is there a simple controller?

[Living E Caveman]

I've seen a dimmer (from a wall switch) used as a variable speed "controller" on a router(AC power though). I was wondering if a VERY simple throttle is available to replace a controller's various uses, basically something to go directly between a motor and a battery, which works well, and is inexpensive.
The question is: is there a simple throttle to replace a controller? something like a dimmer does for AC electric power? I know AC, I need to know is a DC power throttler available?
Cheapskate or not, clean republic has a button powered 250 watt engine, so I want to know if it only works for 250 watt low powered engines, or if i can use the same kind of button on a 450w mass-produced brush motor chinese $140 quick setup for very very very very cheap.
I am happiest being a cheapskate. I love what little i spend my money on.

 

[zener]

A ebiker from Pakistan have a ebike without controller. He uses switches to switch between various voltages from his bettery.

 

[Hillhater]

With a DC brushed motor its simply a matter of varying the voltage as zener said.
Wont work that way with brushless though
But ..low power (<1kW) brushed motor controllers are cheap at $10-$15 .

 

[Punx0r]

A lighting dimmer works by clipping the AC waveform and won't work on DC. Small brushed motot controllers are very cheap!

 

[mettleramiel]

As has been stated, this would only work with a brushed motor, not a brushless one. The problem you are going to run into is finding a switch that can handle to current that the motor draws. If you want to use that 450watt motor, you would need a switch able to handle at least 10amps.

 

[Russell]

Cheapskate or not, clean republic has a button powered 250 watt engine, so I want to know if it only works for 250 watt low powered engines, or if i can use the same kind of button on a 450w mass-produced brush motor chinese $140 quick setup for very very very very cheap.

The Clean Republic system uses a pushbutton as a throttle but since they do use a brushless DC motor the system also employs a controller (seen here: http://www.electric-bike-kit.com/controllerandchromeplug.aspx ). You can buy small controllers very cheaply from China (~$14+shipping) and rig up a pushbutton as a throttle too if on/off control is all you want, though throttles are quite inexpensive.

There is a challenge and some satisfaction to doing things cheaply however unless you have a cheap source for batteries THEY can be the biggest expense often amounting to more than the motor/wheel, controller and throttle combined.


-R

 

[Living E Caveman]

I'm obviously the most advanced cheapskate here. With a simple on/off switch between any small motor and the battery, open or closing the circuit, and assuming the cyclist was willing to pedal up to speed (or over half full speed at least-to not jolt the motors moving parts)
Thank you for responding. And I also find building my own things ingenious and entertaining in the extreme, I'm a lifetime fan! so yes, on the cheap is rewarding to me. (trying to quit) I also acquiesce a 15 buck controller is affordable and my question is for my minimalist interest's purposes.

 

[mark5]

Here's a minimalist switch, Caveman:

Re: controller, relay or...
http://motorbicycling.com/showpost.php?p=151287&postcount=50

 

[Living E Caveman]

Here's a minimalist switch, Caveman:

Re: controller, relay or...
http://motorbicycling.com/showpost.php?p=151287&postcount=50

that's excellent JD. why is a relay required, outside the simple switch? I'm only basically an electrician, mostly carpentry experience. lumber is so much more forgiving than batteries.

 

[amberwolf]

If you really want an actual "throttle" for simple but still smooth control of a motor, then as long as it is a simple brushed motor (not BLDC or multiphase) you *can* do it using a dimmer, but not a standard wall-plate type.

The type you would need is a type that used to be used a lot for stage lighting, which uses a huge wirewound potentiometer (which weighs more than most of the hubmotors I have here!) to handle up to 1KW of power dissipation. You'd probably have to mount it to the top&downtube of the bike between your legs rather than on the handlebars, because of it's size and weight, but you could mount it anywhere and control it via cable if you like.

I don't know if I still have mine after the housefire and subsequent events, but I have posted pics of it here on ES before when this subject has come up.

THe two big problmes with this type of control are that A) it's huge and heavy, and B) it wastes all of the power not going to the motor as heat in the lighting dimmer, resistively.

But it'd work, as long as you use one that's capable of dissipating all of the power not being used n the motor itself at any instant.


Oh, and if you have a brushless motor, well, you can control THAT with this type of dimmer, too, but it's more complex: You'd use this dimmer to control a brushed motor, with a brushless motor whose shaft is tied directly to the shaft of the brushed motor. Then connect the phase wires from that brushless motor to your actual propulsion brushless motor. As the first motor spins faster, it will cause the second motor to act as a generator, outputting a voltage to your propulsion motor, causing it to spin.

