Kona Coiler conversion

[ebike-infected]

Hello everyone!

I am ebike-infected.

I've pedalled a lot in my life, no competing, but getting to places and enjoying open air while at it. Always had sh**ty bikes, not secondhand, more like ninthhand. My best bike was probably a 2nd WW army bicycle. REAL heavy, but rolled like a dream and great to cruise, comfortable too with a really springy saddle. Most my bikes i busted taking shortcuts thru trails and stuff. 2 my bikes (the better ones) were stolen. Then finally i bought class A freeride bike (instead of a car!) and i was in exctacy. That baby would go anywhere, i would ride down stairs just for the fun of it and all that stuff. Im sure many here relate to this. Anyway, there's only 1 drawback to it and that is ofcourse weight which makes the uphills a lot of work, which comes uncomfortable for my lazy butt, especially on longer rides, like when im going places, instead of just roaming for fun.
So, motivated by my laziness, curiosity, need to learn new stuff, and my wish to do cool things i dreamed of as a kid, -i have been recently reading a fair amount about ebikes and conversions. Also went and did a testdrive on the bionx 250W system on a hardtail mountainbike. The ride was sweet, but i was annoyed at the 25kmh border. So i decided to see if it would be possible to build a custom rig. First i was thinking small, but soon infection spread (as i found ES board) and i decided to do this properly. Maybe not legal to the letter, but real-life useful, fun, economical and safe transport. Oh yea, and green too baby!

With the ebike-project i hope get a versatile bike that i can (not in order of priority):

- freeride in trails thru forest, climb local cliffs and do general no-trail driving and easy DH
- freeride in the concrete jungle, not having to worry about street stones, bumps, stairs etc.
i do realize that i cannot bunnyhop the bike afterwards as well, but that is
small payoff for the eternal backwind!
- ride fast on the streets/roads of suburbia
- ride on the slower roads without being constantly overtaken & harassed by homicidal steel box drivers
- ride silently (and stealthily) basically anywhere. I dont like to smell like 2 stroke gasoline,
dont like the sound either. I want my bike silent and smokeless!
- pedal to base when it malfunctions. which, being built from quality components, -it shouldnt!
- use to haul ~20kg of payload in a trailer-wagon (kids/groceries/gear etc)
- leave outside the shop etc, without being tormented to anxiety over possible vandalism/theft.
- recharge conveniently and..
- use without a fear of exploding, electrocuting or burning anyone. myself included! I want it stonerproof!
- use to travel long distance too. (patiently and pedaling!)
- ride all year round
- Summer 15 to 35 Celcius
- Fall +10C to -10C + Rain + Dark
- Winter -25C to +5C + Snow + Sleet + Ice + SALT + Dark
- Spring 0 to +20C + Wet
- carry up stairs if need be. So preferably < 45 Kg
- maintain by myself and possibly even upgrade in the future.
- use to cut down on my car and gas expenses by using the ebike to ride distances uncomfortable or unpractical for pedaling.
- etc. im sure i forgot something.

Now, I really know *Very Little* about electronics so could i - please please pretty please - Get a mentor for my project? Maybe you experienced cats could help me out?
I promise to post plenty pretty pictures of the project!

SO...underneath is the rig as i have planned it. I would appreciate any input spoken by knowledge and experience. Perhaps i could save on some components, perhaps all are not necessary, maybe i missed some vital components? Maybe there are better suited/qualified components, maybe there are component mismatches etc. I dont know. PLEASE enlighten me! The goal is to build excellent allround freeride-ebike from high quality components.

According to ebike-simulator this ebike will, without driver's watts:
- max at about 58 kmh on flat, enough power for about about 20km having max torque of 135N-m
- cruise at half power 33 kmh, for about 2 hours / 60km
- eco-travel @ 22kmh with 1/3 power for about 4h reaching 90km


My Kona Coiler (size 19)
Freeride fullsuspension bike, about 17kg i think.
hayes9 Hydraulic discbrakes, sektor RL fork, fox vanillaR rearwheel susp.
Sun & Mavic DH rims. I also have generic semislicks + tioga's DH knobbies for tires.
This is a GREAT bike, if a bit heavy. Can handle everything i dare to ride NP.
very robust bike, I even once crashed with a car and the car broke but my steed was unharmed!
(myself, i rolled over the hood and survived with few bruises)
Very stable at speeds, i've ridden it at about 60kmh, couldnt pedal faster!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ux9b_ldQqAw/Tb2DcHlIIEI/AAAAAAAADZQ/EUHWbf_1XXw/s1600/Coiler1.jpg
This here not my bike, but same frame, looks size 19 too..

