Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[The Toecutter]

I attempted to install the rear 7 speed cassette onto my Leafbike motor today and ran into a few problems.

The cassette is a SunRace 11-34T 7 speed. The outer cogs, gears 6 and 7, 13T and 11T in size respectively, come apart and the first 5 gears are riveted together. When I place them onto the Leafbike motor's freehub body, the first 6 gears want to slide back and forth on the freehub body while gear 7 has a lip that prevents it from going inward toward the hub all the way against the other gears. This leaves a massive gap between 6th and 7th gear. The lockring tightens down, but gears 1-6 can still slide freely.

So a friend and I made a spacer out of some metal pipe with a 34mm inner diameter hole and a sidewall thickness of about 3mm. We kept having to shave more and more off to make it fit. I had to use a flathead to pry the one of the dropouts against the motor axle to fit the motor into the dropouts, requiring an additional 0.5-1mm of clearance that the dropouts didn't otherwise have.

Now it is at a point where it has no play when I tighten the lockring down. BUT, pedaling forward OR backpedaling now takes significant effort and there is an intermittent high-pitched rubbing noise. The cassette does not spin freely by hand in either direction, nor do the pedals. I only averaged 8.6 mph on the ride home because of the friction involved when rotating the pedals(I normally average about 18-23 mph on that route without any motor at all), even though the trike coasted downhill quite effortlessly, peaking at over 30 mph without any pedal input.

I suspect the lockring is rubbing up against the inside of the dropout area on the frame when I try to rotate the pedals. I also suspect that even though the lockring locked the cassette in place, it may not be threaded in all the way. Which means I need for the spacer to be slightly more narrow, by about 0.5-1mm. But given the machinery used to make the spacer, it is not really feasible to shave it down anymore while keeping the spacer straight and aligned, and de-burring it already took over an hour.

So for those of you with a cassette version of this motor, what type and size of spacers did you use on the freehub body between the motor case and the cassette? I need to correct this issue before I can proceed with the remainder of the conversion. I'm hoping to get it rideable on a regular basis sometime this week.

 

[goatman]

i pull the cassette lock ring off so i can unscrew the nut off the axle, put a washer in there and put the nut back on the shaft, put lock ring back on.

its way easier to find a washer to fit inside the nut than outside the nut,

outside the nut the washer needs to be skinny or the lockring will rub on it

 

[The Toecutter]

So you put the nut inside of the cassette? I thought the nut was supposed to go on the exposed portion of the axle outside of the dropout facing away from the frame, wish a washer underneath it up against the frame.

Do you have any pictures of what you're describing?

 

[goatman]

this nut, i put washers behind it so the nut just sticks out past the lockring. then the nut is what touches the inside of the rear drop out

 

[ZeroEm]

by goatman » Jan 05 2021 2:08am

this nut, i put washers behind it so the nut just sticks out past the lockring. then the nut is what touches the inside of the rear drop out

My current setup has a 7 speed just as yours "The Toecutter" 5 rings together and two free. I made a washer to go behind the nut to space the frame from the 12T ring or outer ring. The problem with this spacer was the outer diameter. I had purchased a pack of spacers that varied in thickness and was splined like the cassette and picked one that took up most of the play but not all.

Did the outer spacer first then set the inner. Think the outer spacer was from the pack and for some reason the outer diameter was to big by a several thousands. I almost have enough room to put an 8 speed cassette. The frame would needed spread 1-3 mm and did not want the stress on the forks. It's been 1.5 years so memory does not hold more detail. The spacers were Aluminium.

 

[The Toecutter]

this nut, i put washers behind it so the nut just sticks out past the lockring. then the nut is what touches the inside of the rear drop out

Thanks. Is the orientation they are depicted in the picture the same orientation as with the cassette installed? Is the nut flanged at the base, and/or are those the same nut and washers that the motor came with? How did you insert the lockring tool with the nut sticking out in the area that the lockring tool has to be inserted? I'll have to look for something to put inside of the freehub body to be installed between the cassette and the motor case by the looks of things.

 

[goatman]

i didnt have room for any washers in between that nut and the drop out. i still need to flex the rear triangle a little bit to get the motor mounted on my trike but i dont need a screw driver to pry with to get it on, i can do it with my hands

 

[The Toecutter]

I found a rusty old nut to use as a spacer and put the shiny thin nut that came with the motor against it with the shiny thin nut facing the frame. It worked. No more lockring rubbing the frame, and the rear wheel spins relatively freely(bearing in mind the cogging losses of the motor are slowing it down).

I cannot make a direct comparison yet of how hard it is to pedal unpowered with the motor installed versus the old rear wheel without a motor because I have the tail section of the body shell off, which greatly impacts the aerodynamics, and the rear tire is not inflated to the proper pressure yet. Thus far, the cogging losses seem small, about like a brake rotor very slightly dragging on one wheel. I still managed to reach 26 mph on flat ground without anything close to full effort, and can lazily pedal along at 18-19 mph on the flat with ease enough to probably do it for hours. Not bad for not having the tail, although with the tail my cruising speed is closer to 24 mph on the flat and I can sprint to about 37-38 mph without a motor installed. It will be interesting to see how this is impacted by the hub motor with the tail back on.

