Landspeed Record Attempt

[Kingfish]

^^Oooh! I can see this turning into a build thread

John in CR: Methinks if you put some pedals on with a single rear sprocket that it would qualify. But do we need to pedal as we try to set the record - above 80 mph

~KF

 

[skyungjae]

Is there already a record in existence. That's could be a good place to start regarding requirements for what defines the e-bike.

 

[John in CR]

^^Oooh! I can see this turning into a build thread

John in CR: Methinks if you put some pedals on with a single rear sprocket that it would qualify. But do we need to pedal as we try to set the record - above 80 mph

~KF

Zappy's wooden velo has the potential for well over 100mph. I'm seeing somewhere in the 120-130mph range is possible running as a hubmotor. Use the calculator at http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm with the Quest velo as the bike, and power requirements get to 10kw at the wheel. I'm getting that already on just 20s, and based on the lack of heat it's nowhere near saturation with 15kw input. No load of 74mph with 65mph top speed with 0 aero treatment also supports that view. The far better than typical stator lams and low pole count of 12 (24 mags), means going to 32s is a non-issue.

Going to 32s puts no-load at roughly 118mph, but that's with a 19.2" OD tire. A 24" OD wheel (a 17" moto tire) puts no-load speed at 147mph, which is just about perfect for 125mph. That's with the Quest's aerodynamics, and I suspect Zappy's is far more aerodynamic. Look at the White Hawk, also in the calculator, and it has only half the power requirements for the same high speeds.

Aero is obviously everything. This analysis is with a stock sealed motor running well below stressful range, so all we'd have to do is tape up the wiring harness at the exit and make sure the axle seals have grease to make sure salt doesn't get in. The tire itself should ensure the motor gets enough air flow for a 5 minute run, but for insurance and an efficiency boost we make some semi-circles of freezer packs and insulating foam to keep the motor packed until it's time to run....or even cooler (pardon the pun) we pick up some of those high power peltier coolers to stick on and run off of solar panels till it's time to run. The motor won't need that stuff, but at least it will give the team something to do while waiting.

Without a wind tunnel for testing we don't know our drag coefficient, so to make sure we don't gear too steeply or leave a lot of speed on the table, it would be a good idea to make up a few different size wheels to easily swap out via the bolt on rim flange. Then do runs with progressively large wheels. That means setting up the frame and wiring to easily pull the rim and tire is a build consideration.

Another consideration is to put 2 freewheels between the pedals and the wheel. At record type speeds a freewheel failure could be horrific with only one between you and the wheel.

A velo is going to need a verital tail to ensure such a lightweight vehicle stays straight. What about some surfaces for downward force?

Who's got the balls to ride in a 150lb or so land rocket it at over 100mph?

John

 

[MadRhino]

Who's got the balls to ride in a 150lb or so land rocket it at over 100mph?

John

I do, even if it was half that weight

...and I am just an old horseman
I know many kids would, and beat me at it :|

 

[Kingfish]

John in CR: Like Formula 1 trim surfaces + a long tail. Make a few test runs to set the angles of attack. Pray for no crosswinds.

Brave though I yam... yet can’t imagine >125mph on a bicycle without armor; guess I lack the stones.
Consider a roll cage? KF

 

[John in CR]

John in CR: Like Formula 1 trim surfaces + a long tail. Make a few test runs to set the angles of attack. Pray for no crosswinds.

Brave though I yam... yet can’t imagine >125mph on a bicycle without armor; guess I lack the stones.
Consider a roll cage? KF

As MadRhino pointed out, having a pilot shouldn't be a concern. SeriousKnot probably is itching to ride anyway, and we've got plenty of racers along with guys like MadRhino, who go to the edge of cliffs, point their bikes downhill, and go for it.