It's very wasteful of power, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work if you had to do it.




If you want simple and relatively efficient, the relays used to switch batteries in and out will work better, though it complicates hte process of recharging, cuz you can no longer series *or* parallel bulk charge them, but must now individually charge them.

Other htan that, there's a few ways of fairly simply using PWM to control a brushed motor, which is the most efficient way vs simplicity.

 

[fechter]

It's hard to find a push button that can handle the current of a large motor. A relay is used because it has a higher current rating on the contacts.

In the 'old days' they used big relays and resistors made from wire to limit the jolt when starting up. My old Zappy scooter had just an on/off relay to operate it. This works OK at lower power levels, but as you suspected, suddenly applying 450w to something usually results in something breaking.

A friction clutch on the motor would be another possible solution. This lets the motor spin up quickly while the vehicle can take it's time.

 

[Living E Caveman]

I'm learning quickly here. I see brushless motors and brushed motors need different controllers.
here is what I want to use it for, which I've been building up to.
I have a brushed motor (currie v1) and a DD motor (350watt)I want to put them on the same bike. The DD motor on front wheel now is too complex for me to figure out all the wires coming from the motor.(two plugs, one with 5 wires and one with 3 wires. so looking for a simple on off switch to hardwire to the removable battery terminal) Is it cool to switch on the DD by relay+switch when its already cruisin'? And HOW do I make all 8 wires into 2 wires??
The DD (direct drive) is important, as it is a fitness minded motor, and I'll always want one with me, even when I have enough money to switch from geared motors to the wonderful MID DRIVE motors. Its a lifetime warranty thing(DD's are very durable) Also where do mid-drive controllers come in, they're mostly brushed, Right?
I'm trying to use both on the road, DD for high speed... and brushed 450watt when I'm feeling lazy or hills or in town. speaking of lazy, I am going to further research this stuff tomorrow, I've been at it a few hours today. ES is huge!
P.S. the zappy is a DD. HA lol its a zappy! As for a friction transmission, unfortunately PA law forbids and automatic transmission on an ebike. requirement 3 of Pennsylvania vehicle code. (R.3 also makes all ebikes that DON'T have an automatic transmission, technically legal!) Good thought tho. Much gratitude.
PSS ha is a friction clutch 'automatic' transmission or manual? Grey areas of the law only gandalf can remedy IMO.

 

[amberwolf]

The DD motor on front wheel now is too complex for me to figure out all the wires coming from the motor.(two plugs, one with 5 wires and one with 3 wires. so looking for a simple on off switch to hardwire to the removable battery terminal) Is it cool to switch on the DD by relay+switch when its already cruisin'? And HOW do I make all 8 wires into 2 wires??

That's what you'll need the brushless controller for. If you don't use one, then you would have to use the multiple-motor method I outlined previously to control it. You can't otherwise control that motor, AFAIK.

The 5 wire connector is the hall sensors--if you have a sensorless controller for it you don't need those, but otherwise you do, so the controller will know what position/speed/direciton the motor is in/going, and be able to provide the power the motor needs on the correct phase wires.

The 3 wires are phase wires, that hte motor actually uses to get power to move--but they have to be sequenced correctly with power or they don't make it move, they just lock it in place and/or heat it up.

Also where do mid-drive controllers come in, they're mostly brushed, Right?

Prbably not--I'd guess most drives, middrive, geared, or direct, are brushless nowadays, because it's not much more expensive to make them (might actually be cheaper cuz the motors are simpler) and it's a lot more efficient.

 

[Living E Caveman]

I just realized my dream controller- the variable voltage controller by golden motor, is probably as difficult to hook up to non-direct drive motors as I could have a nightmare about. But It could still power my much needed DD motor with any battery I happen to have. It would still seem the var. volt controller is not perfect. NOOOOOOOO!

 

[Hillhater]

That DD motor with 8 wires is a Brushless motor (the 3 wires are the phase power connections). So you will not be able to just put a switch/ relay in to control it.

 

[Living E Caveman]

Ah I learned 3phase motor from a 50's electric motor manual. interesting 2 phase is more forgiving. But I guess they are only the brushed motors, never the direct drive.
My currie controller has 5 wires to hood to the throttle, which I vastly prefer to the DD controller throttle. Can you suggest how to figure out their arrangement or should I go jump in a lake til i figure it out for myself. I have spares if I fry it.
I assume the easiest answer is to use both controllers(brushed and brushless) with a switch coming from the + and - of the battery.
I'm going to do the easy way. Great learning day for me!
thanks all

 

[amberwolf]

I'd just parallel them at the battery, with no switch other than a main on/off (and it's actually simpler to use a jumper connector than a switch, depending on the power rating you need).

