BionicOnion
10 mW
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- Aug 12, 2022
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I've followed your build thread a lot and was curious if you have a wh/mi calculation on that velo you mentioned? I didnt see one in my reading...
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Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
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I'd like to also request video footage of said vehicle.
Just to get some semblance of the acceleration!
The leaf can be nutty in a 26" wheel, i can't imagine how it performs in a smaller wheel. it's probably insane.
Just to get some semblance of the acceleration!
The leaf can be nutty in a 26" wheel, i can't imagine how it performs in a smaller wheel. it's probably insane.
The Toecutter
100 kW
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
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- 1,466
Not calculations, data points:
0.007-0.009 kWh/mile @ 30-35 mph with pedaling.
Throttle-only, approximately 400W @ 30 mph
Unmotorized, I did some roll-down tests, input the results into a spreadsheet, and got a CdA estimate of 0.20 m^2. This was with the shell on it.
Without the shell, roughly 900W @ 30 mph throttle only and 0.022-0.027 kWh/mile with pedaling at 30-35 mph.
The Leaf motor is very efficient.
I don't own a smartphone, so no video.
BionicOnion
10 mW
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- Aug 12, 2022
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- 32
So it seems around 18-35ish per mile? Sorry I'm not 100% on the conversion haha or to simplify the shell reduces energy use by half?
The Toecutter
100 kW
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That shell reduced consumption by slightly more than half at 30 mph on throttle only, but as speed rises, the disparity between shelled and unshelled increases because rolling resistance is such a large percentage of the power consumption at lower speeds, and my tires are relative boat anchors.
Rolling resistance losses increase linearly with speed, but aero drag force increases as a square function with speed. Then consider that a fixed pedaling effort between the two can become a greater percentage of motive force as aero drag declines.
My shell was designed without CAD, without a wind tunnel, and with the massive penalty imposed by outboard wheels. With the shell, it has about 1/3 the aero drag of the naked trike, but still 6 times the aero drag of the Milan SL velomobile that I own.
My mediocre to crappy shell showed a 3x reduction in energy consumption at 30 mph with pedaling. It's the difference between getting a 150-200 mile range at 30-35 mph, and getting a 50-60 mile range at 30-35 mph, on a 1.5 kWh pack(it used to have a 46.8V 32AH Greenway pack capable of running 3kW peak when those measurements were taken), with maybe 150-200W of pedaling.
So my trike with shell, 7-10 Wh/mile, without shell, 22-27 Wh/mile, in both cases moderate pedaling effort, 30-35 mph cruising speeds.
Consider that I could pedal a Milan SL to 50 mph on flat ground in a sprint and possibly hold 30 mph for hours, without a motor, to give you a real idea as to the potential of a well-designed body. People who have converted well-designed velomobiles like the Milan or the Quest are finding they only need 5-10 Wh/mile to hold 30 mph without any pedaling, which is about 1/4 the consumption of say, a mountainbike. In the case of the Milan GT, a member of this forum Marc S. can hold 45 mph on like 20 Wh/mile consumption without any pedaling at all vs a mountainbike needing somewhere around 100 Wh/mile to do the same.
My next shell is going to be much more slippery than my last. If it wasn't worth the effort to me, I wouldn't do it. I like having 150+ miles range at "street legal" speeds while keeping the weight low enough that it can still be pedaled faster than a normal bike with the motor disabled on a dead battery and with heavy duty wheels/tires thanks to the aero. With the shell on and the motor shut off, I've done > 20 mph rolling averages over 3+ mile rides when traffic conditions permit, in spite of the Leafbike's cogging torque losses slowing me down.
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Question ..,
Is the "1500W" version the only worthwhile one?
(I'm looking for a 16". Have one of unknown origin, but want a higher kV wind)
I visited the website and randomly clicked on models without regard to wheel diameter. The dyno charts for 750, 1000, and 2000W models at a glance appear the same, only the 1500W differs, for the better.
