Magic Pie 4 vs Crystalite HS3540

[galo]

Hello guys,

I am new to this forum and I have some doubts about which kit to buy, I've been a happy user of the Magic Pie 3 kit for 3 years but my controller died twice because of little rain.

Now after some research and because of this design of the internal controller is not good and I am not sure if buy the new version of the Magic Pie or go with the Crystalite brand.

With the Magic Pie 3 my max speed without pedaling is 42kph, my battery is a LifeP04 48v10a and for these 3 years it gives me around 25km per charge.

I live in Canada so my options are:

Magic Pie 4
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Magic-Pie-4-%28VECTOR%29-26-Inch-Front-Conversion-Kit.html

Crystalite HS3540
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/direct-drive/crystalyte-front-hs-kit-basic-throttle.html

The price difference is about $300cad, crystalite more expensive

My main concern is that if I go with the crystalite is it gonna be good quality??, The new Magic Pie 4 with integrated controller will be ok?, The speed/torque/performance would be similar in those two?

Thanks a lot for reading.

 

[Make More Pi]

I have dealt with both companies. Based on customer service and technical knowledge, ebikes.ca wins hands down

The owner of ebikes.ca is justin_le. You have to listen to the 3 hour interview with Justin on the ebike nerd cast. You will then know what kind of guy Justin is and want to do business with him. No one paid me to day that.

Here is a link to help find the interview - http://www.juicedriders.com/updates/2012/3/19/listen-to-the-ebike-nerdcast-interview-with-justin-lemire-el.html

 

[r3volved]

Ebikes.ca is a really great company. My only complaint is that they ship things TOO FAST! I always order from them last and always ships to my before anything else. I always end up with a whack of parts from them to that I can't use cause I'm waiting for other vendors!!
LOL...thats a good problem to have though
They have really good parts...i've bought a bunch of stuff from them now, and I haven't had any problems with any of it.

I have heard a LOT of VERY good things about GM Canada...specifically Golden Motor Canada and quite a few bad things about GM USA. GMC seems to have top notch customer service and warranty program. The motors I've seen from GMC have all been year-round runners and still perform well years later.

That doesn't really solve your problem of which to go for...but at least you're on the two right tracks. I don't know how proprietary GM is with all their other components...perhaps the Crystalite offers more flexibility in terms of controller and battery?

 

[neptronix]

Don't buy either. Those are both outdated ~80% efficient motors.

Get a leaf motor. 90% efficiency. Same weight, but more power to the ground per pound and longer range.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=66489&start=75

If you really want a magic pie, i have a magic pie 2 for sale in the used section spoked up to a 26" rim, selling at almost 1/3rd of the cost i paid. It was never abused and only has 5 miles on it. This has the same stator as the magic pie 4. Add an external sine wave controller, and you'll have the same performance.

 

[galo]

Thanks lot guys for your replies,

neptronix I am very intrigued with this leaf motor, it looks like very good, the problem is that I am kinda newby to this world of electric bikes, my experience comes from assembling my magic pie 3 but no mods from 3 years ago.

Do you think this kit will be better than the other 2 I was asking about for like out of the box usage or do suggest any "easy" mods.

http://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-bike-conversion-kit/26-inch-electric-hub-motor-kit/newest-26-inch-48v-1000w-electric-bike-kit-front-wheel-912.html

 

[neptronix]

The controller in those kits suck, but the motor is awesome. Buy the motor spoked to a wheel and get a controller from em3ev or lyen.

Do not do a front motor with this level of power. You cannot safely use front suspension with it, and at the speeds it will go, you'll need front suspension. You'll also experience torque steer and slippage with the motor in the front. Very unsafe when we are talking a powerful motor like these.

Read my leafmotor thread. You'll probably want to order a higher turn version because these motors go about 40mph on 48v by default, which is excessive and requires tons of amps, which most premade batteries cannot do. The higher turn count models use less amps but go slower per volt, which is more along the line of what a prebuilt battery can handle.

Thanks lot guys for your replies,

neptronix I am very intrigued with this leaf motor, it looks like very good, the problem is that I am kinda newby to this world of electric bikes, my experience comes from assembling my magic pie 3 but no mods from 3 years ago.

Do you think this kit will be better than the other 2 I was asking about for like out of the box usage or do suggest any "easy" mods.

http://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-bike-conversion-kit/26-inch-electric-hub-motor-kit/newest-26-inch-48v-1000w-electric-bike-kit-front-wheel-912.html

 

[galo]

I´ve been reading your thread and I am still a little bit confused with all the info, to resume I think I´m going for the leaf motor, in this case rear so it will be safer and more powerful like you suggested.