Then you can just throttle up with either one of them whenever you need to, without having to stop, switch between them, and start up again. (you'd need separate throttles for that though--I have one on my left and right handlebars, left controls rear motor and right controls front, though presently both are brushless).

Depending on the design of a controller, it's possible that if you disconnect it from the battery while the motor is spinning, you could actually damage the controller, depending on exactly what is happening at that instant. Rare but it has happened.


Also, to clarify terminology, "direct drive" (DD) simply means a (hub) motor that directly drives the wheel, with no gears between it and hte wheel. It doesn't have anything to do with whether it's brushed or brushless.

 

[Living E Caveman]

Thanks amberwolf. I'll be careful of turning the motor off, and I think you mean I don't need a switch, just to parallel the wires. good info.
I assume a brushed direct drive would run on a brushed controller. Maybe the Var. volt controller isn't done yet.
you have written a book on ES with that thread. cool to see where it started. reloaded
I'm going to read the whole ES wiki before I ask another question. lots to refresh on.
peace

 

[Living E Caveman]

I remember clearance issues with the rear wheel, which i would leave on the front bike. then the rear (cargo) bike would be mounted on a rear rack, on a simple pole(it could carry its front fork/wheel). Give me a while, I'll continue this thread

 

[amberwolf]

One "rule" I have found useful to keep in mind is that almost any project can be done...but it either won't be as simple as you wanted it to be, or it won't be as cheap. And in either case it will probably take a lot longer than you wanted.


When i used the "simple" brushed powerchair motors, it resulted in a whole host of other problems, for a number of reasons, all of which were fixable but required so many other changes that it wasn't simple to use them anymore--that's why i went with hubmotors at that point.

First geared low power Fusin, then higher power DD "9C", etc. It certainly simplified a lot of other things, though the drive systems/controllers/wring were more complex, and created problems of their own.


I tried to make a simple two-bike frame...and various issues with it led to the more complex version I first rode, which itself has been complexified significantly since then to fix other problems I've run into over the years.


I could fix all the issues with all of the "simple" stuff and keep it simple...but it would take either more time or more money or both. :lol:

 

[Modbikemax]

There is a very cheap and simple solution, just pedal!

Everything else is going to be more complicated and expensive.

 

[Modbikemax]

Just bought one of these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/291194029208?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
There are none of the confusing interlock wires just simple clean layout and very compact.
Terminals are labeled clearly in English. You just need to supply an enclosure and insulate the FETs from a heat sink.
It doesn't get much simpler than this.

 

[Russell]

I don't see how you can get any simpler or cheaper than a sensorless 6-FET Chinese controller. Yeah shipping inflates the price (about $14) but shop around and I'm sure you'll find a deal. And if you're already ordering something from overseas add one to your order simply to have a spare. A sensorless controller is great for troubleshooting too, I mean c'mon you have 3 hook-ups; battery power, throttle and phase outputs!



-R

 

[Living E Caveman]

what I want to know is this;
can a direct drive motor be powered by a switch, being as I barely ever need to use the throttle halfway or partway in any way.(350watt)(my 5 prong brushless throttle just busted)probly cheap but wanted to ask anyway since i don't use low power on the throttle much.
gracieas

 

[amberwolf]

If it is a DD *brushed* motor, then yes it can be directly controlled via a switch, however the switch will need to be pretty large and heavy duty to handle the voltage and current without welding it's contacts together.

If it's a DD *brushless* motor,then no, you can't directily control it with a switch, you have to use some form of controller to detect where the magnets are in relation to the coils, and provide power to the right coils in the right sequence to get and keep it moving as needed.


However, if all you need to do is replace the *throttle* with a switch, then yes, that will work.

You can use a simple SPST toggle or pushbutton switch, connected between the 5V and Signal wires of the throttle. Then wire a 10Kohm resistor between the Signal wire and the Ground wire, so that anytime the button isn't being pushed, it's *defnitely* turning off the motor.


But this may be harder on your whole system than using a throttle, depending on how your controller handles startups under load, and how you usually use the throttle.




EDIT: BTW, I ran across those lighting controllers, so here's a pic of one next to the stator of an MXUS / 9C typical hubmotor (the motor is lighter and smaller than the Luxtrol dimmer!).