Admittedly it was a cursory glance, and I'm willing to revisit the activity, but would that be a waste of time, due to the 1500W version being the only decent performer (which isn't sold in a 16" rim)?
Or are the parts interchangeable, so I could buy a 16" shell and 1500W core separately, to combine at my end if they're unwilling to offer it as a standard package?
Is the "1500W" version the only worthwhile one?
(I'm looking for a 16". Have one of unknown origin, but want a higher kV wind)
I visited the website and randomly clicked on models without regard to wheel diameter. The dyno charts for 750, 1000, and 2000W models at a glance appear the same, only the 1500W differs, for the better.
Admittedly it was a cursory glance, and I'm willing to revisit the activity, but would that be a waste of time, due to the 1500W version being the only decent performer (which isn't sold in a 16" rim)?
Or are the parts interchangeable, so I could buy a 16" shell and 1500W core separately, to combine at my end if they're unwilling to offer it as a standard package?
The Toecutter
100 kW
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"Worthwhile" depends upon your goals. If you were building a fast HPV streamliner or a velomobile, the 1,000W version may be the better option due to the higher kV rating, giving you more top speed per V at the expense of less acceleration per A. Most components are limited to 72V nominal so this must be considered. The 1,000W version has a thinner stator, 30mm instead of the standard 35mm, so it will also make less peak power and less continuous power than the 1,500W.
If I'd have known I was eventually going to consider making an AWD trike to the point where I ordered two Grin All-Axle front hub motors, I might have ordered the 1,000W version Leafbike 3T instead just because it would have a closer kV match to my 3T Grin All Axle front motors. That is now irrelevant, since I'm going to turn it into a quad, leaving the 3T rear Leaf motor useless to this vehicle once I make the conversion, so I might need to find a full suspension lowracer or another trike to put this motor into.
I'm considering making a "truck" style delta trike like Amberwolf's build at a later date, and for that, I'd want a 11T wind front 1,500W or maybe 2,000W(if it gives an actual advantage) Leafbike motor, and run a 72V setup. The goal being as much torque per A as possible, so that I never exceed the continuous current rating of the motor or controller, even when lugging a 500+ lb load up a 15% hill at 10 mph. This would be a heavy work vehicle intended to go 20-25 mph maximum.
In terms of overall efficiency, peak power vs mass, and versatility, the 1,500W appears to be the best version of this motor.
The only way to know for sure how all of them compare would be to dyno test all variants.
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FWIW, I highly recommend using a rear motor drive system--if it's built anything like either of my mine (SB Cruiser or Raine Trike), the front will not have enough traction in various conditions, especially going up even a small slope.
The rear motor system would have *more* traction when loaded down so doesn't have this issue. (and so it will work better for regen braking too, if you want to use that; keeping in mind that doing so will heat the motor and wiring and controller up quite significantly on every braking event, whether using FOC variable regen or sine/trap on/off regen).
I also highly recommend building the trike more like my in-progress "Schwinn conversion" than like SB Cruiser, with all large-diameter wheels and the cargo bed low to the ground suspended hanging from the axles, rather than sitting over the axles of small wheels as SBC does.
BTW, to "lug a 500+ lb load up a 15% hill at 10 mph" on a DD hubmotor system that is setup to go 20-25mph top speed is going to be fairly inefficient and probably overheat the motor much faster than it should. But even just the hill job itself is going to take a lot of power, almost certainly several times what the motor can handle.
I think it will take a lot more than the simulator shows below; the load line goes off the graph and the acceleration is given as negative, so I don't think the simulation worked. I used the TDCM IGH in the example below, because its' basiclaly the same as the ultramotors I'm actually using in SBC, and I used 800lbs as weight for 500lbs cargo plus 300lbs of rider, trike, and anything else that might be onboard.
Motor Simulator - Tools
Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...
ebikes.ca
Using a custom motor with all default parameters except changing kV to 5 still shows negative acceleration and still a power lower than I'd expect (only 2500 motor watt and 2800 battery watt), so still not a working sim.
