Kelly running 5305, Loud with high vibration

[methods]

5305
Kelly KBL 120V 220A


The motor *will* take off from a dead stop
The motor has lots of power
The motor seems to draw about double the current that it should
The motor draws way too much current in freewheel, perhaps 3A at half throttle.

The vibration is very strong at low rpm. . . feels like you can feel each pole “thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk...”
Under any acceleration it has high vibration and is loud.

When I let off the throttle to coast, if I blip the throttle it will choke up. Almost like it is regenerating.

Does this sound like an issue where the hall sensors are out of order in some way?

Set it up for:

12 poles
120 degree spacing
Torque mode
No current limit, speed limit, or voltage limit
No regeneration

This X5 was as quiet as a mouse with the Crystalyte controller.

Thanks for your help,
-methods

 

[methods]

I am thinking that I could back the pins out of the barrel connector and try all possible permutations:

ABC
ACB
BAC
BCA
CAB
CBA

That is only 6 total, with 5 more to go.
I read somewhere that someone tried this and experienced:

3 would not work
2 ran rough in one direction
1 ran smooth in the other direction

Maybe I will be so lucky. . .

Now to pop those pins. . . .


-methods

 

[fechter]

Yes, it sounds like you need to swap some wires. I think someone else has mated a Kelly to a Crystalyte and may know the wiring.

Besides swapping the 6 possible phase wire combinations, for each combination you may need to go through 6 hall sensor combinations to find the proper wiring. That's 36 total possibilities.

 

[markcycle]

This is what I'm using

Motor: A blue / B green / C yellow

Hall: A yellow (13) / B blue (12) / C brown (11)

seems to work for me
The Kelly is louder that the Crystalyte at very low RPM's but at 2 or 3 MPH smooths right out.

If you find something better please post

Mark

 

[methods]

YES
YES
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the help guys.
Originally (Mark) I had used your wiring. . . but I think I steered off into the weeds somewhere.

Since I had everything cleaned up, the easiest thing to do was cut the hall wires.

RED/Black got bent back
Controller: BLUE YELLOW ORANGE (B Y O)
NOTE: THESE WIRES ARE MY OWN WIRE COLORS, NOT STANDARD but here is my test sequence anyway

BYO
BYO : Forward and rough (starting point)

BYO
BOY : Nothing (Swap Yellow and Orange)

BYO
YBO : Nothing (Swap Yellow and Blue)

BYO
YOB : Smooth but backward

** Swapped motor power wires B and C to change direction **

BYO
YOB : Nothing

BYO
YBO : Smooth and forward (one step back)


YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!

If it were not for this forum I would have probably just ridden the bike like that and hated my life. . .

THANKS GUYS!
Btw: Of all the forums I have ever been on this one has the best S/N ratio by far.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Success!
HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!!!!!!!
:? 8) :lol: :x :wink: :|

-methods

 

[methods]

P.S. After I get over my jubilation I will reverse engineer the pinouts and post up the actual color scheme I used.
Thanks again for the help!

-methods

 

[Doctorbass]

Great News.. One more 5305 member that hit the 45mph barrier!

As soon as you finish your project.. let me know what max temp your motor reach at 100V!

Mine reached 164 celsius at 105A 100V (Hard stop and go!)

and at continuous 70kph flat it reach 120..


The upgraded 4110 fets controller always stay cool...

Doc

 

[fechter]

P.S. After I get over my jubilation I will reverse engineer the pinouts and post up the actual color scheme I used.
Thanks again for the help!

-methods

Thanks Mark.

Yes, please. And post a copy here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6241

I copied the setup that Mark posted to there, but if you have a more colorful version or if there are any changes, please post. These wiring questions come up over and over and I'd like one place to find them.

 

[methods]

My 4110 controller is only a memory now. . . To give credit, it did not blow under load, but rather in my driveway.

I have hit 45MPH on the 4110 controller. That one was running about 85A peak with around 70A under heavy load. My motor would get hot but I never measured it. Worst case I definitely could not keep my hand on it.

This Kelly controller is insane. . . on the first run, I ran 152A Peak with the CA set to 60A.

All my wiring is now 8 gauge
75A Andersen Connectors
Full Regen
Everything is done.
Tonight I am going to test-n-tune with the Kelly software then take a nice 900WH run across town.

I think I need to limit the current at the controller instead of at the CA....

btw:
My new 6S 32A Lipo Charger can charge my 24S2P 9Ah pack in 1 hour =) I break the pack down into a Pair of 6S4P so that I have two 16Ah packs that charge to 25.2V
Best news is that this power supply goes down to zero amps when it hits the target voltage =) It is a Vega 650 from Lambda. Has 5V 20A, 24V 15A, 12V 10A, and 12V 6A
To balance I hook the balance taps of each of the 6S packs together and use 2 external 6S balancers while charging.