210,00 Controller
72Volt 45A digital sensorless controller for brushless motor
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16464&cat=296&page=1
or this?
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/C7240-NC.jpg

- Is it possible to use these controllers stably with 88 volt system?
- I notice there are also some ES members selling modified HiVolt controllers,
maybe 1 of those? they do highvoltage, do they do lowvoltage too?

315,00 Motor
HT 3525 rearwheel motor
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16447&cat=295&page=1
- available
- with torque for forestclimbing
- brushless
- silent i hope!
- could cope with 88 volts without much overheating in simulation..
recommend another?

538,00 Battery (10Ah, 88,8 volts)
Batteries from hobbyking
6 * Turnigy 5000mAh 6S 25C 22,2 volts Long Lipo Pack
2 * Turnigy 5000mAh 6S 20C 22,2 volts Lipo Pack
All batteries will go inside a box that will go inside the frame-triangle.

? Wires&stuff / battery harness and all those wires and connectors.
It is 8 batteries...how much for an harness made by skilled hands?
I dont have wires and stuff laying about in abundance..
In fact, is it possible to get a good set of robust wiring for the entire system?
And some spare Hquality connectors and wires for inevitable replacements?
It would be cool if it was possible to carry external 88volt battery for extra Ah
in a backbag that i could just plug in for long trips...
and maybe a recharger to charge while away from base.

160,00 Cycleanalyst
Large Screen Stand Alone Cycle Analyst 2.23
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16190&cat=277&page=1

- is this compatible with 88volt system?

70,00 Torque arm * 2
Torque arm universel REV3 long
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16507&cat=277&page=1

- or maybe 2 of those Torque-Pacmans from doctorbass, are they still available?
maybe someone has used them already on a coiler/stinky frame?

15,00 Regulator/ Throttle
Nothing-fancy full grip throttle.
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16308&cat=260&page=1
half grip throttle would be ok too...maybe even better for freeride?
Anyone has experience on this?

17,50 Cruiser - dont know if i will need this..
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16173&cat=260&page=1

17,50 E break
http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16189&cat=261&page=1
does this work with hydraulic diskbrakes? is it robust and can handle a little rough?

???,00 BattCharger
I wish for stonerproof one connection allpowerful, allknowing automatic gurulipocharger
Where can i get one? preferably portable?

Powersupply 12/24V for charger,
can i use ATX powersupply? i have one spare i think 500W

19,00 Cellogg
Well, many seem to say it's essential, and i too see the sense in being able to check
invidual cell voltage levels!
http://www.progressiverc.com/index.php/celllog-8m.html


On/Off switch
to (emergency) cut power between battery and system.

20,00 Usb DC converter for iphone musics and gps etc
already have a shimano front wheel hub dynamo, so maybe i could use that
as a standalone usb charger?
- oh, but i hear that hubdynamos can overload usb devices at speeds > 30kmh?

PAS system and maybe a switch etc to lower voltage/amps to make ebike pass a possible police test
(pedal-assisted, max speed 25kmh, no independet throttle)
The PAS would be useful too if it were torque-sensored like bionx and not speed-sensored.
However, it would be nice to to be able to bypass it at will. Is this practically achievable.

???,?? What Else?


~ 1500,00 TOTAL --> add mailing and tolls --> add 10-20% for extras and.. - wholy batbike! that's expensive!

lets add;
+ more-monies Some steal-proofing? keys? alarm? gps-tracker? wardogs?

I appreciate any input/feedback/comment!
Thank you all and May the Volt be with you!


ebike infected

ps..did i just win the longest post award ? sorry to strain your attention span!

 

[Drunkskunk]

wardogs. and cover it with fake poo. Then no one will steal it.

