Lipo help please! Argh!

E

Eujangles

100 W
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
124
Location
Vancouver BC
So as a complete newbie to lipo, I took the plunge and ordered a 10s pack from hobby king:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21388__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_10S_25C_Long_Lipo_Pack.html

and this charger:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__6609__iCharger_1010B_300W_10s_Balance_Charger.html

When I tried to plug the balance leads into the balance port, I got a massive spark and melted a pin. Why in god's name would they have 2 5s ports on the board if I can't use them at the same time!? Have I fried my battery? The battery medic seems to show all voltages as normal.

Also, I am not able to charge at all...I can plug just 1 set of balance leads in and the charger detects the 5s cells, but says the voltage is low...an error I looked up which says that the pack is not the same count as what I instructed the charger, and now it won't let me tell the charger to just charge 5s. My head is going to explode right along with the lipo pack.

Can anyone please help out a frustrated noob with some advice?
 
First off, chill. This is why we have ES : )

First off, you need to figure out which of the 2 balance leads is the lower set. And which is the higher set. Best why to test this is get a Voltmeter and plug the black probe it into the black leads of one of the balance leads. Then plug the red probe into the black leads of the other balance leads. If it shows positive 18.6V or something like that, then the first 5s leads is the lower set and the 2nd is the higher set. If it shows negative, then first set is the higher set and the 2nd is the lower set.

If you look at your balance board on the i-charger, you will a negative and positive label. Plug the lower 5s balance leads into the slot closest to negative label. Plug the upper 5s balance leads into the slot closest to the positive label.

However after reading you state about how there is a massive spark, it is possible you melted the balance connector and the i-charger no longer see the connection. I would try the above. It it doesn't work, you will need to figure out which balance leads you fried and try to repair it. But be careful! You are dealing with lipo!

Best of luck. If I have time I will upload some pictures to show you. Maybe IceCube has some nice video on how this works.
 
I have a similar charger. I think that you can just charge the pack in Lipo charge mode and it will charge the pack as a whole, no need to hook up the balance wires.
The charger says lipo charge as oppose to lipo balance charge and then you select the number of cells, I think you have 10 series.

I personaly never balance my packs. I just hook up the red main lead to the charger and the black main lead to the charger and select mode " lipo fast charge" or" Lipo charge" ( as oppose to lipo balance charge). Then you can charge just like that without having to worry about the balance leads. Later when you figure out the balance leads you can balance the pack, but no need to worry, just get out and ride. You should read about lipo here on es and the RC firums. There is a learning curve and you learn by reading here and trial and error as well.
 
Eujangles said:
So as a complete newbie to lipo, I took the plunge and ordered a 10s pack from hobby king:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21388__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_10S_25C_Long_Lipo_Pack.html
Click to expand...
Hopefully you know where you screwed up with the charger now, so I'd just like to know who recommended buying the 10s compact pack? I ask this because you are paying $.60 per Wh by buying it, when you could have just bought a couple of 5ah 5s packs, taped them together, for $.39 per Wh. And when you screw one of them up, you're only out $36 instead of $128. Or you could have bought 4 3ah 5s packs for 6ah for $.36 per Wh, and only been out $19.90 when you screw one of them up.
 
Yeah, unfortunately you didn't read enough to know the 10s plunge was not recomended by many of us here.

If the fried pin is on the charger, you will have to replace that part to balance charge that pack in 10s mode. Fortunately there is a work around. The charger should work fine as a non balancing 10s charger. And work as a 1s non balancing charger.

If you must, you can balance a pack by using the right sockets on the balance plugs on the pack. Select the low cell, and connect two bare just male pins with a wire on each to the right sockets. Connect the other end to the main charge leads of the charger, select 1s, and charge away one cell at a time.

Another alternative would be to break the pack in to two 5s packs, adding the discharge leads needed to each piece. Then you can balance them as 5s packs if that plug is still ok on the charger.
 
BikeFanatic said:
I have a similar charger. I think that you can just charge the pack in Lipo charge mode and it will charge the pack as a whole, no need to hook up the balance wires.
The charger says lipo charge as oppose to lipo balance charge and then you select the number of cells, I think you have 10 series.

I personaly never balance my packs. I just hook up the red main lead to the charger and the black main lead to the charger and select mode " lipo fast charge" or" Lipo charge" ( as oppose to lipo balance charge). Then you can charge just like that without having to worry about the balance leads. Later when you figure out the balance leads you can balance the pack, but no need to worry, just get out and ride. You should read about lipo here on es and the RC firums. There is a learning curve and you learn by reading here and trial and error as well.
Click to expand...

