Lycra!

[DahonElectric]

Hi Dee Jay,

Sometimes, what Lycras do come with some sort of explanation. Like another poster awhile back mentioned that Lycras don't stop for pedestrians and other cyclists and that they are relatively bad in doing so.
This I agree to a certain degree, but I do like to point out the cause for this. The cause for Lycras not stopping or not slowing down is probably due mostly to the bikes they ride and the marketing ploy by bike makers. Many newer bikes these days are designed exclusively for performance, rather than comfort. You can even see the recent mountain bike designs -- short chainstays and sloping top tube (sometimes long) and no braze-ons for racks. These bikes can be easily marketed to the public because they are what those professionals riding on the World Cup circuit or the Tour De France or even in the Ironman Triathlon events. These Lycra people gravitate to these bikes, for performance and for a level of achievement they see that they can be bought with very little training. I used to work for a local bike store years ago and while I tried to do the right thing, steer people to the right bikes for their intended purpose, eventually you are pressured to sell expensive high performance bikes because they return a good margin for the store as well as yourself. And most Lycra people go for performance bikes anyways. I see no problems if these people understand that these bikes like open road or open country circuit like a German Sheperd does with an open field. You can't really keep a big dog like that couped up in a small condominum either. But you know with people, they want a do it all bike that looks fast, looks good and be able to go fast too and be comfortable. This ain't going to happen. There's a rule with a bike. If you want performance, you need to sacrifice some comfort. If you want comfort, you need to sacrifice some performance, though this doesn't hold true with an eBike because of the power of the motor assistance. Which means, the only way to ride comfortably on a Trek Madone or a Cervelo P3SL is on your mid chain ring or better yet, big 52teeth chain ring at a 90-100rpm cadence (which can yield some impressive speeds like 35 to 40km/h on a straight away) but also provides maximum leverage to hold your body in place. Otherwise, you're going to end up suffering neck pain, wrist pain, shoulder and back pain when you're riding like a weekender seawall putter. A friend of mine who used to work in the bike shop basically cringed when one of his clients asked me to put a riser bar on an expensive Titanium Seven Axiom (That's a nice bike). So high, that it looks stupid. But his reason was, I have to match that with my Mercedes Benz!

Sometimes, Lycras do themselves a lot of injustice. Buying the wrong bike and then selling them later on for the wrong reasons. There are all kinds of people on the road and I'm used to dealing with most of them. Don't worry about them cause many of them won't last long for a number of riding seasons. Here, I've seen many of them come and go.

Enjoy your ride!!

Take care..

 

[julesa]

And to realize the full extent of drafting, your front wheel and his rear wheel must be within less than 1/2 inch apart!

Well, it's true that the closer you are, the more drafting helps, but 1/2 inch is too close even for experienced group riders in my opinion. Experienced riders do sometimes come up within six inches or so, but should not be as close as 1/2 inch -- it's not safe. Inexperienced drafters get plenty of benefit from being two or three feet behind their pacer. I was in a non-drafting race earlier this year. Following closer than five meters was prohibited by the race rules unless passing -- there's a detectable benefit even more than a whole bike length behind another rider.

Unfortunately, untrained racer wannabes look at someone's butt, so as soon as the front rider brakes hard and with the small gap between your front tire and his rear wheel, guess what you're gonna do next. You'll gonna clip and destroy his rear wheel.

A pacer who knows someone is drafting him/her should NEVER brake hard without giving a loud verbal warning, "slowing!" or "stopping!" Of course, drafters should be watching the road ahead so they can anticipate when their pacer is going to need to hit the brakes.

 

[vanilla ice]

Their parents couldn't possibly have taught these toddlers to compete . . . it is in their genes.

I'm with you on everything else, but I dunno about this part.. its one thing to try tell a kid a lesson, but theres lessons going on by observation too. The behavioral examples of the parents and older siblings are more powerful than anything they can say. Oh and just a couple days back I had a worse experience at a playground. This mother was pushing OTHER kids away from her kid scolding them, sayin "he was playing with it first!" I was just like, whatever my kids can handle this lady. But one of the other mothers told her off and she got upset and took off.. good times at the playground!

 

[Dee Jay]

Their parents couldn't possibly have taught these toddlers to compete . . . it is in their genes.