Nice choice on bike. I'd sugest making your own toque arms. nothing prebuilt will fit that unique recessed dropout. You will have the same issue Those of us with Kona Stinkys had. There are lots of posts about how its solved. You may be able to file down some of Doc's Pacman Torque plates to fit. that would be a great place to start.


get a sensored controller and motor, and get the integrated Cycle Analyst. its a better system. Smoother running, more functionality, better starts, and more redundancy.

Unfortunately, no one makes a PAS as good as the Bionix. But the Bionix isn't compatible with anything else. There is no good solution here. You'll have to learn to manyaly add the torque you need with the throttle, but its easy and intuitive to do.

No, that ebrake isn't compatable. You'll have to design something your self or find a way to adapt the brakelight switch from a motorcycle's hydrolic brake.

There is no stonerproof charging for Lipo. Realy, there is no stonerproof Lipo. The are neatly packaged pyromaniacs. They want to release their inner fire. They want to light up the night. They want to go out in a blaze of glory. They will burn your house down the first chance you give them. they're only safe if you give them careful attention all the time. Check youtube for lipo fires. You'll understand.

They can be perfectly safe with the right attention. But like a small pyromaniac child with a book of matches, they need that attention.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, at least you don't want much in the way of performance. :wink: Sounds like your budget is good, 15 thousand. Ohhh, those commas are supposed to be decimal points.

More seriously now, what you want may not be completely doable. We all have had to make a bit of an adjustment as we got into ebikes, unless funds really are no problem. What's affordable, and what that will do may be less than your fantasy if you ever rode motorcycles. Or it might be more than your fantasy performance, yet weigh more than you like.

I always think people should start with their first ebike being a bit on the low end of both the perfromance and cost range. Mistakes with 50 buck controllers gone up in smoke are much cheaper than with 200 buck controllers. That, combined with a few other comments you make about not exploding lead me to recomend you investigate 48v hubmotor setups for the first build. Look at A123 battery packs from Emissions Free. Cellman has a sturdy, powerful, safe battery.

The motor is an even bigger dilemma. A fast winding motor will get you the speed on the street you crave, but it will not climb hills as good as what you want. At 48v, a slower winding is going to be slow. In FACT, your desires generally describe the capabilities of two completely different bikes. If you build for the middle ground, you could end up with a bike that doesn't satisfy you on the street or dirt. Building a nice fast street ride is quite easy. The dirt bike is much more difficult, especially if you handicap yourself with a too fast winding of motor.

What motor you should choose? I think you need to figure out what your biggest priority in performance is before you choose. One type will shine on the street,the other climb the hills well at the price of either being slower or having to be run at 72v. Let us know what is the most important thing to you.

 

[ebike-infected]

Okay, lots of points. I will have to take a good look at these tips. Thanks!

I really have no idea of the difference between sensored or sensorless motor, so i'll need to check that out.

About the batteries... I originally considered ping lifepo batteries recommended to me by a local ebiker, but dimensions of those i found were very unpractical for a stealthy build. Lipo batteries come in many sizes and forms and so i was able to somewhat optimize the amount of batteries that would fit inside the triangle. I will check out cellman's batteries for sure, thanks for the tip. Having now checked out a few clips of Lipofires in youtube, I do find the vision of lipofire in my house or between my legs somewhat...disturbing...but then again, motorcycles and cars and scooters are loaded with gasoline. That stuff is pretty explosive too! Then again, i dont store gasoline inside my house!

The brake thing i think i got solved. I saw a e-break system somewhere that was utilizing sensor and a magnet that you would attach to the existing brake lever...I will just need to look it up.

Motor has been a difficult thing to choose. I live in a fairly flat area with no more than maybe 50 meters height difference closeby, so i dont have any long and steep climbs. BUT im gonna be close to 150 kilos with gear+bike, so that's a lot to move around, plus i like to ride in the forest and heavy load need fair amount of torque to move at slow speeds like that, even if i am pedaling. I wouldnt want to compromise my forest-experience with a superheavy bike that has no power to carry itself with grace, or that ruins my fun by making me constantly worry about overheating.

