Kapton - is it the best material for the job?

solar.g

10 mW
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Melbourne
I looked up Kapton 'cos I didn't know about it.
It's used by many people here to separate pouch cells and insulate wires.
I found that Kapton does have it's limitations.
Here's the first hit I found, relating a Kapton-related aircraft fire:
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/kapton_mangold.htm
Those of you using it to separate pouch cells might like to do some more research to see if it is good enough for the job, or if it's a short-circuit or fire risk under difficult conditions:
"Kapton - the aromatic polyimide wiring insulation around the wire strands - has no place, he says, in passenger-carrying aircraft. He says that the main reason is that, in an electrical short, the wiring insulation chars to a conductive carbon residue and ignites like a dynamite fuse, affecting the whole wiring bundle (and therefore many disassociated systems).
The phenomenon is known as arc tracking. Because the outer carbon char (and not the internal wire-core conductor) is then carrying the current, the circuit breakers most probably will not trip. There is therefore nothing to halt this "flashover" because the power stays on the wire. The older the Kapton wiring gets, the more brittle and vulnerable the insulation becomes."

I gather that it's going to be fine if temperature never reaches the point where the Kapton itself chars.
But if it did, then there's the chance of a big Kaboom!

From the Kapton Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton):
"However, Kapton insulation ages poorly: an FAA study shows degradation in under 100 hours in a hot, humid environment.[5] It was found to have very poor resistance to mechanical wear, mainly abrasion within cable harnesses due to aircraft movement. Many aircraft models have had to undergo extensive rewiring modifications--sometimes completely replacing all the Kapton-insulated wiring--because of short circuits caused by the faulty insulation."

This means that if you ride an e-bike in hot, humid, environments for over 100 hours, and there is risk of abrasion/vibration/movement/impact around the Kapton, then it may break down and stop doing what it should.

Question for the experts: Is there an alternative to Kapton that is more resistant to temperature, humidity, abrasion?
 
solar.g said:
I looked up Kapton 'cos I didn't know about it.
It's used by many people here to separate pouch cells and insulate wires.
I found that Kapton does have it's limitations.
Here's the first hit I found, relating a Kapton-related aircraft fire:
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/kapton_mangold.htm
Those of you using it to separate pouch cells might like to do some more research to see if it is good enough for the job, or if it's a short-circuit or fire risk under difficult conditions:
"Kapton - the aromatic polyimide wiring insulation around the wire strands - has no place, he says, in passenger-carrying aircraft. He says that the main reason is that, in an electrical short, the wiring insulation chars to a conductive carbon residue and ignites like a dynamite fuse, affecting the whole wiring bundle (and therefore many disassociated systems).
The phenomenon is known as arc tracking. Because the outer carbon char (and not the internal wire-core conductor) is then carrying the current, the circuit breakers most probably will not trip. There is therefore nothing to halt this "flashover" because the power stays on the wire. The older the Kapton wiring gets, the more brittle and vulnerable the insulation becomes."

I gather that it's going to be fine if temperature never reaches the point where the Kapton itself chars.
But if it did, then there's the chance of a big Kaboom!

From the Kapton Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton):
"However, Kapton insulation ages poorly: an FAA study shows degradation in under 100 hours in a hot, humid environment.[5] It was found to have very poor resistance to mechanical wear, mainly abrasion within cable harnesses due to aircraft movement. Many aircraft models have had to undergo extensive rewiring modifications--sometimes completely replacing all the Kapton-insulated wiring--because of short circuits caused by the faulty insulation."

This means that if you ride an e-bike in hot, humid, environments for over 100 hours, and there is risk of abrasion/vibration/movement/impact around the Kapton, then it may break down and stop doing what it should.

Question for the experts: Is there an alternative to Kapton that is more resistant to temperature, humidity, abrasion?

Have you actually read all about it? How can you compare data meant for airplanes? The temperatures in airplanes -55 to 260C, vibrations nothing to compare to bikes. This sound silly enough when people try to dig up a problem when there is none.
 