Here the danger is going to be a different. The tires would be well within limits and the nature of the system means a mechanical failure would require a boneheaded human failure. We should be able to design out the possibility of a speed wobble. If the decision is made to cut through the air with finesse instead of pushing through it by brute force, meaning a closed or almost totally enclosed aerodynamic shell, then the 2 primary risks I see are:
1. The battery- At a minimum we're looking at being able to pull 10C for 5 minutes. That's essentially continuous for a battery and something north of 100A isn't something to take lightly, especially with salt getting everywhere like sand does at the beach. A failure is unacceptable, so overkill in every aspect of the battery required. Not only is the pilot's life at risk inside an enclosure with no means of quick exit, but a battery fire at such an event is exposure none of us want.
2. Going airborne- I'm sure many of you have seen the video of the HPV going airborne on pedal power. I call it the flying lima bean. We're talking about over 50% higher speed with something not a whole lot heavier. A good tail can help keep it directionally stable like an arrow, hopefully worst case being an uneventful sliding slop like the lima bean. With the talent available on the forum I'm sure we can enlist the help of someone with experience to get trim surfaces right without resorting to educated guesswork plus trial and error.

 

[Seriousknot]

As far as safety is concerned, the pilot would be wearing full leathers and there are Paramedics setup halfway down the track. A partially faired bike might be sufficient rather than using a fully enclosed fairing, that way the rider could bail off if necessary. The salt is a forgiving surface to run on as well, that is why cars can actually spin out rather than flipping and rolling. I'm thinking about using moped or motorcycle rims so we can use speed rated motorcycle tires. The salt is very moist so it really doesn't fly everywhere like sand does, it tends to stick together. I have to focus on the Kickstarter account and on creating a good sales video and consider what kind of rewards we might offer. Perhaps a reward for anyone contributing $5,000.00 or more could be the opportunity be a part of the pit crew and get their name in the record books with us as a participant. There is a limit to the number of names though, I would say about ten maybe, and those of us who put this together should come first. If anyone has any ideas on the rewards lets hear them. Also, there is going to be room for advertising space on the fairing so a corporation might be interested sponsoring us as well.

 

[steveclv]

You might fine the following interesting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9v_KV3cQF0

When I was a kid back in the UK I owned a 49cc 'moped' (motorcyle with pedals) made by Kreidler - it was good for about 42mph but I was amazed to find out that Kreidler held the word record for a 50cc motorcyle at 130mph

If you check it out around 6:30 you will see the fairing that they developed - that was the secret to getting the sort of speeds you guys are talking about - get the drag down as much as possible and you can achieve amazing speeds with relatively little power.

Man, I loved my Kreidler

 

[Farfle]

A generic velo fairing on a long wheelbase trike with 125 gp bike front 17" rain tires on all corners. Throw the big dual stator mars motor with a badass controller from methods, 88v 15-20ah nano pack. boom 100+ mph easy.

 

[Farfle]

Duurp, accidental repost

 

[Samd]

Getting double posts lately too.

Didn't DocBass set a record recently on youtubes? Or is the lack of sleep making my braintop 'thingy' all 'thingy'?

 

[John in CR]

A generic velo fairing on a long wheelbase trike with 125 gp bike front 17" rain tires on all corners. Throw the big dual stator mars motor with a badass controller from methods, 88v 15-20ah nano pack. boom 100+ mph easy.

but that would have to go in the trike category.

 

[John in CR]

Perhaps a reward for anyone contributing $5,000.00 or more could be the opportunity be a part of the pit crew and get their name in the record books with us as a participant.

Things suddenly went big budget for an ebike. I thought this was a low budget deal getting to use some tag along space with a friend who was going. For $5,000 I could put together and test the drive system down here, while my son and his friend build the bike and battery pack. Then fly up to put it together before the drive over from BR, and have at least a grand toward lodging and food.