Using a custom controller with 500A battery 1000A phase and the grinv3 slow wind begins approaching the power I'd expect, about 7500w from the battery. Sim is still broken by the parameters, and the max autothrottle can achieve is 3.4mph, overheating in 20 seconds.
Going full custom, using a 52v 0.001ohm 100Ah battery, and the custom motor and controller previously used, gives a working simulation with expected power levels of 9000 motor watts and almost 15000 battery watts.
I realized that in the last sim the auto checkbox wasn't checked (had to uncheck it to even get a 10mph readout before), so redoing with auto enabled gives 2500 motor watts and 3000 battery watts.
Motor Simulator - Tools
Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...
ebikes.ca
Might take less wasted power, be made more efficient, with a system setup for max power at that 10mph speed, but it is still not likely to be realistic for the leaf to do this kind of load on this kind of slope.
Keepijng the 800lb load and using 2.7kV motor gives a max top speed on those conditions of 10mph, and decreases power to 2500 motor watts and 2700 battery watts.
Dropping the load down to a *total* of 500lbs shifts it down to around 1600 motor watts and 1800 battery watts., using the 5kV motor, etc.
The Toecutter
100 kW
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
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- 1,466
At 72V, the 1500W is more like a 2500+W motor continuous, and often 4000+W for the duration for which a battery can keep delivering power as Cowardly Duck attested earlier in this topic. I will only need enough torque to get up each hill without overheating, in which the motor would get to rest a bit. I bet a Phaserunner on a heatsink could drive this setup. I don't even need to be 10 mph up that hill, even 5 mph will work, but efficiency goes down as speed declines at 72V, but the controller is an FOC type that can mitigate this somewhat.
I understand the weight distribution issue, but I will also have pedaling for the rear wheels + torque sensing, so the motor won't be the only thing making it move. I'd put a knobby tire on the front motor drive wheel for sure. A differential in the back for the pedal power would be nice. Maybe an 18/30/44T triple up front and an 11-34T 7sp in the rear for my pedal gears. 20" wheels in the rear with a big flatbed trailer that is at least 8' X 4' in size, 20" wheel up front. At low speeds, 200W of human power can do a lot to alleviate the strain on a DD hub motor going up a steep hill.
A 22T wind Leaf motor, if they'll make it, may even be better for this application. I'd only top out at 13 mph, which is slower than I would like, but it would get heavy items moved without anything ever overheating.
It would not be simple to fit two 11T wind Leaf hub motors in the rear of a delta trike, but it would handle the load better if I could do it.
I'd need something I could carry a refrigerator, washer/dryer, couch, or other furniture/appliances with. Or maybe building materials. Walking speed or 2-3x walking speed when loaded, 15-20-ish mph when unloaded. It would have a canopy up top lined with cheap solar panels and would not be aerodynamic, and range would be 30-40 miles or so with a 1.8 kWh pack.
Unloaded and ready to ride, this vehicle would be around 150-200 lbs.
Here's how an 11T 1500W Leaf motor would theoretically perform:
Climbing 15% grade at 5 mph, loaded with 400 lbs cargo, Phaserunner running hot, 200W pedaling:
Cruising flat ground at 17 mph unloaded, on a Phaserunner running cool, 100W pedaling:
ebikes.ca
This would work! Most of my hills are under 6%. I might even be able to run a small business out of this thing, maybe mobile car cleaning/detailing, landscaping, pest control, or scrapping, as a one-man operation with minimal overhead costs.
I understand the weight distribution issue, but I will also have pedaling for the rear wheels + torque sensing, so the motor won't be the only thing making it move. I'd put a knobby tire on the front motor drive wheel for sure. A differential in the back for the pedal power would be nice. Maybe an 18/30/44T triple up front and an 11-34T 7sp in the rear for my pedal gears. 20" wheels in the rear with a big flatbed trailer that is at least 8' X 4' in size, 20" wheel up front. At low speeds, 200W of human power can do a lot to alleviate the strain on a DD hub motor going up a steep hill.
