lyen controller ?

[beoutside]

Re Lyen Controller I would really appreciate some advice and lessons!

My system
48 V BMC V3 rear used
new
Cali bike 15 ah battery
CA 3
three speed switch
lyen controller.

I to am an ebike newbie but have a builder and mechanic, both car and bike, background.
With my fluke and very limited knowledge on the electrical side of how these work my diagnose
With only controller powered, no CA plugged in

1.54 V going to controller

2. On controller side phase wires show 11.88 V
As I twist throttle no change.
What should the voltage be at this point, I assumed 0? And that the voltage would climb as the throttle twists?

3. As I retested phase wires I would get a minimum voltage on 1 ( below 1V) and still 11.88 on two others.

4.Checking hall wires red to ground 4.45
blue and green go 5.0 V to 0v , yellow goes 4.82 V to 0, as you slowly rotate wheel backwards.
Checking Throttle connector at controller it has 3.4 V coming off controller green black increasing to 3.63V as you rotate ?
When I checked this throttle through my CA it has .6V ranging up to over 4 V as twisting.
5. Checking resistance on phase wires at controller ground to all phase wires shows just under 10 K ohms
6. Checking resistance on all phase wires from controller power on controller shows between 14 and 15 K ohms.

Really appreciate any tips or links explaining whats going on.

This on a Yuba Mundo cargo build that runs 95% on no hills carrying two small kids and groceries while I pedal as well.
Appreciate your time
Donny

 

[Ykick]

Have you seen this info before?

http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/troubleshooting.html

Should apply to some of the things you’re describing.

Are you measuring phase voltage with the motor connected or disconnected?

Although Lyen usually has good protections, I would be careful testing a more generic live controller and throttle without a motor connected to the phase wiring. Energy sometimes may try to find a place to go…

Does the system not work? Has it ever worked? Do you have the correct phase power - hall sensor combination? Is that the reason for testing? Or, just curious? I've never measured phase wire voltages and I've troubleshooted many BLDC hub motors.

 

[Alan B]

Did this ever work together, or is this a newly connected setup?

1.54V where?

Are the motor and hall wires phased properly? The controller can't work right until this phasing is correct. The halls are used to tell the controller where the motor is so the controller can make the magnetic field to make torque. When it is wrong the motor may not move, or may fail to move smoothly.

 

[beoutside]

Thanks so much for the quick response here is another posting I listed Sat.

DIY Yuba Mundo BMC V3 48V died mid ride

Postby beoutside » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:37 pm
I built this bike up from a frame last year and thought I finally had the bugs out.
BMC V3 Hub 48V 1000 W Used
Lyen Controller
CA 3
twist throttle
3 speed switch

I just pulled this bike out for the new season, it charged to 54V ( full for my battery) and started up once I reconnected everything.
At the end of last season I was just figuring out the CA but seemed to have it running smooth and also with in the pedal speeds that suited the three settings.
I had a good twenty rides in no issues except for configuring CA with three setting switch to get rid of throttle cutting in and out as I was pedaling.
1) set for starting and town, if I pedaled more then 10 mph the motor cuts out.
2) set for Bike Path 20 mph
3) 30 mph... I am late picking up kids.

I have quite a bit of experience building bikes , limited electrical experience, no ebike experience.

On the first ride into town this season the motor cut out mid ride
I checked my connections and they seem fine, also checked battery charge fine

There is no motor noise/function in any speed setting or any throttle position.

The hub moves fine by hand and still pedals fine

I have contacted Edward Lyen and he is a great help but need to learn more about how these entire systems work.
We are working on diagnosing the problem.

What I have checked

1.With My fluke I have 54 V to controller
While plugged in I have 11.88 V DC coming off my main Blue, Yellow, and Green larger Gauge wires running to the hub. ( PLease explain this to me) This does not change when I change the 3 speed setting , this does not change when I have the throttle full or off .