 

[jansevr]

You might fine the following interesting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9v_KV3cQF0

When I was a kid back in the UK I owned a 49cc 'moped' (motorcyle with pedals) made by Kreidler - it was good for about 42mph but I was amazed to find out that Kreidler held the word record for a 50cc motorcyle at 130mph

If you check it out around 6:30 you will see the fairing that they developed - that was the secret to getting the sort of speeds you guys are talking about - get the drag down as much as possible and you can achieve amazing speeds with relatively little power.

Man, I loved my Kreidler

with a full fairing like this, 100mph should be no problem. it really depends how fast you want to go. it might be cheaper to have a partial fairing and have a goal of around 100. with a full fairing i dont see why 200 mph isn't a possibility. if electric motorcycles can do it a full fairing will at half the power

 

[Kingfish]

I can't see doing 200 mph and pedaling.

It appears to me that these ebike records are going to become constrained, bracketed by power-assist in kW + human effort. The gray area is wide open until some international committee gets to smelling their own and want to control free adventure.

The thing that's been on my mind is the transmission; the gearing: I have 53:11 which is comfortable above 28 mph to about 36 mph. After that it's a mad race and pointless above 42 mph. It seems to me that to go beyond 100 mph we're going to need a tripler.

Therefore the questions I have are:

• Do we need to pedal from a cold stop?
• Do we need to pedal at our maximum targeted speed?
• How much distance do we get to achieve our target speed?
• How many runs do we have to make? (I presume it's at least two)
• What is the time limit for succeeding runs?

Make sense?
~KF

 

[Lebowski]

typically there's two runs to be completed within the hour...
Is recharge allowed in this hour ?
How about a battery replacement (instead of recharge) ?

 

[Seriousknot]

The two runs don't have to made within an hour of each other, but two runs do have to be made then the times are averaged. I think $5,000.00 for a Bonneville record attempt would be bare bones. Lodging, travel, entry fees food etc. and the vehicle itself. $10,000.00 would be the minimum to be comfortable. The bike itself would cost 3 to 4k and that doesn't leave much left over. As far as pedaling, we won't have to pedal at all as long as the pedals are operational. Ususally the motorcycles get a push off by the pit crew and the cars get pushed by another vehicle until they can take off on their own due to the high gearing they run. The Southern California Timing Assoc is the sanctioning body during Speedweek and there is another group in charge for The World of Speed later in the year. There won't be any disputes unless the the previous record holder makes a stink, then we will have to defend our position. There is the possibility that they could make a separate class for open unfaired bikes and also for a faired bike, so theoretically we could run in two classes just by removing the fairing.

 

[skyungjae]

I can't see doing 200 mph and pedaling.

It appears to me that these ebike records are going to become constrained, bracketed by power-assist in kW + human effort. The gray area is wide open until some international committee gets to smelling their own and want to control free adventure.

The thing that's been on my mind is the transmission; the gearing: I have 53:11 which is comfortable above 28 mph to about 36 mph. After that it's a mad race and pointless above 42 mph. It seems to me that to go beyond 100 mph we're going to need a tripler.

Therefore the questions I have are:

• Do we need to pedal from a cold stop?
• Do we need to pedal at our maximum targeted speed?
• How much distance do we get to achieve our target speed?
• How many runs do we have to make? (I presume it's at least two)
• What is the time limit for succeeding runs?

Those are very valid points to bring up. When does the e-bike cross the threshold of becoming an e-motorcycle? If Chalo were writing the regulations, pedaling would likely be a requirement.
Make sense?
~KF

 

[John in CR]

Since the only hubmotor for motorcycles has a Kv that's too low to put a record very far out there, and their stator steel makes the suspect for high rpm, I'd like to be involved in a hubmotored ebike record. That enables the beginning of a class and a record not as easily beaten. No telling how many Burt Monro's are out there right now who saw the pitiful excuse for a record (it only beats the human powered record by 1 or 2 mph, which IS pitiful), and are strapping big electric motors onto bikes in their garage right now. OTOH, while busting past 85mph with a hubbie may not be all that difficult, breaking 100mph and holding it for a mile or two isn't as easy as it might seem.