Please don't take my question personally!
I'm just trying to find out whether it's a product which has a limitation which might become apparent under severe duress.
Some e-bikers put their machines through very harsh treatment.
2 weeks ago I flipped my recumbent trike 'cos I took a corner too fast and left the trail, rolled over a rock, and landed in the ditch the other side.
That's just because I like speed and am a bit careless with how I ride.
My polycarbonate battery box survived without a scratch, but it could've been more serious.
But the point is, if my battery pack takes a big knock, and because of it the internal insulation (be it Kapton or anything else) gets damaged or abraded, what are the risks?

My question again: Is Kapton the best available insulator to use between pouch cells and to protect from chafing, or is there anything out there which is better?
If Kapton is the material of choice, has anyone had personal experience with it failing in any way?

Just a request for information, thanks...
 
If you want to stop chaffing between pouches, you need to stop relative motion between them.

Double sided adhesives that cover the entire pouch surface and hang off the edge a few mm everywhere has been one proven solution. Double sided kapton would be fine, as would thin VHB or most anything else.
 
Thanks for that info liveforphysics, I have only found single-sided Kapton of large enough area for inter-cell protection near where I live.
I know about the double-sided-adhesive stuff, but haven't yet found it near me.
I'll keep looking.
 
Kapton (aka polyimide) is a great insulator when used properly, it's the insulating material in practically every flat flex cable out there (display cable in flip phones, laptops to name a couple). The problem is abrasion resistance, you need to prevent it from coming in contact with sharp edges or repetitive vibration. When I was working in the aerospace industry we would use a layer of teflon tape when we knew that a kapton insulated flex cable could possibly rub against something.

Personally I'm with Luke, look for the double sided foam tape. You definitely don't want rubbing on the kapton.
 
Carpet underlay tape sounds like it could work for me, as long as the adhesive isn't too flammable and doesn't stick too permanently.
I mount my batteries under the seat in my recumbent trike. The box is ~80mm from the ground.
Good centre of gravity, weight low & central.
The day I flipped my trike the battery pack was mounted behind my head on the packrack. Too much weight up high, I think (nothing to do with going too fast around a corner). Seriously, though, weight up high and to the rear definitely alters a trike's handling, so under the seat works for me.
Battery is enclosed in perspex/polycarbonate box, but actual battery, BMS & it's internal cables (balance, charge/discharge) can vibrate inside the box, if not immobilised adequately.
All the tapes or silicone goops I've tried so far have disadvantages - they either don't stop vibration/chafing, or they're too strong, so you can't get anything apart if you need to do a repair or redesign (I'm still finalising my design, so am still refining my prototyping layout after 800km.
Ideally, tape would stick well, but be removable.
If it's too permanent an adhesive, it's as bad as a firm-setting silicone or epoxy - just doesn't come off without damaging something.
Then there's the fire risk, should you hit a rock and short something.
I don't want the tape or it's adhesive to contribute to the situation.
 
I think kapton is over kill and a waste money in this application. Carpet tape like Ypedal said is good. Test per your requirements on repairability. It likely will stick more than you like. There is a product goo away or something like that (not goo gone) that dissolves organic adhesives. It is what car shops use to take the infernal dealer stickers off when you object. I used to know what it was ... ethylene something. Perhaps someone else knows.
 
the carpet tape is very tenacious, but it's paper thin, so instead of using an entire strip and covering the whole surface of the packs you wish to stick, just use small pieces, they will not dig into the packs like thicker materials can do if you do not add an entire layer.

Another thing, if you have shrink wrap over the packs, then apply double sided tape, you can always cut the shrink on the non-taped sides to get the cells out without force.
 
The day I flipped my trike the battery pack was mounted behind my head on the packrack. Too much weight up high, I think (nothing to do with going too fast around a corner). Seriously, though, weight up high and to the rear definitely alters a trike's handling, so under the seat works for me.
Battery is enclosed in perspex/polycarbonate box, but actual battery, BMS & it's internal cables (balance, charge/discharge) can vibrate inside the box, if not immobilised adequately.
I guess this is a bit OT but solar.g is absolutely correct about batteries on a back rack screwing up tadpole trike handling. I also had to mount my batts low in a lexan case. It really made the cornering much better to have the weight at the C/G instead of up high.
otherDoc
 
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