LIFEPO4 batteries, good, pretty, cheap? XD

[Pablo_1985]

Hi guys, i´m trying to look for a good brand batteries, something with waranty, not grotty... somethign you can buy and just know about the batteries because you have to charge them...i have talked with lots of manufacturers, yuasa, lifebatt...and holy shit i´m looking for 48v 20ah and yuasa tell me 950USD!! and i am not adding shipping...in the other hand i have see conhismotor batteries wich has a total cost (incluiding shipping) about 540USD..!¿!?!¿!?!¿!?!¿? (and rigt now i would prefer not buying them anything more...)

I thougt, "ok, lifebatt said more than 3000 cycles, that is more than 8 years using it everyday?!?!" (conhismotor said more than 1000 cycles, it seems logical they price could be 3 times higher), and i could talk with UK wich is UE that it is perfect for me that i am from Spain, ok i would pay more than conhismotor, furthermore, their batteries look much better than anything else..

Chinesse batteries with tape are pretty cheap, but then you could find smashed cells...and they don´t look like a good job...instead LIFEPO4 are suposed not to explode but when you look at chinesse batteries you really doubt it...

Has nobody get with the perfet battery? this one which really is worth it (my god this sentence sounds like hell...is it ok?), maybe it doesn´t look like the cheapest one but in a long term definitly it is, because it is not like playing lottery and it is problem free...Any advice?

Best regards

PS: sorry for my english maybe that´s the reason why i can´t efficiently use the seach despite i do it very well in Spanish.

 

[dogman dan]

Lifebatts, or headways, or A123's, these are cells with a better c rate. So more money. They can put out more power for the same size cell than less expensive chinese batteries. They are worth the money if you need a high amp battery to match a strong motor and high amp controller.

Most Ebikes use a lower amp motor and controller, such as a 20 amp controller. For those bikes a good battery choice is pingbattery.com. His duct wrapped batteries have good cells in them, and his customer service is good if you have a problem later. His track record for sending a battery with no problems is good. 36v 20 ah and 48v 15 ah are good sizes to buy.

There are other battery vendors with similar looking batteries on Ebay, but pingbattery has our trust. He uses a good cell in his batteries. Others may be a lot cheaper, but with them you pay your money and hope what they send you has no problems. Often it turns out ok, sometimes it does not. Look for pouch type cells, and stay away from batteries made from lots of little round cells spot welded together. Sometimes the spot welds get loose on that type when shippers drop the box.

 

[Pablo_1985]

Hi, i would look for these 48v 15ah pack, because i have a 48v 1000w hub motor... i thing it could be enough, but i only thing ahhaha, i need a battery wich can handle regenerative braking, do you thing that a 48v 15ah from ping battery could be ok for my aplication?

Look at that, is it truth?
http://www.electricrider.com/batteries/eonyx.htm
Ping baterries works for years? as the cycles claim?

Best regards

 

[morph999]

I'm a fan of these Thundersky batteries. In 2 weeks, I'm buying my first lifepo4. Either a 36v20ah Thundersky or the 48v20ah thundersky.

My plan is to buy from this company
3 of these -- $128 /pack = almost $400

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=74

Since it doesn't have a BMS....I bought one of these

http://hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10080

for $25

I'm going to buy 2 of these...to keep the individual cells in balance...probably either balance them once per week or maybe every day if I hook them up in series with anderson connector for quick unplugging
http://www.batteryspace.com/smartcharger60afor32vli-fepo4batterypack1cellalligatorclipplug38vcut-off.aspx

and some anderson connectors from powerwerx

http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/powerpole-sets/45-amp-red-black-anderson-powerpole-sets.html

and some retention clips to make sure the anderson connectors don't come apart
http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/accessories/retention-clips.html

And then I'm going to baby the batteries. Probably only use 70 - 80 % on each use to make sure I never go below the LVC of the cells.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I'm a fan of these Thundersky batteries. In 2 weeks, I'm buying my first lifepo4. Either a 36v20ah Thundersky or the 48v20ah thundersky.

They will probably work out ok but if not good luck.

Emails from the EVDL (mailing list)

--------------------

Yes but it's Thundersky. They have a reputation for being less than
honest with their specs.

Since they don't come with any warranty, what are you going to do if it
turns out they are only good for < 400 cycles ?

Kokam, on the other hand, has a reputation for being striaght shooters and
honest about their product.

Thundersky's specs are meaningless since they don't guarantee them and
wouldn't honor the guarantee if they did.

I'd go with the Kokams

Unknown
--------------------
That is true, but at about a third the cost - it would still be a better bet
to buy two sets of TS cells that radically underperform than one set of
Kokam.

Anyway all this is going to be very dependant on the quality of the BMS
monitoring each cell and the use scenario.
Jon
--------------------
A while back a group of EVDL members arranged a group buy from TS. TS had
a bunch of batteries that didn't pass their crappy QC so they decided to
offload them on the Stupid Americans. They KNEW they were bad cells and
they sold them anyway.

These days folks that are smart go to the factory in China and test the
batteries before buying them. They end up rejecting many of them that
pass Thundersky's QC.