A 22T wind Leaf motor, if they'll make it, may even be better for this application. I'd only top out at 13 mph, which is slower than I would like, but it would get heavy items moved without anything ever overheating.
It would not be simple to fit two 11T wind Leaf hub motors in the rear of a delta trike, but it would handle the load better if I could do it.
I'd need something I could carry a refrigerator, washer/dryer, couch, or other furniture/appliances with. Or maybe building materials. Walking speed or 2-3x walking speed when loaded, 15-20-ish mph when unloaded. It would have a canopy up top lined with cheap solar panels and would not be aerodynamic, and range would be 30-40 miles or so with a 1.8 kWh pack.
Unloaded and ready to ride, this vehicle would be around 150-200 lbs.
Here's how an 11T 1500W Leaf motor would theoretically perform:
Climbing 15% grade at 5 mph, loaded with 400 lbs cargo, Phaserunner running hot, 200W pedaling:
Cruising flat ground at 17 mph unloaded, on a Phaserunner running cool, 100W pedaling:
Motor Simulator - Tools
Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...
ebikes.ca
This would work! Most of my hills are under 6%. I might even be able to run a small business out of this thing, maybe mobile car cleaning/detailing, landscaping, pest control, or scrapping, as a one-man operation with minimal overhead costs.
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I don't know enough to know what the FOC could do to mitigate that problem....but if you can actively pull the heat from the PR you can get a couple thosand watts from one until the heat goes up too much. Maybe some temperature-controlled fans that only run when needed, and a high-surface-area heatsink with many many thin fins (like many CPU heatsinks--the best I ever had was a "zalman flower", on the computer destroyed in the housefire 12 years ago.
though that design doesn't have enough mounting surface area for the phaserunner, there probably are designs that do, so that *all* of the PR's heatsink surface is contacting the active heatsink's mounting surface.
Beyond that you'll probably need a bigger controller--ASI, Fardriver, Votol, Kelly, etc. (none of which I would use or recommend, because I think various policies and software they have are very retarded, but there are limited choices for user-customizable FOC controllers).
Well, if you can gear it down for your legs so you can provide enough torque to make a difference, you could put a small proportion of the required power out the rear wheels.
What I would like to do on the new experimental trike, if I can build the parts required, is what the TruckTrike did, which is drive an IGH in the front wheel wheel the pedals, via a chain that goes up to the headtube, passes it with a U-joint, then down the fork to the IGH. (have several IGHs to try, have to build shifters for them though).
For that kind of torque, if you want a true diff I'd recommend a peerless type--the one I have here for the new trike (that will have motor *and* pedal power thru it) is large and heavy, and I doubt it's terribly efficient, but it won't break under the torque required for pedal power.
There are bicycle-freewheel-based diffs but then you're relying on their pawls to handle that torque, and I don't know how long they'll survive it. I've broken Shimano, Dicta, noname, and some other brand I don't recall in singlespeed freewheels that those diffs tend to be made from, just with pedal power, and also with the relatively low power but high torque powerchair brushed motors I used on CrazyBike2.
Unless you're climbing unpaved surfaces, that's probably going to lose you traction, based on my experiences doing this sort of thing. Pavement (sidewalk/concrete/asphalt) in non-crumbled condition is going to work better with a smooth street tread (braking will also work better).
My experiences with knobby or discontinuous-tread tires on drive wheels or braking wheels on pavement surfaces have been disappointing; I used them because I already had them or they came free, but I wouldn't use them by choice after having instead used soft-compound-tread smooth street tires (like CST Sensamo Control I'm using now, or if you can find them the CST General which was even better but was discontinued, and the CST City which has knobby edges (that I didn't like, but the center was smooth).