I am sorry, but this is really bad advice to a Lipo noob. The 10S 5.8Ah pack give a LOT of current when shorted, and I have melted several plugs doing so. Balancing the individual cells is in my opinion a MUST when working with such high capacity packs, even though it may be "just" 37V or 42V.

When inverting the two balance connectors, usually either the receiving connectors melt, or the lipo-connectors melt, or both. Either way, the resulting connectors may not be optimal and probably have a much higher resistance than before, preventing proper balancing. It would be advisable to get some 5S JST plugs and replace the damaged plugs. Hobbyking sells them 5S extension cables, so that you only have to solder the correct cables, and not worry about the actual connectors.

I am one of those people using 10S packs, and I do not regret it. I agree with all of the negative comments around them (higher costs, more hassle when replacing duds, etc), but the limited wiring outbalances all of that for me. A 1kWh pack that consists of only 6 bricks is really nice to handle, and if I had chosen the 5.8Ah packs, I could have done with 4, but then the Lipo's wouldn't have fit my frame anymore. It is all about balancing (pun intended)...
 
am sorry, but this is really bad advice to a Lipo noob. The 10S 5.8Ah pack give a LOT of current when shorted, and I have melted several plugs doing so. Balancing the individual cells is in my opinion a MUST when working with such high capacity packs, even though it may be "just" 37V or 42V.
Click to expand...

I understand your point. You are saying that the Lipo user must know the individiual cell voltages, not just the pack voltage
for a proper assessment of the pack charge status and health. could have one cell at 2.5 and another at 3.6--
I agree - but that can be done eventually, when the poster learns enough to fix the wires. Maybe that is too careless attitude
for a newbe...I felt like he or she can fix it eventually, maybe I should have said fix very soon.

I feel anxious when I have a pack that I dont know the individal cell voltages- like when I loose a balance wire.
and I do not use that pack. Still i think he can get away with using it as I said, but I can add that LIPO IS
DANGEROUS AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED. NOW GET OUT THERE AND read ABOUT LIPO ON ENDLESS SPHERE,
so you can enjoy the wonderful world of lipo and ebikes, safely.
 
BikeFanatic said:
I understand your point. You are saying that the Lipo user must know the individiual cell voltages, not just the pack voltage
for a proper assessment of the pack charge status and health. could have one cell at 2.5 and another at 3.6--
I agree - but that can be done eventually, when the poster learns enough to fix the wires. Maybe that is too careless attitude
for a newbe...I felt like he or she can fix it eventually, maybe I should have said fix very soon.
Click to expand...

Well, almost. I think that the poster should learn the theory of balancing a 10S pack BEFORE plugging it in. With a 10S 5.8Ah you should not do things by trial and error, because when things go wrong, you can really hurt yourself or others. If you want to be careless around Lipo, stick to 1S 320mAh batteries that are used for mini RC helicopters.

For the record, it is not uncommon to have a dud in a 10S pack. That means that the voltage of that pack is 0.00V. If you would "bulk" charge the 10S pack up to 42V, you would overcharge all 9 "working" lipos up to 4.66V. They may even survive that. Then after 5 cycles of overcharging, one of those 9 also breaks down. Continuing to charge the whole pack up to 42V means 5.25V per cell. See where this is going?
 
Thanks so much everyone for the replies! Once again...ES to the rescue!

@mvly
Thanks for the explanation, and the advice! Frustrating day for me yesterday (aside from the battery issues), and I was definitely in a state when I wrote my post :oops: . Yes, I have most certainly melted the pins on my balance board, so I guess I'll need to order another one...hopefully gets here soon as summer is ticking away! The sockets on the battery seem fine though (lucky!) as my battery medic had no trouble connecting and showing individual cell voltages. I will follow your directions precisely when my new board arrives. Thanks again!

@Trackman417
Thanks for the link, glad to know I'm not the only one who did this :)

@BikeFanatic
Thanks for the advice, and I have read others replies to your comments. I appreciate that you seemed to know exactly how I felt in that I just wanna get out there and ride! I will still wait for the balance board, but in the meantime it's nice to know that I have options.

@wesnewell
Nobody specifically recommended it, but I did read a thread where ES members seemed excited that higher voltage packs were now available. I decided on the 10s despite the higher cost, as it was my first foray into lipo, I wanted to keep it simple and just work with 1 pack before trying to assemble my own with a wiring harness or anything like that.