2.Testing the smaller wires running from the hub to controller ( Hall sensor) ... All from the controller side...... everything plugged in ....
I have 4.29 V from red to black
from black to blue and turning the wheel slowly in reverse I read 5V to .034 V to 0 V back to 5V
from black to green I read 5V to .034 V to 0V back to 5V
from black to yellow I read 4.81V NOT 5V then .034 V to 0 V then back to 4.81V

3.also if it matters I have continuity between all phase wires blue,yellow, and green. I have NO continuity between phase and hall wires lg blue to sm blue, lg yellow to sm yellow, lg green to sm green . I have never seen a hub open so not sure what that means . After reading on Grins trouble shooting site I checked Resistance on phase wires no power connected showing from ground controller to all phase controller wires over 9 K ohms, from red controller to all phase wires showing over 14 K ohms.

Any tips?
Also I would love to understand how electrical bike systems run from the ground up, so I'll be better equipped to diagnose problems understanding what electricity/voltage/watts/amps all mean and how they relate to the system and how the systems components relate to each other. Any suggested readings????

Appreciate your time
Donny

 

[beoutside]

The BMC V3 hub was used everything else new.

 

[beoutside]

Also Edward suggested testing the throttle.
I unplugged the CA and the CA throttle connection left everything else plugged in and plugged throttle directly into controller showing
red to black 4.63 V
Showing green to black 3.4 V as twist throttle showing 3.63 V
When running throttle through CA I get under 1V then twisting throttle over 4V.
Thanks for all the help
Donny

 

[Alan B]

So it quit mid ride. Either a wire or connection went bad, or the motor or controller or throttle failed.

You check all the connections and they are the same as they were and they are good.

The throttle seems ok.

Was the motor hot when it quit? Motor failures are shorts or opens or hall sensor failures.

The controller may be bad.

The motor halls may be bad. As you turn the motor backwards (gearmotor) each hall output should alternate between about 0V and more than 3.5V, it is a digital signal.

Motor windings or wiring could short or open.

There are only so many possibilities. I would make sure the wiring is solid and there are no shorts in the motor, and try another controller. Keeping a spare controller around for testing or backup is useful.

 

[beoutside]

So it quit mid ride. Either a wire or connection went bad, or the motor or controller or throttle failed.

You check all the connections and they are the same as they were and they are good.

yes

The throttle seems ok.

Checking Throttle connector at controller it has 3.4 V coming off controller green black increasing to 3.63V as you rotate ? Edward says that should not be the case.
When I checked this throttle through my CA it has .6V ranging up to over 4 V as twisting. It is plugged through my CA always and the numbers here are good. I only checked it at controller without CA plugged in since Edward Lyen recommended that.

Was the motor hot when it quit? Motor failures are shorts or opens or hall sensor failures.

Not sure didn't check opps !

The controller may be bad.

The motor halls may be bad. As you turn the motor backwards (gearmotor) each hall output should alternate between about 0V and more than 3.5V, it is a digital signal.
. I did checking hall wires red to ground 4.45
blue and green go 5.0 V to 0v , yellow goes 4.82 V to 0, as you slowly rotate wheel backwards, as Edward advised

Motor windings or wiring could short or open.
I guess you can only tell that by opening hub?

There are only so many possibilities. I would make sure the wiring is solid and there are no shorts in the motor, and try another controller. Keeping a spare controller around for testing or backup is useful.

Edward has asked for controller back to diagnose.

 

[Alan B]

The throttle measurements are contradictory. It is supplied 4.5 to 5V and should return a range of approx 1-4V as it is operated.

The halls appear good.

The motor phase wires should be infinite resistance to the axle, and should be the same between any two pairs, very low value like 0.1 ohms which is hard to measure accurately, but should be very close to the same between pairs.

Edward will sort out the controller.

You might consider having a spare controller on hand, and a spare throttle.

 

[beoutside]

The throttle measurements are contradictory. It is supplied 4.5 to 5V and should return a range of approx 1-4V as it is operated.

Thats what I saw when connected through CA but not when directly connected to controller... I'll recheck

The halls appear good.