I'm with you on everything else, but I dunno about this part.. its one thing to try tell a kid a lesson, but theres lessons going on by observation too. The behavioral examples of the parents and older siblings are more powerful than anything they can say. Oh and just a couple days back I had a worse experience at a playground. This mother was pushing OTHER kids away from her kid scolding them, sayin "he was playing with it first!" I was just like, whatever my kids can handle this lady. But one of the other mothers told her off and she got upset and took off.. good times at the playground!

vanilla ice: You're right, toddlers learn from just their parents and siblings behavior, but for the most part, at such an early age of 1 to 3, you'll see your child's true nature. I carefully observed my son during the very first times he interacted with other children at the playground. At 2 years old, he was already very social with other kids and shared his ball. But then, one time, older kids left him out of the game with his ball, so I had to step in and asked for the ball back for him. Immediately after that first incident, for the rest of the time in that playground, he learned that sometimes he needs to be protective. When the ball got too close to the older kids, he ran and picked it up then ran the other direction. 2 years old... I was so proud of him for adapting to the situation. My wife and I never taught him that kind of behavior. That's his true nature, while other kids would let it happen again and again.

As for that mother at the playground, there are over-protective parents and there are bully parents. I try not to be either one but at this early age your child need you to be there for him to feel secure because you are their only real friend at the moment. As they grow older, they'll understand that there are many others that they can rely on such as friends and colleagues but you are the first to influence their primal sense of security, and with that, they'll sleep well at night. Family support is like being in gang. Especially in Japan where safety in numbers is more important than freedom and individuality, virtues that are encouraged in the USA. Safety in numbers has always been the asian way of life.

In Japan, if you're not in some kind of group or gang, you'd better join one or grow one in your family, because bullying in Japan is such a big issue. The problem is, many parents aren't morally supporting their children that are bullied at school. Kids end up dropping out of school or commit suicide. If I'm not mistaken, the logic in Japanese suicide is that, if you can turn the knife (or sword) to yourself then you are considered stronger than your enemy who can't do the same. In my best Steve Buschemi impersonation, I say... "BULLSH!T, MAN!"

In the USA, when you're bullied, you don't end your life, you end your enemy's. If you don't, you'll likely end up lashing out at society somehow.

And this brings us back full circle. What's worse than a bully in Japan? A Lycra Bully in Japan, with their "better and faster than you" attitude. That Lycra Brat was terribly "dishonored" because I had the audacity to pass him, how dare me. . .

Heh, theres asses anywhere you go. BTW just for future reference, how does one say that in japanese?

"Doko ni mo baka mo no wa iru"

literally translated...

"Anywhere you go, stupidity will also be there"

Extreme competitiveness breeds hate.

J


EDIT: *My son was actually about 1 and a half years old.

 

[Patriot]

OP,

There's a jerk in every crowd.

I'm a so-called "Lycra" dude.

I plan on wearing lycra when I ride my Ebike to work. Yeah, full dress, as I always do.

Why? Because I'm a serious cyclist. The way I ride a bike requires it, unless I want to end up grinding off my own genitalia. I'm sure plenty of people on here wear lycra too.

Matter of fact, I am primarily a road cyclist, who yes, is out for performance. I don't just ride my bike to work, or to the local store. I ride my super expensive, super wham-O-dyne, carbon fiber racing bike for pure excitement, enjoying the outdoors, and some very serious and challenging excersise.

I've been riding for years now, and find myself to be one of the people who wonders why there seems to be so much contempt among each other in the cycling community. Not just from E-bikers, but from so many other riders as well. MTB'ers, roadies, bents, tourers, commuters, even the vintage guys. And good heavens, let's not get started on the eternally evil "cagers". Heaven forbid, "I own a Chevy Suburban". Oooo hush, hush... That Patriot guy must be some evil incarnate or something.

You know, not all people who ride road bikes, and wear lycra are a problem. The overwhelming majority of people I ride with are even more curteous, and more careful than most any other biker I've run into. From the years of cycling I have under my belt, about the only group of cyclists I think really are a problem, is the Critical Mass riders. Not because of what they ride, but because of the way they purposely break the law and inhibit everyone elses free travel. Only because they just want to prove a point. Well, sorry to say this, but the rich guy in the H2, has just as much right to get where he's going as we do. And we have no right, legal or ethical, to stop him. If he is dumb enough to waste gas on that overpriced POS, that's his problem, not mine. Should we encourage him to try alternate methods? Sure, but not by forcing him, or treating him badly. That dude wasting our resources needs to be given the option, shown the benefit, then let him make his own God given right to freely choose for himself.