I wouldn't use hard-compound (longer lifespan) tires, smooth or not, as they tend to skid instead of grip. Some, maybe many, of the dual-compound tires do it the wrong way and put the soft part on the sidewalls, and the hard part on the tread where it causes skids instead of gripping
so I wouldn't use those either.A really slow wind would probably be better for this type of setup.
?? The SB cruiser does that very simply--two hubmotors in 20" wheels (moped tires make them clsoer to 21"+).
The new trike could do that, in 26" wheels, with the deck suspended below the axles between them (but will use a middrive instead, to drive custom single-ended-axle wheels mounted that way). The larger wheels are because small wheels give a terrible ride.
If you want drive from the pedals to both sides, you just use the ends of the diff axle to drive sprockets that then drive the wheels. Since you don't need freewheels on the wheels themselves (you can put those on the diff axle ends) you can use sprotors on the disc mounts of the hubmotors for a mechanically simple wheel installation/removal, with slotted clamping dropouts angled toward the diff axle so you can easily detension those chains for uninstall, and retension during install.
The SB cruiser was around that, before I added the wooden shell, and doubled up the cells in the traction pack to help with sag and capacity, and increased my toolkit for various reasons, etc. I'd guess right now it's closer to 200-250lbs, but I don't have a way to weigh it (broke some cheap scales from goodwill trying to, once, with one under each wheel).
Dunno if you noticed the efficiency, wh/mile, overheat time, temperature, but that looks like a fail to me?
| Efficiency | 33.4% |
| Acceleration | -0.00 mph/s |
| Consumption | 548.6 Wh/mi |
| Range | 3.3 mi |
| Overheat In | 1.3 minutes |
| Final Temp | >250 °C |
It's even worse if you can't sustain the 200w pedalling, like if something in the drivetrain breaks (or you get too tired), but I didn't copy any of those numbers over, just the original results.
Personally, I would recommend making sure for a system like this that each drive system is capable of independently moving the fully-loaded trike over whatever terrain you might be on, in case of a failure of either one (because at some point, it will probably happen, in my experience), since the failure itself is likely to happen *because* of the "extreme" terrain, often plus some other unforeseen condition. Otherwise you could end up "stuck" there, or having to take a long long detour around the terrain area. I can say that either of those really sucks, having been there.
I'm not physically capable of seriously pedalling anything anymore, so whatever I ride has to have two essentially independent motor drive systems, for that reason. In the lowest gear of SB Cruiser, I can pedal it at about 1mph or less, for a couple of minutes, then I have to stop and rest for a good long while. So even to get home on flat terrain from work (about 2.5 miles away) or the local grocery store (maybe another mile), it would take me many hours by pedalling alone. Anything farther than that and I would have to pay someone to pick me and the trike up on a flatbed trailer or truck to take me home.
hillslayer@
100 W
You're dedication to stick with only hub motors is the problem. I found that combined with a mid-drive a hub becomes way more useful for big hills and huge loads.
Chalo
100 TW
Hub motors do that too, but faster and more powerful, cheaper, more reliable, and with much lower maintenance. You just have to feed them more watts. Extra watts are cheaper and easier than all the hassle of keeping up with a mid drive and the replacement parts it lays to waste.
Yes
, but that's just one disadvantage freewheels have. A differential, they are not.1.) In attempt to achieve 2WD, a pair of freewheels is half-assed at best... and a serious liability at worst. Unlike a genuine differential, freewheels, on asphalt, only produces true 2WD when traveling in a perfectly straight line, or on loose surfaces. Even the slightest turn left or right disengages the outside drive wheel - a serious concern when cornering at elevated speeds.
2.) If the rider is annoyed by freewheel's persistent 'clicking'... it's obviously doubled with a pair.
Destroyed! A warning to those using freewheel cranks....