The motor phase wires should be infinite resistance to the axle, and should be the same between any two pairs, very low value like 0.1 ohms which is hard to measure accurately, but should be very close to the same between pairs.

thanks I only checked Resistance within the controller itself and its phase wires via grin.ca website ( controller ground to its three phase ) (controller power to its three phase wires) on the ground to phase they say about 10 K ohms which I saw but from the controller power lead to phase they say infinite as well, I saw over 14 k ohms on each of those instead.
How would you check resistance to hub ? Plug in controller to phase hub wires then recheck the same way they say on grin.ca? Thanks !


Edward will sort out the controller.

Since I was only reading no more than 12 V to hub with any throttle configuration on any phase wire I assumed it was a controller issue. I assume you need a much higher voltage going to hub.

You might consider having a spare controller on hand, and a spare throttle.

Any suggestions ? \

48 V system , BMC V3 rear, 15 ah battery , CA 3 . Cargo bike with low loads and no hills pretty much, pedaling always. Thanks

 

[beoutside]

Here is pic , I have since added a bread basket, floor boards and wrapped the rear tire for safety.

 

[nutnspecial]

Hey guy. Good job on documenting the troubleshoot and hopeful repair. I think the throttle may indicate a controller issue, although it could just be a wiring/plug issue.

From what I remember, and if it's correct:

After confirming the ca's voltage to the throttle (about 5v), and the return voltage (0-5) thru throttle range, you can assume throttle is good. (you mentioned a past test, and this is roughly what you want to see)

Confirm voltage for ca from controller. I think it might be pack voltage. This might explain the differing throttle readings, indicating something out on controller 5v side or the naked connection to throttle.

(the 6 ca wires are noted in the guide by teklektik, but i don't remember what's what.)

Now rule out (disconnect/bypass) the ca completely, and anything not needed. Rule out any on/off switches, 3spd switches, cruise, ebrakes, regen, pas, etc, so as not to have false results for any following steps. Rule that stuff out, cuz you don't need it to operate basically.

Make new connection (likely 3wire) for throttle to controller.
You'll need to confirm proper 3 wires are used, in right order. (instr controller, instr throttle, and/or various testing)

Then recheck connections for phase and halls from controller to motor if you feel like it.
Make live with battery and try it. Results?
If bad, next confirm voltage coming to the throttle.
If bad, try with halls and phases disconnected.

Interesting to see the resistances tested, and phase voltage. I have no idea what if anything they indicate though. I think maybe it's something controller related (maybe 5v control side). This is what I'd do to narrow things down.

 

[beoutside]

Hey guy. Good job on documenting the troubleshoot and hopeful repair. I think the throttle may indicate a controller issue, although it could just be a wiring/plug issue.

From what I remember, and if it's correct:

After confirming the ca's voltage to the throttle (about 5v), and the return voltage (0-5) thru throttle range, you can assume throttle is good. (you mentioned a past test, and this is roughly what you want to see)

Confirm voltage for ca from controller. I think it might be pack voltage. This might explain the differing throttle readings, indicating something out on controller 5v side or the naked connection to throttle.

(the 6 ca wires are noted in the guide by teklektik, but i don't remember what's what.)

Now rule out (disconnect/bypass) the ca completely, and anything not needed. Rule out any on/off switches, 3spd switches, cruise, ebrakes, regen, pas, etc, so as not to have false results for any following steps. Rule that stuff out, cuz you don't need it to operate basically.
I don't run any of that just the CA , three setting switch and throttle. I did hear back from Edward lyen and he has been very helpful we just seem to find the issue but throttle readings seem weird I think . Without the CA attached and testing throttle wires on controller side I get 5 V black to red... great, but testing black to green I get 3.4 V. with throttle plugged in of course I get 3.4 at start then 3.6 WOT wide open throttle .


Make new connection (likely 3wire) for throttle to controller.
You'll need to confirm proper 3 wires are used, in right order. (instr controller, instr throttle, and/or various testing)

Then recheck connections for phase and halls from controller to motor if you feel like it.
Make live with battery and try it. Results?
If bad, next confirm voltage coming to the throttle.
If bad, try with halls and phases disconnected.

Interesting to see the resistances tested, and phase voltage. I have no idea what if anything they indicate though. I think maybe it's something controller related (maybe 5v control side). This is what I'd do to narrow things down.