This whole thing about people in lycra being a problem is UTTER NONSENSE. It's a horrible stereo-type. It's just as pathetic as someone who starts a rant about E-bikers being fat and lazy cyclists, because they don't want to work hard at riding. E-bikers should be out there pounding the pavement, instead of being so lazy. Good heavens, how could someone be so utterly apathetic as not to be willing to pedal a little harder, they have to depend on some gizmo to get them around, because they are afraid of breaknig a sweat.

That whole argument is also... UTTER NONSENSE!!!!

What everyone on here needs to remind themselves of, is that not everyone is going to be just like you.

Yeah, I'm a new guy on this forum, but an old cyclist. I'm a guy who thinks E-bikes are a great way to get around. I'm a guy who enjoys bikes, regardless of what someone says I should be wearing while riding it, or not. And as for for lycra's out there being discurteous, there's a jerk in every crowd, I'm sure there's plenty in the E-bike community as well.

Ok, rant over.....

for now.

 

[Zoot Katz]

OP,

There's a jerk in every crowd.

I'm a so-called "Lycra" dude.

I plan on wearing lycra when I ride my Ebike to work. Yeah, full dress, as I always do.

Why? Because I'm a serious cyclist. The way I ride a bike requires it, unless I want to end up grinding off my own genitalia. I'm sure plenty of people on here wear lycra too.

Matter of fact, I am primarily a road cyclist, who yes, is out for performance. I don't just ride my bike to work, or to the local store. I ride my super expensive, super wham-O-dyne, carbon fiber racing bike for pure excitement, enjoying the outdoors, and some very serious and challenging excersise.

I've been riding for years now, and find myself to be one of the people who wonders why there seems to be so much contempt among each other in the cycling community. Not just from E-bikers, but from so many other riders as well. MTB'ers, roadies, bents, tourers, commuters, even the vintage guys. And good heavens, let's not get started on the eternally evil "cagers". Heaven forbid, "I own a Chevy Suburban". Oooo hush, hush... That Patriot guy must be some evil incarnate or something.

You know, not all people who ride road bikes, and wear lycra are a problem. The overwhelming majority of people I ride with are even more curteous, and more careful than most any other biker I've run into. From the years of cycling I have under my belt, about the only group of cyclists I think really are a problem, is the Critical Mass riders. Not because of what they ride, but because of the way they purposely break the law and inhibit everyone elses free travel. Only because they just want to prove a point. Well, sorry to say this, but the rich guy in the H2, has just as much right to get where he's going as we do. And we have no right, legal or ethical, to stop him. If he is dumb enough to waste gas on that overpriced POS, that's his problem, not mine. Should we encourage him to try alternate methods? Sure, but not by forcing him, or treating him badly. That dude wasting our resources needs to be given the option, shown the benefit, then let him make his own God given right to freely choose for himself.

This whole thing about people in lycra being a problem is UTTER NONSENSE. It's a horrible stereo-type. It's just as pathetic as someone who starts a rant about E-bikers being fat and lazy cyclists, because they don't want to work hard at riding. E-bikers should be out there pounding the pavement, instead of being so lazy. Good heavens, how could someone be so utterly apathetic as not to be willing to pedal a little harder, they have to depend on some gizmo to get them around, because they are afraid of breaknig a sweat.

That whole argument is also... UTTER NONSENSE!!!!

What everyone on here needs to remind themselves of, is that not everyone is going to be just like you.

Yeah, I'm a new guy on this forum, but an old cyclist. I'm a guy who thinks E-bikes is a great way to get around. I'm a guy who enjoys bikes, regardless of what someone I should be wearing while riding it, or not. And as for for lycra's out there being discurteous, there's a jerk in every crowd, I'm sure even in the E-bike community.

Ok, rant over.....

for now.

Amen. But, I don't take myself seriously. (note the hell mutt in my avatar. That's me)
I like the idea that cycling isn't displayed as an athletic endeavour requiring special clothing and chiselled quads to participate.
I like the idea that cycling with electric assist will make cycling more approachable by people who are, mercifully and modestly, uncomfortable in lycra.