I will finish converting it to an EV and work all the major bugs out before re-installing the tail, because the tail needs to be modified with new clearances for the rear brake rotor mount and needs to allow easier removal/installation of the rear wheel for tire changes.

 

[The Toecutter]

Yesterday I got the torque arms on.

On the drive side I installed Grin's Torque Arm Kit v4, and on the brake rotor side I installed ES member dmwahl's custom KMX clamping torque arm(https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=69073).

Hopefully this will be enough to handle what may end up being up to around 150 Nm torque at stall with motor plus pedal input combined, depending on which gear I have the pedal drivetrain in. ebikes.ca simulator says the motor should make 87 Nm at 96A by itself if it's a 5T wind. Leafbike told me this one is a 4T wind but I'm not sure of that because they also said this was the default winding, which is actually 5T. Either way, doesn't matter to me much. I just want to get the damned thing going.

 

[ZeroEm]

Did some thinking on my setup. On the gear/cassette side have one washer between the jam nut and drop out/frame. Then added a shim to move the cassette away from the frame so chain would not rub, the shim's diameter had to be reduced enought so the chain would not ride on it. Did this by hand trial and error. Then selected a shim the would take up the space between the cassette and motor with out binding. The shim is splined so it does not touch the motor but stops at the end of the splined groves. Hope this is some help.

 

[The Toecutter]

I got everything hooked up and installed the torque sensing bottom bracket. The next step is to program the Phaserunner controller, Cycle Analyst computer, and the Satiator charger. Soon I will have a 46.8V 10.5AH 1,500W setup with 96A max phase current. Once I get my 72V 21AH pack spot welded together and install it, I will increase that to around 4,000W to start(maybe raise that a bit depending on how it does).

I'll still have a lot of work to. Modifying/re-installing the tail section, adding turn signals/brake lights, cleaning up the rats nest of wiring harnesses, mounting the controller/computer with something more solid than zip ties, weatherproofing, finishing the windshield/roof, modifying/re-installing the tail section, among other tasks.

 

[The Toecutter]

It appears that I got the 4T wind. My motor is built into a 26" wheel and I have a Schwalbe Marathon Plus tour 26x1.5" tire in the back.

When I got the Phaserunner controller to spin the motor, it spit out to the laptop that the motor was 11.60 kV. With the wheel off the ground, using a 46.8V nominal pack displaying 53.1V on the Cycle analyst, the motor spun to 50 mph. The math doesn't work out exact, but it's close. Could be slightly miscalibrated CA, speedometers could be off on the tire size(I have a seperate magnetic bike speedometer with its own display that displays the exact same speed as the CA, the CA using the hall effect sensors), or any other number of things.

But, she runs. I was sliding/drifting around in the snow on a 4-lane road in traffic at over 40 mph, with only a 1,250W limit. This thing is nuts! Just wait until I put in a 21S6P pack in it and set a 5 kW limit, or even go higher. It will basically be a highway-speed capable open-wheeled racing microcar styled like a 40s era salt flats bellytank Lakester that you can pedal. With zero crashworthiness and built of bicycle parts. :lol:

 

[john61ct]

How does the Phaserunner handle those higher power rates?

 

[The Toecutter]

Don't know first hand. Supposedly it can handle 70A continuous from the battery if I install a heat sink, which at 75.6 Vnom, is about 5,300W.

It has handled 1,250W very well today.

 

[john61ct]

I've read phase current max is 90A?

Admittedly I've kept my focus more on low speed torque rather than acceleration over say 20mph

so believe I need the higher amp versions of the ASI units that the PhaseRunner is based on.

 

[ZeroEm]

by john61ct » Jan 16 2021 1:22am

I've read phase current max is 90A?

Admittedly I've kept my focus more on low speed torque rather than acceleration over say 20mph

so believe I need the higher amp versions of the ASI units that the PhaseRunner is based on.

Lately the ASI 2000 has been looking good that should max out the leafmotor.

 

[john61ct]

Are all the current ASI models true FOC ?

 

[ZeroEm]

Going out on a limb here. All are FOC that I have looked at . Phaserunner is from the ASI 800, that should cover a lot if not most E-bikes. Only reason for me wanting ASI 2000 is not running to the limits of the controller. At the moment with my single batter limited to 36 amps (not peak) as not to stress the battery. Wanting to mount both of my battery's then I would have 72 amps continuous. That would keep the Phaserunner in thermal roll back most of the time. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Just to make clear not running a phaserunner using one of Grinfineon Controllers 40a.

 

[The Toecutter]

Wanting to mount both of my battery's then I would have 72 amps continuous. That would keep the Phaserunner in thermal roll back most of the time. Correct me if i'm wrong.

With an appropriate heatsink, the Phaserunner should be capable of 70A continuous. If you only hit 72A most of the time, I would expect you'd avoid thermal rollback, as it would take 72A for many minutes straight uninterrupted to reach. But that's just going by the manufacturer's specs. My own experience with the Phaserunner thus far is not exceeding 25A battery current. No issues yet.