-Patrick

 

[methods]

WOW!

Maintained 42mph @ 24A for 1 mile!
Pulled up over my favorite steep railroad overpass at 38mph!

Speed mode: Set max current to 50% (half of 220 = 120). Saw around 82A peak on the CA. Nearly identical performance to the 4110 Crystalyte.

Torque mode: Works as advertised. Tended to seriously dump current. . . Too easy to waste. Peaked at around 120A on the CA with max set to 50%

Balanced mode: Only played with it for a while. Felt like torque mode

I prefer speed more for now because it allows me to compare before and after with the 4110 Crystalyte. Next I will creep up the current again.

I hooked up the USB to RS232 adapter pertinent. Rode all over town making changes with the laptop. Reminds me of when I used to burn chips (or emulate) with Hondata.

-methods

EDIT: CA current limit was set to 60A for all of the above.

 

[knoxie]

Hi Methods

This sounds nice, any chance of some pictures or video? thats super fast as well be careful!! make sure your brakes are good and get a full face helmet 8)

Knoxie

 

[methods]

I wanted to get some video as I passed the Radar Speed Indicator down the street from my house.
I dont know how to mount the camera. I suppose I need to look into that.

Here are some pictures.


This is how I charge the batteries when I am lazy. 6S 8P 36Ah, all in "balance parallel" with a 25.2V 16A supply. Charges in 2 hours at 1/2C.
You can see a couple of the other power supplies in the background. Those things are awesome. . .
With that many cells in parallel the laws of averages causes the packs to balance themselves. There is also an Astro Blinky in their too to help.

View attachment 6



Here is the Kelly controller. I bought another one of those seat post racks and hung it out in the air. It does not weigh much so I dont even notice it is there. Last night it was ICE COLD after a very hard run. The Motor is now the weak link in this system. . .
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I enjoy hacking as much as the next guy (and did with my 7240 w/4110's) but let me tell you. . . The programmability of this controller is much more gratifying than soldering shunts and beefing up traces. Total control.
.
View attachment 3


Like I said in my other posts: Simple. Just a cruiser bike. Perfect platform. Please disregard the awful background. . . That is the abandonded house that I paid $500,000.00 for that was owned by an insane cat collector of 25 years. . . Dude was a Captain in the Navy, PhD Scientist at the Lab, and was breeding 30 cats in the house. Needless to say I had to gut the place down to 2x4's and start over.
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To be able to peddle at higher speeds I took this part off of a walmart mountain bike. Using the screws I can set which gear I want (usually the smallest). Up front I have pieces from BMX bikes and road bikes put together to give me 52 teeth (not on bike in this picture as I had been riding with no power for a few weeks). Those are the Porsche lug nuts (14x1.5 I think) that grab more threads than the stock nuts.
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Considering that I have 6mm steel plates for my drops this dinky little torque arm is not doing much. I had to grind it to get it to fit and overall I was not that happy with it. Later I plan on adding a wrench or two to keep the lug nuts on.
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I debated on wires size then settled on 8 gauge for both the power and the motor lines. This is more than enough, especially when using high quality stranded copper "power" wire.

-methods

 

[stew007]

thats one sweet setup you got there :wink: Are those LiMn packs?

 

[methods]

Lithium Polymer

$120 for 6S 5000mah
22V nominal, 25V off the charger
About 12lbs for 100V 9Ah

-methods

 

[RLT]

I see you are using an EagleTree elogger.... Are you just using on your charge setup, or is it functional on your system when running? If so, how did you get it to run on over 70V?

 

[methods]

I quit using the Eagle Tree when I started charging my Lipo packs in series.
Eagle Tree, DPR, Watts Up, -- None can handle 100V.

And eh. . . I figured out that my 1010b 200W balancing charger cant handle 100V either =)

So far I have blown up a charger and a watts up by plugging in my big pack without thinking.
If you want to datalog the hot ticket is the CA
I now charge right on the bike. I inject the charge current right at the controller and I use an external 1mohm shunt so my CA shows me Voltage, Current, and AH.

-methods

 

[Doctorbass]

I quit using the Eagle Tree when I started charging my Lipo packs in series.
Eagle Tree, DPR, Watts Up, -- None can handle 100V.

And eh. . . I figured out that my 1010b 200W balancing charger cant handle 100V either =)

So far I have blown up a charger and a watts up by plugging in my big pack without thinking.
If you want to datalog the hot ticket is the CA
I now charge right on the bike. I inject the charge current right at the controller and I use an external 1mohm shunt so my CA shows me Voltage, Current, and AH.