There are rumblings among the fixter, trixter, hipster crowd about e-bikes, (mostly scooters) in bike lanes and behaving like scud jockeys who've recently discovered the freedom of having only two wheels while also having power that doesn't require metabolic effort.
For the most part, those folks would look crappy in lycra anyway.

I like wearing underwear with a chamois. It permits the seamless, sweat absorbing, comfort and support of riding shorts while having a flat waist band for wearing under normal clothing. They're basically a thin four panel short that works as well under a wool, silk or linen suit (with the leg rolled up) as it does under cropped Carhart dungarees. Personally, I prefer bibs for comfort.

Having the seamless pad and critical support in stealth mode, while pedalling comfotably and dressed "normally" makes biking more more attractive.

Notice the oldest jock company in the USA is named "Bike". Athletic supporters were originally a "cyclist's web". (The vernacular evolved from "bike "jockeys")

The "web" today is the best thing cyclists have gotten in return for their contributions to the advent of paved roads, pneumatic tires and space exploration on the wings of the Wright Bros.

BIKES RULE!

 

[DahonElectric]

And to realize the full extent of drafting, your front wheel and his rear wheel must be within less than 1/2 inch apart!

Well, it's true that the closer you are, the more drafting helps, but 1/2 inch is too close even for experienced group riders in my opinion. Experienced riders do sometimes come up within six inches or so, but should not be as close as 1/2 inch -- it's not safe. Inexperienced drafters get plenty of benefit from being two or three feet behind their pacer. I was in a non-drafting race earlier this year. Following closer than five meters was prohibited by the race rules unless passing -- there's a detectable benefit even more than a whole bike length behind another rider.

Unfortunately, untrained racer wannabes look at someone's butt, so as soon as the front rider brakes hard and with the small gap between your front tire and his rear wheel, guess what you're gonna do next. You'll gonna clip and destroy his rear wheel.

A pacer who knows someone is drafting him/her should NEVER brake hard without giving a loud verbal warning, "slowing!" or "stopping!" Of course, drafters should be watching the road ahead so they can anticipate when their pacer is going to need to hit the brakes.

The benefit of drafting is basically to take advantage of one's slipstream at a faster speed. The closer you are to someone's slipstream, the lesser amount of energy needed to maintain a given speed. And where's the least amount of drag? If you look at most of the wind tunnel's video footage, you'll see quite obviously that you get maximum reduction in drag just behind someone's wheel to your front. While you do get a detectable benefit even more than a whole bike length (which I think is nonsense), this is mainly and purely the psychological effect of "pacing" from a stronger rider faster riding speed rather than the slipstream. I think people confuse pacing in a pace line to the benefits of drafting. While you get the benefits of someone else's draft, you are basically riding at someone else's pace as well, which if you're not careful can negate or even drain your limited energy storage in a race. That someone is called a pace rabbit. And who used pace rabbits in the past? Look no further than Mr. Lance Armstrong himself both in cycling and in his first marathon foray as well as the world's fastest marathon runner, the Ethiopian Haille Grebesaille. Both use rabbits for their own benefits.

When the officials allow drafting in the Olympic triathlon, you begin to see that, this is no longer a 3 individual sports showdown. Now swimmers and cyclists can draft each other in the attempt to conserve as much energy as they could. Tactics are now used to bleed potential rivals to let a medal hopeful win, which sounds more like a team sport. A pure classic and controversial example is our Canadian team of Colin Jenkins and Simon Whitfield. See that Simon stayed at the back of the pack, while Colin (The Horse) led the pace of the cycle pack in the attempt to run down most of the competitors' energy as much as possible so Simon can have a fresh start in the run portion, which does not benefit much from drafting. Well, it worked. Of course, Colin came in last.

So you see the implication with normal riders on the road. I don't think anyone wants to become a pace rabbit, whether or not someone is benefiting from his or her slipstream. It's probably has to do more with pacing rather drafting when you're just a bike length a way. And with a motor, this becomes easily possible. And pacing is a very powerful tool. Any professional runner and cyclist will tell you that they train with a group, rather than all by themselves. Group training have the tendency to bring your pace up, makes you to become fitter and stronger.