I'll repost when I get the controller back..... worked sweet for 20 rides last year and 1/2 ride this season.... kids are bummed Dad just cant pedal that fast

 

[beoutside]

I did recheck throttle and as Edward started no CA . I am getting 3.4 V from green ... should be less that 1V so sending controller in Edward Lyen has been very helpful.

 

[beoutside]

I ordered another Lyen controller, problem solved, went with a 12 mosfet vs the 9 mosfet one I had been using, although it only had 30 miles on it I have not received any warranty credit.
I also ordered a BMC controller 12 mosfet, directly from BMC.
Thanks for all the help .Donny

The throttle measurements are contradictory. It is supplied 4.5 to 5V and should return a range of approx 1-4V as it is operated.

Thats what I saw when connected through CA but not when directly connected to controller... I'll recheck

The halls appear good.

The motor phase wires should be infinite resistance to the axle, and should be the same between any two pairs, very low value like 0.1 ohms which is hard to measure accurately, but should be very close to the same between pairs.

thanks I only checked Resistance within the controller itself and its phase wires via grin.ca website ( controller ground to its three phase ) (controller power to its three phase wires) on the ground to phase they say about 10 K ohms which I saw but from the controller power lead to phase they say infinite as well, I saw over 14 k ohms on each of those instead.
How would you check resistance to hub ? Plug in controller to phase hub wires then recheck the same way they say on grin.ca? Thanks !


Edward will sort out the controller.

Since I was only reading no more than 12 V to hub with any throttle configuration on any phase wire I assumed it was a controller issue. I assume you need a much higher voltage going to hub.

You might consider having a spare controller on hand, and a spare throttle.

Any suggestions ? \

48 V system , BMC V3 rear, 15 ah battery , CA 3 . Cargo bike with low loads and no hills pretty much, pedaling always. Thanks

 

[beoutside]

I ordered another Lyen controller, problem solved, went with a 12 mosfet vs the 9 mosfet one I had been using, although it only had 30 miles on it I have not received any warranty credit.
I also ordered a BMC controller 12 mosfet, directly from BMC.
Thanks for all the help .Donny

 

[Alan B]

Excellent. I'd be interested to hear the difference you experience between the Lyen and the BMC controllers.

12 FET controllers are workhorses, they have 2 FETs in parallel for each of the six positions in the three phase output bridge. They are a good compromise between size, cost and performance.

 

[beoutside]

Will do!, At the moment I am reading through the unofficial CA V3 manual to make sure I have my perimeters set correctly but as far as I know it is and seems to be running well with the new Lyen controller. I should have the new BMC controller from ebikesf by next week. I was/am a little disappointed Edward didn't give me a warranty return on the 9 mosfet controller he recommended, but I did put it in writing I needed this new one to be covered. Since it's the start of our biking season I can get a ton of errand rides in soon to see if there are any issues.
As always thanks for the input Donny .

Excellent. I'd be interested to hear the difference you experience between the Lyen and the BMC controllers.

12 FET controllers are workhorses, they have 2 FETs in parallel for each of the six positions in the three phase output bridge. They are a good compromise between size, cost and performance.

 

[Ykick]

Edward didn't give me a warranty return on the 9 mosfet controller he recommended, but I did put it in writing I needed this new one to be covered. Since it's the start of our biking season I can get a ton of errand rides in soon to see if there are any issues.

I’m not following some things here and the rest of the thread. You had a 9FET Lyen quit working? You returned it and bought a 12FET for a replacement? No credit given for the 9FET or did he return it and suggest you needed an additional 12FET controller?

And, if I read this correctly, you bought the 9FET last year and everything was working until 1st ride of this year?

Please fill us in on the specific 9FET item details (purchase date and subsequent repairs, if any?) and reason for buying 12FET replacement?