If TS is willing to sell known defective batteries to us, what do you
think they are going to do with ones that pass their "QC" but aren't
purchased by the above buyers?

Even folks who buy LOTs of batteries from TS, have had batteries that
looked good initially but failed within the first year. Internal
corrosion caused by poor quality control during assembly.

Thundersky NEVER replaces defective cells regardless of who buys them or
why they failed. Well, I've heard rumors that they might honor their
warranty for Chinese customers, but never for foreign customers.

If you're comfortable taking that kind of crap shoot with that much money,
knock yourself out.

Unknown
--------------------
Jon Wagner wrote:
> That is true, but at about a third the cost - it would still be a better bet
> to buy two sets of TS cells that radically underperform than one set of
> Kokam.

You can buy 5 sets of thundersky batteries and get another 5 for free.
It's not going to help you - if one set is 100% crap, and you get 5
sets, you still get 100% crap. Just 5 times bigger pile of it.

Of course, people is people. Makes no difference if it's crap as long as
it's cheap. Good luck.

> Anyway all this is going to be very dependant on the quality of the BMS
> monitoring each cell and the use scenario.

A BMS is not meant to fix bad cells in a battery. It is to balance
natural deviations of *good* cells from target one as no two cells
are alike. BMS will take care of balancing 98Ah cell and 101Ah one,
but not 90Ah and 30Ah which in a month may turn into
60Ah and 0Ah. That's what Thunder-sky might supply to you.
But it's sure cheap, so never mind that it's a waste of money.
Again, good luck!

Recent crop of cells is different design than the crap I know about.
TS's business culture, care of customer and mentality is not different,
I don't think they can be trusted. You sort out the cells, throw away
70% of it and put 30 of more-less alike ones in a car, and those
go out of balance in a month, some die from unknown cause, some
develop high internal resistance, some - terminal corrosion, some
bulged cases, forcing you to scrap whole thing. But, who cares,
they are cheap to buy, right?

So for the last time, sincere good luck. You've been warned.

Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--------------------

 

[Pablo_1985]

Thank´s you, i think i allready have an idea of what should i do...by the way:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh ... duct=10080
WOW?! just 25$! ii´m trying to look for something like that in spain, i only want the Wh meter, because i think it would be like a gas meter indicator in car, i mean absolutly necesary.

Regards

 

[dogman dan]

Reply to a few days ago. Pingbattery is not a good choice for regen. The bms is not made for power flowing into it backwards. The cells may be able to handle it, but it would mean running with no bms. Regen is nice, but buy a bigger battery and you don't need it, unless you like it just for braking.

 

[Holz2010]

Reply to a few days ago. Pingbattery is not a good choice for regen. The bms is not made for power flowing into it backwards. The cells may be able to handle it, but it would mean running with no bms. Regen is nice, but buy a bigger battery and you don't need it, unless you like it just for braking.

-----------
I was also planning on using a Ping 48V 30AH battery pack with a regen controller. :| Thanks for the information on the Ping BMS not being able to handle this, but is there any work-around that would allow regen with this battery pack and BMS?

 

[dequinox]

Fortunately for me my build doesn't even carry the possibility of using regen since it is chain drive...so I don't have to feel bad about buying a ping battery. :wink:

I want to use ping in conjunction with my SLA pack, with ideal diodes to protect the BMS and LiFePO4 cells. Hopefully the SLA pack takes some of the brunt of the C rate while the ping pack's life will be extended some since it won't be alone in providing the current for high-draw situations (hills, gleeful bursts of throttle twisting, etc.)

QUESTION:

Does anyone have a link to a thread about the comparison of cost/benefit for LiPoly vs LiFePO4? The LiFePO4 is straightforward as far as what I need to order goes...a pack and a charger from ping. It sounds like Lipos really pack a punch but I need a little help knowing exactly what to put on my shopping list to put together a ~24v pack on hobbyking. Charger, BMS, balancer, cells etc. What do I need?

 

[dogman dan]

Lipoly is getting cheaper than current lifepo4 prices for sure. Cheaper for high c rate cells FOR SURE! But to my knowledge, nobody in the lipoly market is selling packs and chargers tailored for bikes. So you have to rig up series connections and stuff. If you want a good amp supply in a very small size pack it's totally the way to go.

I'd love to see the lipoly pack sellers include ebikes, and sell 36,48, 60, and 72v 5 ah packs with charger. Then you could just paralell them for long rides, or just use them one after the other. The new stuff isn't so unsafe as they were at one time. 72v 5 ah packs would be sweet for quick blasts on a dirt bike at a track. Stop for a quick charge while the motor cools, and repeat as needed.

For many of us, it's just too easy to just buy a pingbattery and ride along happily for years. The up front cost is high, but used right, (1 c or thereabouts) the ping will last so long you forget about what it cost. Call it free riding after the first year. This approach is better when you need a big pack for the range anyway. Good for a long distance commuter or touring.

One way around the regen issue would be a diode protected paralell connection to an sla pack. Let the sla's get beat up by the regen current, while the ping just discharges slowly. It won't be that much energy you get back anyway, it's just the problem of pings bms not liking a surge the reverse direction.