 

[Seriousknot]

Yeah I am leaning toward a hub motored bike myself. But I wouldn't be against building even two bikes or three for different classes. The pits last year were about 5 miles long and four rows deep and your daily driver would be really useful as a pit bike. The atmosphere is somewhat like a carnival with lots of vendors everywhere. Anybody got some really good footage of their Ebike going fast?? I need to produce a video soon....

 

[John in CR]

... your daily driver would be really useful as a pit bike.

Pit bike. LOL! My daily rider is about to post a speed no hubmotors have touched without burning up. If it won't pass the 84mph as is, then an afternoon on aerodynamic mods is sure to get it higher, and that's with 270lb me on it. I'd nominate one of DocBass's ebikes to be the pit bike instead :lol: , but those motors too inefficient and have to be ventilated, a terrible idea for use on the salt flats.

OTOH, if we could get an early enough run with it, it would be pretty cool to break the record and then use it to run around.

Miles of pits multiple rows deep...Sounds like an incredible amount of waiting to me. Do you at least have some idea of the time you'll run, so you can spend time checking out the vehicles?

John

 

[Kingfish]

Pit bike. LOL! My daily rider is about to post a speed no hubmotors have touched without burning up. If it won't pass the 84mph as is, then an afternoon on aerodynamic mods is sure to get it higher, and that's with 270lb me on it. I'd nominate one of DocBass's ebikes to be the pit bike instead :lol: , but those motors too inefficient and have to be ventilated, a terrible idea for use on the salt flats.

If someone wanted to sponsor me - I'd gladly be your jockey 8)

I'm just sayin... KF :wink:

 

[John in CR]

Pit bike. LOL! My daily rider is about to post a speed no hubmotors have touched without burning up. If it won't pass the 84mph as is, then an afternoon on aerodynamic mods is sure to get it higher, and that's with 270lb me on it. I'd nominate one of DocBass's ebikes to be the pit bike instead :lol: , but those motors too inefficient and have to be ventilated, a terrible idea for use on the salt flats.

If someone wanted to sponsor me - I'd gladly be your jockey 8)

I'm just sayin... KF :wink:

KF,

I thought you were like me and didn't like to go fast. We're talking about making a bike low and sleek enough to break 100mph just going to 32s vs the 65 I can reach on 20s right now. That's with a tire that has a 19.2" OD. I climb steep mountain roads with it now without heat stress, so we'll be able to swing a much large tire. Whether a wheel of around 24" or one in the 26" OD range is best for the run will probably come down to aerodynamics, but even with an open but aero vehicle 120mph is very realistic and mid 130's a good goal.

Actually after thinking about it, instead of 32s or 33s lipo, I think A123's are the way to go using 41s or 42s. Then only charge them to 3.4V, which is nearly full, and it still stays safely away from controller voltage limits fresh off the charger. The beauty in it is that the voltage will remain nearly constant during the run, and I think it will make it easier to pass the first time trap at higher voltage than with Lipos but still stay conservative for the controllers. With a lipo pack each mile will get notably slower.

John

 

[e-beach]

.........but even with an open but aero vehicle 120mph is very realistic and mid 130's a good goal...........John

"con respecto alto," do you have a frame design for such speed?

[youtube]rTfu0hjVtzE[/youtube]

 

[John in CR]

.........but even with an open but aero vehicle 120mph is very realistic and mid 130's a good goal...........John

"con respecto alto," do you have a frame design for such speed?

No, but it certainly wouldn't be untested or made of plastic like the crazy frenchman pointed down the volano in Nicaragua. Riding on perfectly flat plain with the biggest bumps still small enough that the tires can absorb them with no suspension, is low stress enough that the frame is the easy part. That's not the part I'm volunteering for anyway, though I guess I'll need to build something to test the motor on the highway down here. Seeing what my SuperV will do at 32s is a good first step, and my biggest concern in doing that is getting that cheap ass Kenda Flame off the front.