked bicycle lanes and I am not tempted to get out in traffic.
In fact, i'm rather smug in my bicycle grid, knowing that I have rights and I'm perfectly legal.
No, it's not perfect, there is the occasional car that has to get past you to make an immediate right turn, so my rear view mirror gets lot's of use as I approach busy cross streets.
Turning left on a 4 lane intersection when traffic is high presents a challenge. Do I chance moving thru the traffic lanes to get to the left hand turn lane? Or do I go thru, stop at the far corner, side the bike around 90 degrees and proceed w/ traffic when the light turns? As often as not, I take a third option. As I approach, I'll turn off on a side street, carefully make a U-turn and wait to get across. Once across, continue on the side streets to get over to the I want to be on and cross again a blk. or two downstream from the light.
But all that is neither here nor there, what I'm wondering is why more here don't use the bike lanes. Are they in too much of a hurry? Or are the bikes lane system not as good as it is here, or perhaps it doesn't exist?

 

[WoodlandHills]

My street bike does 70+ mph comfortably.
I guess you disaprove

Yet it does handle better and brake shorter than your R1

In town, I do ride from point A to B faster and safer than your motorcycle every time and I do it all year long, sun, rain or snow. 8)

On ES, you will meet all kind of riders. They build what is good for them, not always at first try but many end up succeeding to have the ideal bike for their need.

That is quite a claim! What sort of brakes do you have that will stop you from 70mph as short as an R1 and how are you able to compare handling at speed to an R1? Actual lap times, back to back testing, or just your hopes? I am sure that at speeds under 40 mph an ebike might feel more nimble and have a lighter feel than an R1, but are the cornering limits anywhere the same? Actual suspension and real sport tires are on sportbikes for a reason...... The suspension damping and tire compounds used on even the highest quality of bicycle is a joke in comparison.

 

[liveforphysics]

I have various licenses, including motorcycle endorsement.

Answering a set of multiple-choice questions, mostly about alcohol, has absolutely no effect on the riding choices at person makes.

The danger is the cars. 750W and 20mph is enough power to get you out in front of a car to die, but not enough give you options for manoverability/survivability in getting out of the way of the car.

Having a little plastic card in your pocket will not save you as the vehicles impact your body.

Having a license plate bolted to the back means more aerodynamic drag and more sharp edges to cut your body. No amount of little plates bolted to a vehicle makes it safer or offers protection from car chassis's mashing you into paste.

If you want to see less of a thing in the world, you need only tax it, license it, register it etc. Humans are currently in a race to global suicide through poisoning the shared life support system. Any suggestions towards making Ebikes have additional bureaucracy to operate is one more shovel stroke of digging our planets own mass grave.

 

[MadRhino]

That is quite a claim! What sort of brakes do you have that will stop you from 70mph as short as an R1 and how are you able to compare handling at speed to an R1? Actual lap times, back to back testing, or just your hopes? ...

I am talking about city riding here, not lap time obviously. I own motorcycles, ebikes and horses, and been riding for more than half a century, on and off road. Most of my friends are still riding sport motorcycles and some of them pretty good at it. Never any motorcycle ever did keep up with me in town for more than a few blocks, not because they don't have the power to, but simply because I have bicycle privileges, silence, brake and maneuverability advantage. Those who tried soon gave up, either because they realized all the disturbance and noise they had to make to follow me, or because they had the cops after them as a result of it.

I use big bicycle calipers on 225mm rotors, but only 229 lbs total riding weight with 20+ Kw of power. Side by side from one corner to the next I beat you unless you are willing to pull every HP out of your R1, and you know how much noise and attention you will be pulling as well doing so. I am not shy to pull every watt out of mine, for I do it in silence and if the police notices our ride, you will be their immediate target with your shiny sport gasser.

Now, let's suppose that you are not giving sh*t about the cops. At the next red light I will pass all cars on the right and will be the first to start on the green. You might too, but sure not every time and that also, will get you into troubles sooner than later. Then, as we get closer to dense trafic zones, I will cross a park and ride against a One-Way street using the cycle path... I guess I don't need to explain further, to make you realize how far behind you will be riding, even if I use only half of my power in town. I will have time to smoke and order the lunch before you arrive. If you come to Montreal, I will let you ride a Duccatti and take the bet.

 

[dustNbone]

Turning left on a 4 lane intersection when traffic is high presents a challenge. Do I chance moving thru the traffic lanes to get to the left hand turn lane? Or do I go thru, stop at the far corner, side the bike around 90 degrees and proceed w/ traffic when the light turns? As often as not, I take a third option.

This one's easy, you take the slow lane, which is usually pretty easy, then you roll up toward the light until you get to a full sized pickup truck or the like stopped in the left lane, when the car in front of them goes, you cross into the turning lane. Truck guy will get pissed off and maybe honk but he couldn't have hit you if he wanted to in that 4 ton piece of stationary shit. Not when you're going 20MPH. Physics and such.