-methods

Methods, My WattsUp meter have an external voltage input for measuring lower than 4V.. and it have two voltage regulator inside. I blown both on mine so i pl;ugged directly the 5V with an external 4x AAA battery source and it came back alive. but max measurable volt limit is 89V. I can't go higher.. if i put 100.8V (with my fully pack cahrged, it only show 89V.. it's like it stop increasing at this value.. like if the analog circuit inside may have saturated output..


Hey.. Ruynning a 5305 at this power.. like 15kW+ would dissipate alot of heat right?.. do you feel that when it go very hot, the power is reduced? I had this feeling.. like if the winding resistance with heat could vary alot!...

Doc

 

[methods]

Nice find on the Watts up!
Wish I had heard that before I tore mine apart. I am actually using the shunt out of my Watts up for my CA now. Very good shunt and rated for high current.

I have noticed power inconsistencies under many different conditions. I have turned off all my current limits. My hub gets very hot after riding at >40mph for any significant period of time but I am hesitant to come to conclusions quite yet. Other factors in my system are:

Voltage at the pack
Temperature of the pack (warmer gets me stiffer response)
winding temperature (I cant get the motor to take any more than 35A some times. . . Wish I could!)
Cable loss with temperature (minimal except inside the hub where I did not use 8gauge)
Kelly programming (there is some level of "black box" going on that I am not in control of)

I will say that I can almost always break 40mph no mater what state my system is in and the torque would probably scare most normal people. I now have my throttle set for torque control instead of speed. Gives a real feeling of power.

Doc, you need to get some regen brakes! I now use the regen nearly exclusively and it feels much more solid than mechanical brakes. It is very linear. Only annoying thing is that kelly kicks off regen at 5% so you cant come to a complete stop. Cuts out at a few mph.

To get back to your question, I would say that the 5305 is the limiting factor in my setup. If there were a bigger/better motor available I would buy it. I am considering adding another 6 cells to get up to 125V to see if that provides a better experience.

-methods

 

[RLT]

Thanks for the reply... I was hoping you had figured out some way to 'trick' the Eagle Tree. I've got one here that was going into the next project.... Until I decided to run higher voltage than originally planned.

Guess I'll either have to swap it into the 2WD project for the CA on it, or buy a new CA.. Hmm, spend more money, or do more work. Always one or the other... but usually both.

 

[methods]

I would like to get my gurbbies on one of those datalogging CA's. If you are getting another maybe you should put out the feelers to seen if/when the new version will be released.

The Eagle Tree is still amazing. I have used it on an RC buggy that I converted over to 4S2P with a NEU11102Y. Did 70mph =) Biggest problem was aerodynamics at that speed. . . the car would just shoot up into the air and start tumbling.

I thought about hooking up the eagle tree to measure speed on the bike. Would be an interesting way to factor in the wind. Riding a bike at 30mph into a 30mph head wind takes a lot more current that with a 30mph tail wind! You could quantize that with the eagle tree.

Two wheeler you said? Got a link?
I am considering my next project.
Thinking of a evil go-cart or an electric boat. If I do the boat it is going to be a little tin deal that will lift right out of the water =)

-methods

 

[RLT]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3836

 

[shinyballs]

That's a monster setup you have methods, using extreme power. Mine is similar although running only at 65v on a Kelly 50a continuous - me being careful not to melt something. I have difficulties wiring it for regen, can you show how you wired yours?

 

[methods]

Well I dont have it in front of me but I can share some of what I have done and answer specific questions.

First thing is to make sure the over-voltage is high enough not to false trigger on a fully charged pack
Enable Regeneration
Enable Brake switch
Forget variable regen for now
Set regen by brake switch to something reasonable. Try 50%
Set max regen slightly higher to please the software

Now here is the trick: You can play with brake sensor type.

For me I had a throttle hooked up to it. When I pulled the normal ebrake regen would come on at 20%. When I pushed the throttle it would come up higher. I found this to be annoying.

So what I did was set the sensor up to 5-0V instead of 0-5V (I think, maybe other way around)
This set it up so that the Kelly always saw 100% from my regen throttle allowing me to get full regen when pulling the regular brake handle.

Basically the ebrake must be shorted and (in my case) the sensor must read max. I assume that if you just omit the brake throttle that it will read a floating 5V and you could tell the box that is max.

I tried disabling the sensor and had trouble.

Has this been helpful?
There really is no wiring to do.

If you wanted to get fancy you could use the throttle as the regen sensor then when you pull the brake lever your throttle would apply to regen. You could set it to the opposite as the "gas" and it would behave similar to engine braking. Other firmware versions actually have throttle braking by default.

-methods

 

[methods]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3836

Oh yea, I have seen this setup.
You are handy. Love the DIY work.

-methods

 

[RLT]

....... Love the DIY work.

In my case, I'm pretty sure DIY means Destroy it Yourself.