 

[John in CR]

Going out on a limb here. All are FOC that I have looked at . Phaserunner is from the ASI 800, that should cover a lot if not most E-bikes. Only reason for me wanting ASI 2000 is not running to the limits of the controller. At the moment with my single batter limited to 36 amps (not peak) as not to stress the battery. Wanting to mount both of my battery's then I would have 72 amps continuous. That would keep the Phaserunner in thermal roll back most of the time. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Just to make clear not running a phaserunner using one of Grinfineon Controllers 40a.

What's the phase-to-phase resistance of the different winds of Leaf motor? Maybe a 3 turn could handle 70A, but no way any of the others could come close to handling 70A continuous, at least not without significant motor cooling mods.

 

[neptronix]

With an appropriate heatsink, the Phaserunner should be capable of 70A continuous. If you only hit 72A most of the time, I would expect you'd avoid thermal rollback, as it would take 72A for many minutes straight uninterrupted to reach. But that's just going by the manufacturer's specs. My own experience with the Phaserunner thus far is not exceeding 25A battery current. No issues yet.

In theory. But remember that it is a 6FET controller, so you'd better bring some SERIOUS cooling modifications to run it continuously at it's absolute peak. You will need more than the world's largest heatsink, because your limit is hot spots of heat in various electrical components, not just the FETs themselves.

 

[john61ct]

What does Grin rate the Phaserunner for continuous motor amps?

Found it:

The use of extra finned heatsinks thermally linked to the Phaserunner base can increase this continuous phase current to nearly 70 amps, while the current limit if placed inside an insulated cavity or bag with no airflow at all will be much lower, around 30A.

 

[john61ct]

Going out on a limb here. All are FOC that I have looked at . Phaserunner is from the ASI 800, that should cover a lot if not most E-bikes. Only reason for me wanting ASI 2000 is not running to the limits of the controller. At the moment with my single batter limited to 36 amps (not peak) as not to stress the battery. Wanting to mount both of my battery's then I would have 72 amps continuous. That would keep the Phaserunner in thermal roll back most of the time. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Just to make clear not running a phaserunner using one of Grinfineon Controllers 40a.

What's the phase-to-phase resistance of the different winds of Leaf motor? Maybe a 3 turn could handle 70A, but no way any of the others could come close to handling 70A continuous, at least not without significant motor cooling mods.

I other words a PR with good heatsinking could max the Leaf, no need to go to a bigger BAC?

 

[The Toecutter]

I other words a PR with good heatsinking could max the Leaf, no need to go to a bigger BAC?

It can almost max it in terms of peak power, but not torque. If I'm not mistaken, a Leafbike motor can take 200A phase current for a few seconds at a time(somewhere less than 10 seconds). The Phaserunner only goes up to 96A. It will take a big pack and a lot of deliberate abuse to burn a Leafbike motor if it's any variety with the thicker 12ga phase wires using a Phaserunner controller. The 5 kW or so the Phaserunner can put out in ideal conditions is toward the limit of what you'd want to run a Leafbike motor at, but some have gone to 7 kW or more.

The Phaserunner is a good choice if you want a solution that gives more than adequate power for any commuter-oriented ebike, but has a low risk of damaging the motor. Mine is tiny and weighs about 1 lb. I can spin the rear wheel from the torque when my pedal effort is high below about 5 mph, and I'm currently only set to 1,250W maximum using a torque sensing bottom bracket and CA3 to drive the controller. The full 96A phase current is on tap. The launch is great after the initial 0.3 seconds of the torque sensor and CA3 reading my pedal input. I haven't done a top speed run yet, but top speed on flattish ground is AT LEAST 44 mph thus far, and this is with only a 46.8V pack. Of course, my vehicle is much more slippery to the air than the average ebike and it's looking like I only need 350-400W total to do 30 mph missing the tail, windshield, roof, and wheel fairings, with rider input accounting for about 1/3 of that, so 5 kW from a 72V pack is going to be flat out ridiculous in this thing once I have the tail, windshield, roof, and wheel fairings on it.

My only complaint thus far is that the Phaserunner needs to be programmed before it can be used. I really like dumb tech more than smart tech. But given that it is an FOC controller and can be precisely tuned to best assist the individual motor used(maximizing efficiency, minimizing noise), this is an unfortunate necessity because of all the different types of hub motors in existence, or even that characteristics can very slightly between individual motors of the same make/model/wind. The software suite did not work for my Linux laptop, although I was able to get it to work with a borrowed Windows one. This delayed me riding it as an EV for a week. If I didn't have a TTL to USB cable, that could have been a month or more due to the screwed up postal services as of late! Talk about cock blocking...

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Yeah, if you're really keen the '1500W' Leafmotor can take a lot. I pushed over 8KW peak through mine and regularly held it at 4-5KW continuous for long periods up hills.
It just takes all the cooling mods...FF, Heatsinks, Venting, and forced air with fans.




I did manage to overheat it still occasionally, usually stopping when I hit 120-130C, but with the fans it cooled off very quickly.

Anyway, I've seen the light of mid drives for the kind of riding I do now and not looking back.

Cheers