If that fails, option 3 I find is the best, and often faster than waiting for left turn traffic. It's pretty damn safe too. It really depends on what's happening as you approach the intersection.

 

[Ozzzz]

I have various licenses, including motorcycle endorsement.

Answering a set of multiple-choice questions, mostly about alcohol, has absolutely no effect on the riding choices at person makes.

The danger is the cars. 750W and 20mph is enough power to get you out in front of a car to die, but not enough give you options for manoverability/survivability in getting out of the way of the car.

Having a little plastic card in your pocket will not save you as the vehicles impact your body.

Having a license plate bolted to the back means more aerodynamic drag and more sharp edges to cut your body. No amount of little plates bolted to a vehicle makes it safer or offers protection from car chassis's mashing you into paste.

If you want to see less of a thing in the world, you need only tax it, license it, register it etc. Humans are currently in a race to global suicide through poisoning the shared life support system. Any suggestions towards making Ebikes have additional bureaucracy to operate is one more shovel stroke of digging our planets own mass grave.

For MB endorsement, we need to attend a course, then assessment, then are provisional for two years. It was a pain and (inc registration) expensive.

I'd agree it that case it discourages motorbike ownership. What is the alternative?, the chaos of roads chocked with young guys thinking there's nothing to learn?

Lots could be done to make the situation easier (ie. cheaper) for bicycles but a 'legal' pathway bringing electric road-speed bikes into the mainstream would do more for green than not? Meanwhile, we have this other 'class', electric bicycles, at 20mph on roads/paths, or otherwise, doing doing bicycle type stuff where they do now, being ridden by those within that capability. Dudes (on gassers or rodded ebikes.. shrug) pushing the limits on road will do nothing for the wider ebike progress.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

The law is, 20 under only motor power.

the law, where??
not in the one time 'safe' state of mizoora so i've been informed countless times.
or where the amber wolves roam(?)

So, I will go 25, but only when peddling. Which is a good rule,

ah, from NYC i c.
even if you're not, but simply passing thru, you would not just have the self restraint to stay you're hand off the throttle?
but also dutifully remove the offending motor as the law demands.
after all the law is the law, aint dat sew?

I say, that is good.

to be king.
regardless of who you may have voted for, you trump types wish the world to be black & white.
you believe your line in the sand should be imposed on everyone, no surprise here.
no, the only thing contraversial is your spelling.

should add i have yet to exceed 19.5 mph under electromotive power.

Give me speed
And how you feel to make it real
Real as anything you've seen
Get a life with this dreamer's dream

 

[Chalo]

My street bike does 70+ mph comfortably.
I guess you disaprove

Get it plated and insured, and stay off of bicycle facilities, and we have nothing to disapprove of.

 

[dustNbone]

+1 what Chalo said.

The plate and insurance is between you and the law, but I think anything that can safely and comfortably travel at 70MPH is too heavy to be mingling with light traffic, even if it's going slow. I'd want to be insured at that point from a personal liability standpoint, regardless of what the law is. Even 200lbs going 70mph is going to break things, or people, if it impacts.

I don't think 20MPH represents some kind of line between safe and unsafe on a bicycle, I ride a vintage Nishiki touring bike and have done plenty of riding through mountain passes, both before and after putting a BBS02 on it and 40MPH downhill doesn't feel unsafe at all if you have a safe place to do so. And that's on 1.25" touring tires with no suspension or disk brakes, but the "safe place to do so" is not something really available in the city.

I've been riding my bike as my main or only transport for years now, and whether I'm powered or not, I seem to find myself going about 20MPH in the bike lane/shoulder most of the time, on a steep enough downhill in good conditions I will take the lane if I'm going to be over 25mph for a time, especially if there are driveways and side streets on my right. If I'm in the lane, I go as fast as I feel safe, or traffic speed, whichever is faster. On the ebike it's more likely to be traffic speed, which I really don't see any safety issue with as long as I'm visible to traffic, and it does indeed feel safer than 20MPH in most bike lanes.

Multipurpose paths are a totally different story in my opinion, where there's basically a big sidewalk and bikes go one side and pedestrians go the other. 20MPH is really fast on one of those if there's pedestrians (and their little dogs) about. I avoid riding on those at all cost in the daytime, it's more stressful than dealing with road traffic, little dogs can change direction really fast. Kids too. Zero turning circle. I'd much rather hit a car.

 

[dogman dan]

Cool that you get bicycle privilieges where you live, on a motorcycle that happens to have pedals MadRhino. Most can't get away with that, or do get away with it by outrunning all cops. I'm a bit surprised though, that you don't come home to find the cops waiting there for you. Guess they don't know you yet.

Me,, I just like to be a bit more legal. But not completely, I ride a slow e bike on paths that have no motors whatsoever signs. Nobody minds. cops wave and smile at me. But now that I have the gas scoot, I do my hauling ass on that. I won't say I obey all speed limits, far from it.