 

[Fumesucker]

From the years of cycling I have under my belt, about the only group of cyclists I think really are a problem, is the Critical Mass riders. Not because of what they ride, but because of the way they purposely break the law and inhibit everyone elses free travel. Only because they just want to prove a point.

I agree with most of what you say but my point of view on the CM riders is a bit different.

The thing about mixing it up in traffic on a bike is that you are totally vulnerable and the drivers are totally invulnerable.

I haven't ridden a bicycle on the road much in a long time, but I have ridden motorcycles a lot and I have to tell you that American drivers by and large bite the big one and they bite it hard. I get this forcibly pointed out to me every time I travel to Europe to see my family in the "old country", the level of driving skill I see there is far and beyond that here in the good old USA. One tiny example, most Americans now can't drive a stick, the great majority of Europeans can.

So some CM riders inconvenience a Hummer driver for a few minutes, the Hummer driver is going to do more than "inconvenience" the bike rider when he turns the biker into road pizza because he was dialing a number on his cell phone and not paying attention to where his multi-ton death machine was going or what it was about to hit.

The bike/car game is not played on a level field, that's what CM is trying to point out. Where I live, there aren't even any shoulders on a lot of the two lane 55 mph limit roads, just a sheer dropoff that can be thirty feet or more. It's hard to even walk safely here, let alone ride a bike that slows to a crawl going up hills.

Sometimes bad laws deserve to be broken to make a point, quite often it is the only way to draw any attention to just how awful the law is.

 

[lazarus2405]

And as for for lycra's out there being discurteous, there's a jerk in every crowd, I'm sure there's plenty in the E-bike community as well.

This is the most important thing that's been said in this entire thread.




To be fair, though the lycra crowd is a fair bit larger than the ebike crowd. While we may each have the same proportion of jerks, the absolute number of them is higher. This gives a false impression; I can think of several lycra jerks I've encountered, while I can't think of a single ebiker jerk I've met on the road. Such a statement is meaningless because the number of other ebikers I've encountered on the road is exactly 0. This helps to lead to an isolationist, "us vs them" attitude.



That said, lycra stories are often very comical. When other riders, some of whom take their activity very seriously, encounter an ebike they often don't know what to make of something so far outside their experience. Especially if it takes them a while to realize that it's an assisted bicycle.

 

[markcycle]

Tell me if I'm crazy or brave

On Sept 2 I'm giving a talk to the Huntington Bike club on E bike commuting. I was invited by a coworker who is a member of the club and a bike commuter. I'm an Ebiker and a Lycra and a member of the MPBC another club on Long Island. My buddies in the MPBC know I ride a E bike and often kid me as I struggle up a hills on my road bike. I invited the MPBC to the talk also with the invitation in the clubs newsletter.

So I'm ready for the usual question about the weight of the bike and other negative attitudes. I hope that after they test ride my E bike the EV smile will win them over.

I must be brave

Mark

 

[vanilla ice]

Good on you bro. We're all sort of ambassadors for ebikedom whether we like it or not. I've done some jackass stuff on my ebike before, maybe some of you have too. I try not to tho. Never had a prob with a lycra, in any case they are usually flying by too quick to interact. The casually dressed bicyclists on the other hand I have..

 

[lazarus2405]

I I recommend doing your best to show the diversity of ebike creations. They may not like your bike' s weight, or looks, or configuration, or what not, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't love an ebike. The more they see of what's out there, the more confident they'll be that what they want is out there.

Maybe bring a laptop to show off some of the creations here, eh?

 

[Patriot]

And as for for lycra's out there being discurteous, there's a jerk in every crowd, I'm sure there's plenty in the E-bike community as well.

This is the most important thing that's been said in this entire thread.

To be fair, though the lycra crowd is a fair bit larger than the ebike crowd. While we may each have the same proportion of jerks, the absolute number of them is higher. .

HA!!!. You want high numbers of jerks?

Walk out the front door, and look at the world in front of you. There's no short supply of them.

:wink:

 

[Robbie Hatfield]

BS!! The next thing you're going to say is that maybe we should learn Japanese and be more aware of this lycra's culture before passing him on the trail???? Anyone that tells me to *get the hell out of the way* had better be prepared to get out of mine! LOL

Robbie

My son and I took a brisk ride to the bicycle rental park again today so he can get his cycling on! It's about 21 kilometers roundtrip. We took the usual bike path having to go against some headwinds, and we came up behind a lycra racer sweating, huffing and puffing.