Thanks…

 

[beoutside]

I Bought the 9 mosfet last year and I do believe Edward only covers his stuff for thirty days. With that said it was a last year purchase. I did point out to Edward I had maybe 8 rides in and no more then 30 to 40 miles on the bike before storing it for the winter, and that it died midride first time out. I returned it he said it needed repair, $50, I decided to just buy the 12 mosfet. He may have given me a 10 dollar discount on the 12 mosfet, not sure.
From Edward:
Hi Donny,

I have received your controller and troubleshooted. Unfortunately, the
microprocessor is shocked and a high power capacitor blew. I am not
sure the root cause. I would suggest if you leave the battery with the
charger plug in, it would be best to unplug the controller completely
by disconnect the main battery terminal (or at least one of the
battery wire such as the battery positive). This way, the capacitors
inside the controller will not be charged when the battery is being
charged. Also unplug the controller when not in use. The reason is
because the controller is still in standby mode when it is turned off.

The controller circuit board and two capacitors need to be replaced,
the repair cost is $50. Please let me know if you would like me to
proceed.

At first I was concerned I had blown the controller while trying to trouble shoot it, but if that was the case the new controller would not have fixed the original bike shut down. Unless I somehow remedied the original problem while trouble shooting loose connections.

I am also changing out all power connections from Andersen pole to XT90 antispark.
I will be the first to admit I am a bike builder / mechanic not an electrician.



NEW QUESTION from a bike mechanic back ground :
1) I have the controller mounted upside down directly to plywood, which is the cover for the rear cargo rack on the yuba mundo. Is that a problem? Also should I pad it between the controller and wood?
2)
My hub has a little bit of play which is more then I would allow on a regular bike, do the same rules apply fro adjusting
and ebike hubs play? I am running 203 mm disc brakes front and rear which allows the play to not be a rubbing issue ( avid mechanical disc brakes are very easy to adjust pad to disc distance)


As always appreciate everyone's time..... BMC controller arriving monday, I won't be changing that out right away due to time constants at the moment.

Edward didn't give me a warranty return on the 9 mosfet controller he recommended, but I did put it in writing I needed this new one to be covered. Since it's the start of our biking season I can get a ton of errand rides in soon to see if there are any issues.

I’m not following some things here and the rest of the thread. You had a 9FET Lyen quit working? You returned it and bought a 12FET for a replacement? No credit given for the 9FET or did he return it and suggest you needed an additional 12FET controller?

And, if I read this correctly, you bought the 9FET last year and everything was working until 1st ride of this year?

Please fill us in on the specific 9FET item details (purchase date and subsequent repairs, if any?) and reason for buying 12FET replacement?

Thanks…

 

[beoutside]

I will have to change / upgrade my phase wire connectors and power from battery connector before trying, but my first impression ( so far only visual) is the BMC controller seems of much better quality and more robust build. I have 100 miles on the new controller Lyen sent me so I won't be changing it out until I pass his 30 day warranty expires on me.
Donny

Excellent. I'd be interested to hear the difference you experience between the Lyen and the BMC controllers.

12 FET controllers are workhorses, they have 2 FETs in parallel for each of the six positions in the three phase output bridge. They are a good compromise between size, cost and performance.

 

[beoutside]

Just wanted to ad I have had no problems with Edwards new controller what so ever.
I need to install a hard more secure battery case in my frame so thinking its a good time to try the BMC controller since I need to modify some of my plug ends anyways and wanted to upgrade the phase bullets to the hub.
After hooking everything back up no motor movement what so ever...
I am using the configuration ebikesssf gave me which is colors match for hall and phase , and assuming the colors we originally correct since the Lyen controller worked fine with his color configuration.
On the BMC controller there is a adapter with quick connect that has a 5 pin male jst end pulling back a little shrink wrap I see the red,blue,green,yellow,black ... I will confirm the blue green they look an off color to me?
Since I redid some ends I will try Edwards controller again to confirm it's the new BMC controller .
Thanks as always appreciate the thoughts and advice !
Donny

 

[beoutside]

BMC controller still sitting in box. I have had no luck getting it to work I assume it must be my hall and or phase wiring configuration but the BMC hub runs fine on the lyen controller and my connections were done as instructed... will diagnose soon. thanks tips ?

Excellent. I'd be interested to hear the difference you experience between the Lyen and the BMC controllers.

12 FET controllers are workhorses, they have 2 FETs in parallel for each of the six positions in the three phase output bridge. They are a good compromise between size, cost and performance.