@dogman
That seems to be the case :( I think I will wait it out on the new balance board (I've done enough damage mucking around on my own already!)

@hjns
Thanks for weighing in. I will order the 5s JST plugs when I order the balance board, just in case I have trouble balancing (even when I do it right). Also, in my defense, I didn't go in to this blind or carelessly: I've done lots of research on lipo (here and on the wiki), specifically concerned with the safety margins, and I never read anything about having to plug the balance leads into the board in a specific order (though maybe the 10s packs were not common at the time I was reading up, so the information was not readily available). I also thoroughly read the manual for my charger before even turning it on, and nowhere was I warned about my mistake either. You'd think on a charger specifically designed to charge up to 10s, this is something they would include.


One last question for any and every one...I seem to remember that the battery medic has a balance feature on it. In the short term, if I were to balance the cells prior to, and post, charging, would that be acceptably safe while I wait for my new balance board?

Thanks again everyone, as always, I really appreciate the help that the members of this forum provide. One of these days, I'll know enough to dole out some helpful advice of my own to some struggling newbie :)
 
Well...it seems like my problems have gotten worse: hobby king does not have a 10s balance board...looks like I may have to order a whole new charger to get it.
 
Eujangles said:
hopefully gets here soon as summer is ticking away!
Click to expand...


Why not just put the ICharger on "Charge" or "Fast charge" mode and charge them? You don't need to connect your balancing wires to do so. You might want to set the iCharger Lipo to 4.1v so that one cell doesn't go over 4.2. I believe you said "my battery medic had no trouble connecting and showing individual cell voltages" So just check the voltages and make sure one cell isn't getting over charged.

Eventually I'm sure you'll need to balance them but I don't think you need to stress it for awhile.. You can order a balancing board when they get some in.
 
Eujangles said:
Well...it seems like my problems have gotten worse: hobby king does not have a 10s balance board...looks like I may have to order a whole new charger to get it.
Click to expand...

Consider the following:
  • Get some of these 5S extension cables from HK
  • Take the 10S balance connector from the board
  • Connect two of the 5S cables to the 10S connector

So let's take a look at the two 5S connectors that are on the battery side. Get your voltmeter out and start measuring:
  • Find a black wire that is located at one side of a 5S connector.
  • Check voltage with the red wire at the opposite side of that same connector; should be around 18.5V (37/2), aka 5S.
  • Now check the voltage between the black wire on connector no 1, and the red wire on connector no 2.
  • If that voltage is around 37V then you have found the winning combination. It means that the black wire is connected to cell no1, and the red wire is connected to cell no10.
  • if the voltage is 0 (zero), then the black wire is the ground of cell no 6, and the red wire is the positive of cell no 5.
  • mark the wires with the cell no.
  • Connect the ground wire of cell no 1 to the ground of the 10S connector
  • Connect the ground wire of cell no 2 (which is the positive of cell no 1) to the next wire of the 10S connector
  • Continue until cell no 5
  • Connect both the positive red of cell no 5 and the ground of cell no 6 to each other and to the 6th position of the 10S connector
  • Connect the rest of the wires.

In effect, you have replicated the balance board.
 
.I seem to remember that the battery medic has a balance feature on it. In the short term, if I were to balance the cells prior to, and post, charging, would that be acceptably safe while I wait for my new balance board?
Click to expand...

Use the battery medic to check your cell voltage. If they are all close you are fine. charge up your battery using lipo charge mode or lipo fast charge mode, where you do not have to hook up the balance wires. Charge that pack and go for Damn ride. don't over discharge it, 6-10miles max and check voltages with the battery medic at 5miles. If you see 3.69 volts per cell you are very close to the end of your pack. ( empty= aproximately 3.65 volts per cell. )

Your balance taps on the battery are fine if the battery medic can read the cells. you can balance with the battery medic.
HJNS is very conservative. I too am conservative but not hyterical/alarmist about Lipo.
 
Eujangles said:
@wesnewell
Nobody specifically recommended it, but I did read a thread where ES members seemed excited that higher voltage packs were now available. I decided on the 10s despite the higher cost, as it was my first foray into lipo, I wanted to keep it simple and just work with 1 pack before trying to assemble my own with a wiring harness or anything like that.
Click to expand...
Your 10s Pack has a positive and a negative main wire. With 2 5s packs, you plug the positive from one pack into the negative of the other pack and you have the same 10s pack that you bought. Yeah, it take at least 5 seconds to do that.
 