I ended up choosing HT3525 as I fooled around with the ebike simulator checking out various alternatives. Finally i concluded that torque motors are less prone to overheating when climbing or accelerating and are thus more foolproof way to go, and so i chose the 3525 of those motors that were available. But that thing is slow...So, i need to boost the voltage. The simulator shows that at 88 volts i would get a top speed of about 60kmh which is plenty for me. But that voltage seems out of bounds for the normal controllers. I guess i could live with 72 volts and about 50kmh tops. That would certainly make things less customized, cheaper and simpler...

The reasoning behind by overextending is that i would rather do this well enough on the first time, with high quality and robust components, so that i wouldnt later need to buy more stuff and do things many times over. I know, ambitious for a beginner, but i have pulled many things thru with this mentality. Im a clever boy even if i dont know much about electricity :lol: As a matter of fact i hope to learn a lot about it while doing this. I find it fascinating already. Sometimes i wish i had stayed in school when i was a kid

Thanks again for your replies!

ebike-infected

 

[ebike-infected]

After some thinking and reading, i have arrived, at this point, -to the following. Please let me know what you think.

72V 45A Digital sensorless controller
HT3525 motor backwheel
And for batteries, no Lipo but instead 12 packs of ZIPPY Flightmax 4200mAh 5S1P 30C LiFePo4 Pack
Connect these together to make 66 volt 12,6 Ah battery. I would fit all the batteries into a steelsheet/plastic/glassfiber-box that would go inside the frametriangle.

Then, if still available, buy wiring to this setup from icecube, i saw he had very nice, thoughtout wiring!

What kind of a charger for this?
What else do i need for a working set?

Oh i been wondering what the crystalyte APM display does and is it necessary for something essential?
Can i do all the stuff with cycleanalyst too or will i need both?
Do i need the standalone-version of cycleanalyst for this?
Do the throttle-regulators work with higher voltages? I just want a simple throttle, no blinkin lights needed...

 

[amberwolf]

for pedal-torque sensing and control of the motor, the new still-in-beta-testing V3 of the Cycle Analyst may well do what you want, once it is finished and released. Check out the beta thread:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964

 

[ebike-infected]

for pedal-torque sensing and control of the motor, the new still-in-beta-testing V3 of the Cycle Analyst may well do what you want, once it is finished and released. Check out the beta thread:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964

That is SO cool! thanks for the link!

 

[keysersoze310]

Hey looks like you're building something nearly identical to my bike!

I used an older kona stinky, which I believe has the same frame as the coiler, with an HT3525 and 82V lipo. I can therefore predict a few of the problems you are going to run into.

If you use DB torque arms you are going to have to modify the torque arm or your bike. See my build thread and responses for kona torque arm info:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36826
My epoxy ended up failing and the thick DB torque arms wouldn't let my derailleur shift to the lowest gear, so I'm going with two ebikes.ca torque arms now.

You will probably have problems with your HFX9 calipers not having enough clearance from the screws on the motor. You might be able to get it to work with a spacer (ebikes.ca) behind the disk to increase clearance, and possibly you will have to file down the calipers a bit too. I ended up getting a 203mm BB7 brake, which gives me plenty of clearance.


Only 66V now? At some point you can bet that you're gonna want to go higher

 

[ebike-infected]

keyzersoze310;

I read your build thread, very informative and thats a really cool looking ride you got there! very stealthy too! How does that batterybag position work if you go offroad?

I am thinking of putting the batteries inside the frame to a box of sorts. That somewhat limits the battery-options.. But i think that i could in the future connect the batteries 5*2 making 82 volts too!

How are those ebikes.ca torque arms working for you? Did you do customization for them or did they fit straight away?
They robust enough for your system?

Thanks for the valuable tips! Much appreciated!

 

[nechaus]

Hey,

If you want something really stealthy.. you should try a battery backpack.
If you dont cheap out on a really good backpack, it is a really good ride.
alot of high end back packs that are designed for MTB can actually protect your back if you fall off..as well as your batteries if you do it right


Today I should be making a battery back pack with 20 s 16 ah lipo, thats about 9 kg including the back pack.
Going to run the anderson power poles up the seat pole, ill have three, 2 main power leads and a precharge resistor connection.