I'm usually not into pissing contests but I became curious with "drafting" so we got right up behind him for a bit. I felt no real difference in aerodynamics nor effort (how could I if I was pedaling lightly while using the throttle).

I'm not really fond of throttling and more prone to using PAS... (some of you might already know how I'm sweatin' my ass off this summer trying to keep up with my WOT PAS, 20"/408 motor, 52+ volt A123 packs @ 20amps. . .)

So I decided to pass him in order to use my PAS mode. I gave him a courtesy ring on my bell with a single *ding* but he was startled and wobbled bit. Maybe he didn't know I was behind him. I went on PAS mode and began to pass him with a slight nod/bow while pedaling furiously to keep up with my motor... and this asshole decided to yell in Japanese "Get the hell out of my way ! ! ! 1" so that the other cyclists down the road would think that I was the one yelling.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not averse to yelling at pedestrians and other cyclists, but only when my bell isn't effective or when someone ahead of me is doing something dangerous. But this jerk took offense to a single ring.

I guess ringing your bell at a wannabe racer is a serious insult, specially when sailing past him on 20" wheels, carrying a 3 year old and a duffle bag, with jazz blaring out of your speakers on a hot sticky day... whatever.

J

Then you should know the proper drafting etiquette! Here's why. The rear wheel of the front rider is sometimes the most expensive component of the bike. If paired spoked wheels are used and they sport SAPIM bladed spokes, which are very expensive per spoke wise than a regular spoke. And to realize the full extent of drafting, your front wheel and his rear wheel must be within less than 1/2 inch apart! See where I'm getting at. In the racing world, every rider is aware you're drafting behind him. This is called a "pace line".
In the cycling world, the rule of the road is, YOU MUST INITIATE an intention of drafting. By ringing the bell and asking the front rider for permission, you make him fully aware of you at the rear is the only nice and proper thing you can do. When you're drafting a front rider, you do not have a clear view of the front, only his rear brake and ass, especially his rear brake. Your only cue if he's stopping is when he's braking, so you'll keep a sharp eye on it, at least most racers do. Unfortunately, untrained racer wannabes look at someone's butt, so as soon as the front rider brakes hard and with the small gap between your front tire and his rear wheel, guess what you're gonna do next. You'll gonna clip and destroy his rear wheel. If you have a strong front wheel like an eZee, then you'll likely destroy his rear rim. What if that racer type in front of you runs a pair of Zip 404 or a set of Spinergy Carbon wheels? These guys will set you back about $1000! Who's going to be footing the bill then? You?

While you're drafting, the front rider is supposedly to peel off to the left hand side as you maintain speed and then the lead front rider will re-integrate into the rear of the pace line. You DO NOT PASS the front rider on the left especially running long. Running long means you are increasing speed to pass him, because it will take you longer to pass him rather than he would just by reducing speed, peel to the left and re-integrating into the rear pack as any proper person drafting would do. This introduces danger not only to you because you are taking someone's lane to pass him and you have to constantly look at front traffic and his bike in relation to yours so you don't clip his front.
Drafting etiquette is there to protect all riders.

Also, I'm not surprised if the front rider is really pissed, totally pissed. I would too! First of all, whether or not you're benefiting his draft or not, he's doing the grunt work for you because he's pacing you too. Why didn't you return the favour by offering yourself as a wind blocker since you've got a MOTOR as you know he's puffing and huffing and offer an equal time of drafting as a return favor?!?

If you don't know anything about drafting, don't draft behind someone. Learning to ride in a peloton and drafting is part of pro racing cycling and it takes a few rides to master the technique and make it safe.
Unfortunately, when normal people try it, they do it in an unsafe manner which not only endanger the front rider and also yourself.

If I know someone drafts me, which a lot do due to my speeds on the electric bike, I give a left hand signal and peel away from them slowly. I had the unfortunate experience of some idiot who did actually clipped and destroyed my rear carbon rim. He was just such a complete looser and unwilling to accept responsibility and not only that, couldn't even afford to buy me a new rear placement wheel.