Eujangles said:
Well...it seems like my problems have gotten worse: hobby king does not have a 10s balance board...looks like I may have to order a whole new charger to get it.
Click to expand...
Uh, did the board break or burn up? You do relaize you can replace any connector on the board with a new one. There's no need for a new board.
 
There is a very easy solution to this problem, buy a paraboard from epbuddy

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=215

Then charge your 10s pack, which is really just two 5S packs, as 5S in parallel. This will also balance them too.

I'm sure you can buy the icharger balance boards separately too, but I can't remember where off the top of my head.

Edit: http://www.electricwingman.com/product.aspx?product=1947

Kudos
 
kudos said:
Then charge your 10s pack, which is really just two 5S packs, as 5S in parallel. This will also balance them too.
Click to expand...

I am not sure I understand. If you mean to parallel the two 5S plugs, you will create some nice sparks at 18V, unless you actually disconnect cells 5 and 6 from each other. Just plugging-in the 5S plugs in parallel will create a nice short because the ground of cell 1 will be connected to the positive of cell 5 (which is the ground of cell 6 with which you are parallelling). As mentioned, that gives a nice 18.5V spark and some more melted connectors.

If you do it, make sure to put it on video... :twisted:
 
Henk,

You were the man who taught me how to handle 10S packs and I will be for ever in your debt.

Once again thank you.

What I mean by using a paraboard is simply using the 10S pack as the two 5S pack that it is.

When using a nanotech 10s you have four main power leads and two 5s balance leads.

I now know that other 10S packs like zippy are not configured this way.

Not sure what OP is using! But I must admit I presumed it was Nanotech style ie two 5S with two 5S balance leads.

Kudos
 
@RyanTO @BikeFanatic
Awesome, that's exactly what I've done, and thanks to the battery medic I can safely charge and balance until I replace the board or connectors. Thanks guys.

@HJNS
Thanks for the breakdown of how to do that!I think with my temporary solution with the battery medic, I'm good to go for now, and as wesnewell advised, I can probably just replace the connectors as opposed to the whole board.

@kudos
Thank you! Yes, my pack has 2 x 5s balance leads. Thanks for the advice, I will try to find either the connector or the board from somewhere other than hobbyking

@wesnewell
Look, I appreciate that you've taken the time to reply to my post and am grateful that you have explained that I don't need to replace my whole balance board, but you don't need to try to make me feel stupid about it :? . Done is done, I've made my purchase and I'm just gonna go ahead and live with it. In the future, I will absolutely take your advice and deal with 5s packs, thank you for letting me know it's that easy.
 
No problems here. I figured it out.

IF your 10S pack has indeed 4 (four) power leads, aka one black and one red for each 5S pack, it actually means you do NOT have cell one and 6 in series anymore when disconnecting the power leads as well, allowing for parallel charging. My zippy packs have only 2 power leads, which means you can NOT charge the 2x 5S in parallel.


kudos said:
Henk,

You were the man who taught me how to handle 10S packs and I will be for ever in your debt.

Once again thank you.

What I mean by using a paraboard is simply using the 10S pack as the two 5S pack that it is.

When using a nanotech 10s you have four main power leads and two 5s balance leads.

I now know that other 10S packs like zippy are not configured this way.

Not sure what OP is using! But I must admit I presumed it was Nanotech style ie two 5S with two 5S balance leads.

Kudos
Click to expand...
 
Hi Rollodo,

So I'm currently just bulk charging the pack, and tried for the first time last night to use the battery medic to balance. I left it "balancing" on the medic for over an hour and no change in the voltages of the individual cells. Either the balance function on the medic is bunk, or as someone else here suggested I have damaged a socket on the balance leads and the extra resistance is causing the medic to struggle to balance (more likely I think).

I am going to order the balance board from the link kudos kindly posted and see if I am able to balance once it arrives...if not I will have to crimp on new balance leads, I guess (a new adventure every day with this project :) ).
 
Fairly easy and cheap to replace a balance plug. Source a Jst extension in the right s number from wherever you can get it quickest.
 
Thanks dogman, yeah I think they should be pretty straightforward to find...crimping them on is going to be the tricky part for me :oops: .

Btw, thanks for the advice about the voltmeter on eBay in my previous thread...wired it as you suggested, split from the controller and it works and looks great!
 
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