9 kg is nothing for me on my back when i regularly bench 130kg at the gym
plus its more of a work out if your pedaling and unfit, alot of people dont like it, but they just need to get use to it.

 

[ebike-infected]

Hey,

If you want something really stealthy.. you should try a battery backpack.
If you dont cheap out on a really good backpack, it is a really good ride.
alot of high end back packs that are designed for MTB can actually protect your back if you fall off..as well as your batteries if you do it right


Today I should be making a battery back pack with 20 s 16 ah lipo, thats about 9 kg including the back pack.
Going to run the anderson power poles up the seat pole, ill have three, 2 main power leads and a precharge resistor connection.

9 kg is nothing for me on my back when i regularly bench 130kg at the gym
plus its more of a work out if your pedaling and unfit, alot of people dont like it, but they just need to get use to it.

Hey nechaus! thanks for your post!

I have been thinking about the backbag option also. But, i finally concluded that having the batteries as low as possible and as near as possible to the central point of mass would be better for handling and balance. Further still, i have been carrying my kid(s) in a kid-back-pack on many a trek to the woods and other places, and my experience is that after a few hours i start to get numb and uncomfortable on my shoulders and neck. I think it is much a matter of just getting used to. I used to get uncomfortable after 10 minutes when i started and now can go on for a few hours, even as the kids are getting heavier by the day! ...Anyways, one option i have been playing with is to have the basic powersupply attached to the bike, and then have extra cells in the backpack if i need to go longer trips. But i dont think i can make a sales speech good enough to convince my dear "government" to accept me doubling my ebike battery budget. Getting enough flak as it is at the moment! I may be brave enough to try that a bit later on! :lol:

The backbag would be ultrastealthy though, no question about that! And i see the airbag potential too, having landed on my backpack a few times when colliding with cars! But thinking that i'd have batteries in the pack and then landing on them makes me feel uneasy, but then im thinking a regular backpack... SO, do you have a link to some good alternatives i could check out?

130 kg! that's quite impressive! I could do maybe half of that But then, im lightly built, my shadow thin enough to be optimized for desert-running!

 

[ebike-infected]

Here is my prototype for the battery box. What do you think?
Does it scream "ebike! lets stop that fker and fine him!" OR is it stealthy enough to avoid the laymans' attention?

Here is the box viewed from dickpit...imean cockpit...i mean... who the hell came up with this term anyway ?! ehhmm... The view from piloting position!

And here is my cardboard/gorillatape batterybox with the paper-batteries (I do CAD too but for this i went oldschool ) 8)

And yeah, i know it wont go very fast with this setup, but it will be lightweight!
Me and my 3year old boy are enjoying the same stuff, he has noisy "throttletwist" and i have my cardboard/paper battery! 8)
I think i have heard all the jokes you could possibly make up about it!!!

 

[Drunkskunk]

looks good.

There are better places for the controller. if you ever want to drop the seat and ride a trail, you'd be screwed.
There's plenty of room on the downtube. I stuck mine between the cranks.

 

[fechter]

And here is my cardboard/gorillatape batterybox with the paper-batteries (I do CAD too but for this i went oldschool ) 8)

To me, that IS CAD (cardboard aided design).
I use that method extensively.
Looks like a great project.

 

[keysersoze310]

keyzersoze310;

I read your build thread, very informative and thats a really cool looking ride you got there! very stealthy too! How does that batterybag position work if you go offroad?

I am thinking of putting the batteries inside the frame to a box of sorts. That somewhat limits the battery-options.. But i think that i could in the future connect the batteries 5*2 making 82 volts too!

How are those ebikes.ca torque arms working for you? Did you do customization for them or did they fit straight away?
They robust enough for your system?

Thanks for the valuable tips! Much appreciated!

My original (and current) idea is to put the batteries in the frame as well. I wanted to put 8Ah in the triangle and an additional 8Ah up front near the handlebars. On road, the front mount batteries works so incredibly well that I have haven't felt any need to create a triangle battery holder. Most of the time when people come up to talk to me about my bike, they don't even realize it is electric until I tell them, and even then I usually have to point out where the batteries are, and that was exactly what I was hoping for.