I did mention bike lanes. The only place I'm going to ride 20 mph is on slow streets, safe bike lanes and paths, or rural roads with essentially no traffic. It's just too hard to eyball every car that passes you, if it's happening every 30 seconds. But once in 15 min,, no problem.

Otherwise, keep up or die.

 

[MadRhino]

Cool that you get bicycle privilieges where you live, on a motorcycle that happens to have pedals MadRhino. Most can't get away with that, or do get away with it by outrunning all cops. I'm a bit surprised though, that you don't come home to find the cops waiting there for you. Guess they don't know you yet.

Yep, we are lucky here that powerful ebikes are accepted. I know this is very different in many places in the world. They know me, and I am not alone although we are not so many yet. I guess that when we will be many, things will change for worse or better. Having our bikes plated is not possible now, but we are insured as anyone on the streets is, no matter what he drives or ride.

They are easy on some things, but stupid strict on others. I can't smoke on the sidewalk in front of the coffee shop any more, I have to be standing on the street. Damn health talibans, they want to gaz me with petrol to protect me from tobaco smoke, maybe get me killed by a car to save me from cancer. Politicians are stupid, this is just the same as anywhere else. It is only in how their stupidity does apply, that is different here and there, now and then.

 

[Mündawg]

Where i live being able to go 30+ on my ebike is a life saver. I live and ride mostly in the rural mountains of Western North Carolina. Cars drive fast down these windy hilly roads, bike paths/lanes? yea right, the only bike lane in my town is a 1.2 miles section that runs through "downtown", where the speed limit is 20mph anyway.

On the open roads cars will fly by me with little regard for my safety if i am only going 18-22mph. Either they come up on my so fast behind a curve that they don't see me or they are pissed that i am holding them back.

Many times now cruizing along @ 30+ mph i have had cars happily drive behind without even tailgating me. the usual speed limits in these areas is 25-35mph. They tend to give me space and wait for a long straightaway before passing me if i am not holding them below the speed limit too much. If i am doing this i tend to own the lane as well and make myself as visible as possible. I ride with multiple front and tail lights, a blaze orange jogging vest and a dayglo green full face helmet.

honestly i would appreciate just a little more power/speed. My 1500w bbshd can't sustain 30+mph when going up some of these intense hills. I'd love to upgrade to 52v 40A/45A if i can to push my speeds just a little higher.

 

[dogman dan]

Good example of a traffic situation where more speed is safer. But if you were on the bike lane, in the get you doored zone, 30 mph would be stupid. If the speed limit on that road was 55 mph, you'd better be on something that goes that fast, if you can't get safe on a wide shoulder of the road.

You definitely have to adjust to the situation, on each road you travel. This is why I don't like slow speed limits for e bikes. There should only be posted speed limits where all bikes should go slow. Like the multi use trail, the sidewalks downtown, etc. On the street, 30 mph should be legal so you can take the lane and keep up on a 25-30 mph road. And cuz now I'm an old fart,,, I'd like to see no city street or county road that is not a state highway have a speed limit over 30 mph.

I'm fortunate where I live, the most traveled route I use has a 5' wide bike lane, and low traffic. So I can be pretty safe riding around 15 mph. Around town, we have many back routes. One is a bike path that is 35 miles long, circling the entire city. Others are dirt roads along the old irrigation canals. You can get nearly anywhere in town with no need to ride a 45 mph 4 lane street.

Its also legal, to go 30 mph on the ebike. this is because it's actually classified as a moped. I rode a much faster ebike in summer before I got the scoot. In winter, 20 mph or less is warmer for me, with lots of pedaling helping me warm.

 

[WoodlandHills]

If you live in a country with a national health system where other taxpayers pay if you get hurt, doesn't the state have an obligation to take reasonable steps to prevent avoidable costs? Steps like discouraging tobacco use, encouraging condom use or assuring that riders and drivers have appropriate training for the type vehicle (push-bike, ebike, motorcycle, car or semi-truck), that those vehicles are operated in appropriate places at appropriate speeds (no semi-trucks on bike paths or push-bikes on the freeway) and that those vehicles are built safely (vehicle standards/inspections). None of this is unreasonable IMHO, then again, I don't think that mandatory helmet laws for bicycles and motorcycles are unreasonable either.

I guess I just don't get how a home constructed motorcycle can be operated on public highways with no insurance, vehicle registration or inspection. The concept of a "pedal-exemption" to the vehicle code blows my mind.......

 

[MadRhino]

If you live in a country with a national health system where other taxpayers pay if you get hurt, doesn't the state have an obligation to take reasonable steps to prevent avoidable costs? Steps like discouraging tobacco use, encouraging condom use or assuring that riders....

I agree ther should be a law forcing YOU to wear a condom

People with such a mind stole something from us, and continue to steal more and more of it. They will be satisfied only when we have no more... Freedom