Actually, the new bms he's using now may be able to do it, Somebody should ask ping about it. The old bms I have doesn't like reverse current. But I really don't know about the new one.

 

[dequinox]

Yes matching voltage was sounding like a challenge with lipoly. I have a 24v system...but could probably upgrade to 36. Its hard to match the voltages with our nominal systems that go up by 12. Do you know if controllers can handle slightly higher or lower potential and still operate without frying? I have a brushed setup...not brush-less.

 

[Pablo_1985]

Actually, the new bms he's using now may be able to do it, Somebody should ask ping about it.

I will and i´m telling you what they say

 

[Pablo_1985]

by the way look at this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lifepo4-Battery-Pack-48v15ah-for-e-bike-and-e-scooters_W0QQitemZ190349148416QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c51b18100

What do you thing?

 

[ecowheelz]

Li-Poly for e-bikes??? Ran across this 37V pack couple weeks ago:

http://www.batteryspace.com/customizehighpowerpolymerli-ionbattery37v10ah370wh40adrainrate.aspx

or 52V

http://www.batteryspace.com/highpowerpolymerli-ionbattery518v10ah518wh40adrainrate.aspx

I think these should work... but they're pricey. Don't have any experience with this company, but it looks like there's a few Li-Poly options out there for e-bikes...

 

[Pablo_1985]

Pingbattery has responded about his battery packs and how to use them with regenerative controller

Hi Pablo,

Glad to receive your email.

The newest version is v2.5. Our v2.5 BMS cannot accept regen system directly. But you can use it with regen system by adding a diode in the circuit. Attach a diagram for your reference.

Our v2.5 48v20ah pack will work well with a 1000w motor.

Any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

Ping

 

[dogman dan]

That's pretty much the same as the early bms. The diode blocks the regen current from frying the bms, and also blocks it from charging the battery.

Regen for more range is a joke anyway, but the diode would make regen for braking purposes work without cooking off the bms of a pingbattery. Thanks for the info, I wasn't positive about the new model bms.

As for that link to an ebay battery. Good deal for a pack of A123 cells. I just don't see where he actually says there are A123's in that particular pack. Not calling him a crook, but he needs to clearly state that that pack contains 100% a123's for me to be satisfied. Worth a try if it's not your last dollar. The same vendor does seem to sell A123 cells though.

 

[Holz2010]

Actually, the new bms he's using now may be able to do it, Somebody should ask ping about it. The old bms I have doesn't like reverse current. But I really don't know about the new one.

Some additional information from Ping: The V3 packs use the same BMS as the V2.5; it's just the packs have different cells. As Pablo indicated, for regen with the BMS, a 100A diode is needed. But also the regen current may need to be set on your Controller. Ping only provided me information for his 30 AH pack, but said that it is a "high rate" pack and can take 10A maximum for regen.

 

[Pablo_1985]

As for that link to an ebay battery. Good deal for a pack of A123 cells. I just don't see where he actually says there are A123's in that particular pack. Not calling him a crook, but he needs to clearly state that that pack contains 100% a123's for me to be satisfied. Worth a try if it's not your last dollar. The same vendor does seem to sell A123 cells though.

ME
Hello from spain, i am Pablo and i have a few questions about your packs...

Are they 100% made with a123 cells?how is the warranty for your charger, battery pack and bms?

Best regards

OHMYGOD
Hi Pablo,

Do you mean our 2s,3s,4s,5s,6s battery pack for models?These are made from A 123 cells

But the 24v,36v,48v battery pack are with other Lifepo4 26650 cell,not A123

The warranty is one year for all the spareparts

EDIT: i have ask for a a123 battery pack, so let´s see what he says

Best regards,
Ray

 

[dogman dan]

Comparing prices for his store for a large number of A123's, and the packs, I began to suspect that there was not A123's in the big packs. Nice of him to still show the pic of an A123 battery in the ad though, and make you think you are getting a cheap A123 pack.

 

[Pablo_1985]

WOW!

Hi pablo,

The cost for the 48v18.4ah(not 10ah,because each is 2300mah,we plan to 8 parallel)
with BMS and 5A charger is US$830,shipping is US$130,so total is US$960
If this is ok,let me know
Thanks
RaY

Remember that yesa which already use a123 cells told me this:

PP48203R40X 48V 20Ah
LiFePO4 Battery Pack

BMS: All-in-one with usb and inspection software
Max. Constant Current: 40A
Peak Current: 45A

Charger: Charge Current: 3A 1
965.00 USD

Obviously yesa is bigger, more waranty, more everything, why should we buy something to ohmygod?

By the way, maybe you could help in another thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14741

Regards

 

[mrbill]

Actually, the new bms he's using now may be able to do it, Somebody should ask ping about it. The old bms I have doesn't like reverse current. But I really don't know about the new one.

I emailed Ping about his packs about a month ago, and he confirmed that his current packs' BMS can't handle charge and discharge through the same circuit. But, sometime early next year--he told me Feb/2010--he will offer a new BMS that does charge/discharge through the same circuit and can be used for regen.