The above is the result of a Dicta 22T BMX Freewheel adapted to a chainring carrier used in a serial-driven freewheel crank setup. Freewheel was in service for only ~600klm (370miles) before seizing. It seized without warning, feet lost contact with the pedals, one pedal spinning over smacked...
endless-sphere.com
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hillslayer@
100 W
The huge loads part is the hill you die on.
Chalo
100 TW
No, you just have to have enough power to hold 50% or so of top speed. Or you have to recognize that steep grades aren't infinitely long and you probably (depending on terrain) won't get to a steady state condition before the road flattens or turns downhill.
None of my hub motors has gotten warmer than maybe a little over body temperature. My BBS02 got hotter than that pretty much every time I used it, despite low gears, short cranks, and diligence about not bogging it down.
ZeroEm
1 MW
This is the stuff I was reading when I first started with ebikes. So I was planning on dual motors because i'm big. One hill by my house I can hardly climb it with out a motor. My single leafmotor zips right up it.
Been gone for 2 years and surprised that this thread is still relevant. Thought they would have a new top dog 35mm motor by now.
yantra yatra
100 W
Would the leaf motor work with a dual suspension carbon frame bike? Looking at a carbon frame stump jumper. Alternately, what about a 3000w BBSHD? I’m thinking mounting a 25ah battery on the bottom of the down tube on the little mounts would risk tearing them out even with supporting straps. And torque arms would risk damaging the rear triangle. Would probably have to mount the battery on the rear off the seat tube with a rack which would affect balance
Specialized S Works Stumpjumper carbon frame
Specialized S Works Stumpjumper carbon frame
I wouldn't expect those frames to handle that much power.
Lotta twisting force in the rear triangle either way, carbon is only strong in certain directions. The bike is non electric, so the directions the carbon is strong in are not gonna be what you expect.
Lotta twisting force in the rear triangle either way, carbon is only strong in certain directions. The bike is non electric, so the directions the carbon is strong in are not gonna be what you expect.
yantra yatra
100 W
Too bad.. nice bike for a good price. Will give it a miss
yantra yatra
100 W
Aside from that though, it should work? I guess if there’s risk it breaks and causes injury that’s a worry, but if it was just longevity it might be worth it
With a carbon frame failure, it's going to be a break, sudden and probably catastrophic, wherever it fails. Generally the nature of carbon failures.
"longevity" just means "how long until it snaps", which is unknowable.
"longevity" just means "how long until it snaps", which is unknowable.
yantra yatra
100 W
Ok sounds like a bad idea. Can’t find any stories of anyone who has tried it
As for
--are the dropouts constructed so that hubmotor hardware and axles will fit there?
--are the dropouts and stays constructed so that two good torque arms can be mounted correctly and securely?
--if a rack is used to mount the battery, can you install it without cantilevering it from a single point? Meaning, give it full support and triangulation to prevent vertical and lateral sway of the end, which will repeatedly stress the single point mount and eventually snap that off either at the rack or the frame itself
then:
--are the dropouts constructed so that hubmotor hardware and axles will fit there?
--are the dropouts and stays constructed so that two good torque arms can be mounted correctly and securely?
--if a rack is used to mount the battery, can you install it without cantilevering it from a single point? Meaning, give it full support and triangulation to prevent vertical and lateral sway of the end, which will repeatedly stress the single point mount and eventually snap that off either at the rack or the frame itself
Have you ever seen a websearch for "busted carbon"? Most of those are just pedal bike failures, not even including the forces a motor system imparts to places the frame wasn't designed to have forces at.
There are discussions of assorted drive systems and carbon frames around the forums, if you want to poke around and see if there are any success stories.
yantra yatra
100 W
hmm… “busted carbon”. I have now.
Are any full sus setups advisable for higher powered hub drive (3-5kw)? I figured it would handle better and be more comfortable with full suspension, but maybe can stick to my hardtail.
Are any full sus setups advisable for higher powered hub drive (3-5kw)? I figured it would handle better and be more comfortable with full suspension, but maybe can stick to my hardtail.