Off road, I think there would be a slight improvement by putting the batteries in the frame, especially on very slow technical stuff. I've tried putting the batteries in a backpack as well, and I wouldn't recommend it for off road. I'll be making a triangle frame bag or box like yours in the very near future to see if it does improve downhill mountain handling.

I'll post a picture of my new torque arms in my build thread soon. I wanna get some input from the forum, but I think they're going to work well enough without customizing.

 

[ebike-infected]

looks good.

There are better places for the controller. if you ever want to drop the seat and ride a trail, you'd be screwed.
There's plenty of room on the downtube. I stuck mine between the cranks.

Thanks. And you are ofcourse right! I... just felt that sticking the controller underneath the frame would make the bike less stealthy by adding to allready filled up area of the bike. Obviously it would be best position considering point of mass/balance, and since the 72volt controller is pretty big, underneath the frame is a very likely final location. Also, the break- and gearwire are a bit on the way in the seatpole position, so i would need to reroute them too even if i came up with a clever way to attach the controller to the seatpole.. I also considered putting the controller to the fork, but plenty wires there too and all that... Will have to test out different places once i have the actual controller.

To me, that IS CAD (cardboard aided design).
I use that method extensively.
Looks like a great project.

Cardboard Aided Design! Thats great! :lol: Thanks for the compliment, i will do my best!

Keysersoze; The more i look at your batterybag the more i like it. It's very stealthy and looks in line with the bike. And now that i look at my bike at the same spot, i realize it would make for a perfect placement for a batterybag in my bike too. Maybe for controller too... If i keep the framebattery as the "mains" and then for longer roadtrips etc just add the frontal bag for extra Ah. Hard to beat that setup! Looking forward to see your thread update on those torquearms!

Thanks again for the replys. I feel inspired and that's a precious thing in life!

 

[ebike-infected]

I'll soon have all the components ready to start building. Been tinkering about with the ebrakes and controller placement and wiring etc. As soon as i have all the components i will post pictures and details.

Meanwhile, anyone want to share a good idea on how to arrange the recharging? Tips on a good recharge setup for 12 LiFePo batteries (5s 4200mAh 16,5V) ?
It would be nice to be able to recharge on road, so charger should be portable and wall socket compatible.

I tried calling the local RC shops for a good recharge setup but they all seemed very confused and uncertain and were proposing weird setups which to my understanding would even be dangerous or at the least very unpractical.

 

[icecube57]

My harness allows for parallel charging of all your packs at the same time. If you dont wanna lug your rc charging setup when ur on the road you may wanna find an alloy shell 200-600w charger or a king power charger and set it for like 24.9v to allow for safe bulk charging up to about 90-95% full charge without balancing and they fit in a book bag.. just depends on how agressive you want to charge when you do have the opportunity.

 

[ebike-infected]

That sounds great. So, if i get a 600W alloy shell charger, and my battery is 12*4,2Ah*16,5V = 830W so i should be able to charge the batterypack in less than 2 hours?
What about balancing then? do these do balancing or do i need a separate gadget for that?

 

[icecube57]

Balance everyonce in a while like every 20-30 cycles check on the voltages in you parallel groups and balance charge on your rc c harger as necessary after you have broken in your packs for the first 10 cycles or so you can bulk charge to 95% and don discharge below 15-20% ... the cells will stay balance... when making a battery pack you factor in a reserve and carry more than you need. I personally had a 66v 20AH pack and it was hard for me do discharge past 10-15 AH. I bulk charged and kept an eye on my cells with a hobby king lipo balancer. i charged in parallel so all my packs sat at nearly identical levels.

 

[ebike-infected]

Thanks for everyone who helped me out !

My bike is now amplified and it is pretty much everything i was hoping for. Been riding a few hundred km so far and it is just so much fun!
Sure there are still prototype-problems and issues i need to solve, and better solutions to use. BUT the Creature goes, and it goes fast and strong! Frightening at times

I'll post a build thread (and link it here too) to show what kind of problems i ran into and how i solved them. I Think it should be of help to others. Many of the build threads i read from people who posted to help me, really helped me a lot! thanks for those too!

 

[Thriller]

Did you ever get your battery case figured out? Did you consider going 48V or was that too slow?