About the controller I cannot seem to find where to buy them as the pages are very outdated so not sure if still available, what do you think about those ebikes.ca controllers like this one:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/controllers/c7225-nc.html

I am asking about these specific companies because they´re in Canada and I think its easier to deal with warranties and support but correct me if I´m wrong.

Like I stated before in my case I have a pre-made battery 48v10ah (3 years old btw), will it work or is it worth to buy the 1000w or 1500w motor for like "kinda normal" use (30-35mph with 15-20 miles commute) as for the moment I am not planning to buy/build a new battery but certainly later will replace it for something more powerful.

Again thanks for the advice.

The controller in those kits suck, but the motor is awesome. Buy the motor spoked to a wheel and get a controller from em3ev or lyen.

Do not do a front motor with this level of power. You cannot safely use front suspension with it, and at the speeds it will go, you'll need front suspension. You'll also experience torque steer and slippage with the motor in the front. Very unsafe when we are talking a powerful motor like these.

Read my leafmotor thread. You'll probably want to order a higher turn version because these motors go about 40mph on 48v by default, which is excessive and requires tons of amps, which most premade batteries cannot do. The higher turn count models use less amps but go slower per volt, which is more along the line of what a prebuilt battery can handle.

 

[neptronix]

A 25 amp controller would be incredibly weak.

The default winding on the 1500w motor will do 40mph on 48v.
This will use approx. 2000 watts, or 41A cruising.
Thus, you'll want a 60A controller for that motor - at the least.

As for other windings, i don't know what they work out to in terms of speed per volt on 48v. You'll have to ask someone in the thread who bought one. The 1000w motor is very similar to the 1500w motor.

I would buy a programmable controller. Then you could adjust the amps later. em3ev or lyen will sell these.
a 12FET lyen or em3ev controller will do the job. They may be rated for 40A, but that's a very, very conservative rating. I used to set mine to 80A. My 1500w leaf motor will need 80A to accelerate from a stall, but the amperage drops down to about 40A.

Watch some of my videos.

 

[wesnewell]

If you were happy with the performance of the kit you had, don't buy anything but a new $25-$50 48V controller and use the motor you have with the new controller. Or if you wanted more speed you could get a 72V controller. But then you'd have to upgrade your 48V battery.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/313864

 

[neptronix]

He'd have to rip out the internal controller, and solder and route leads out of the motor to do that.
Not a fun task for a newbie.

I guess it could be done if he'd already done some controller replacements before and seen the wiring.

I wouldn't really chose a non-programmable greentime over a programmable controller though. Greentime controllers tend to use junk FETs as well unless you ask for 4110's..

 

[galo]

I was thinking about just getting the controller but I didn´t want to buy another internal controller as they are very bad and I was not sure how or if an external controller would work, but after reading the forums I became more interested in about what can I do with an e-bike and wanted to upgrade to a different or better system.

I was happy with my setup 45kph, 25km distance super cool, but of course I want more power, do I need it?, maybe not but like most people in this forum I want more performance, I want to try it, there is also the problem with the law as the max permitted is 32kph but no one puts attention to that and I never go offroad, I am always in the city so I think 50kph will not give me troubles with the law.

I found the controller so now the only thing missing is the battery that can be expensive to upgrade for the moment, so far with the advice from neptronix the setup I´m thinking is something like this but only if my 48v10ah pre-made battery does the job for that speed and distance I want to achieve for the moment, if not. I´ll maybe go with the crystalite kit.

Controller:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=82

Motor:
http://leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-inch/newest-26-inch-48v-1000w-rear-hub-motor-wheel-892.html

Btw I already took out the internal controller (very easy with those magic pies).

 

[Bigbikebob]

My two cents about the magic pie brand.
I am using it right now and can't say there is anything special about it. The internal controller is a fragile little creature and I burned 2 of them using them under normal load. In the end I just rewired the motor with external controller. Plus good luck getting a reply from Goldenmotors when you need them.

To sum up when you buy a MagicPie motor, you are overpaying for a well branded unreliable motor with no manufacturer support.

*In total contrast, my first build was with a conhismotor kit with reliable components and with great tech support when I was a total noob and had no idea how to measure the voltage of my battery

 

[wesnewell]

Your options are limited by your battery pack. What's the max amp draw of it? That will limit your controller choice. If your battery is limited to a max 30A output, then you should stick with a controller with a max 30A draw. IMO paying $100 plus shipping for a 12 fet controller is crazy when you can get one for $19 bucks. I've been running a 72V 40A 15 fet 1500W controller for 4+ years that only cost $35 shipped. Very similar to this one.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-72V-1500W-45Amax-BLDC-motor-speed-controller-15FET-4410-s-Electric-Bicycle-Controller/313864_499889986.html
But hey, if you've got more money than you know what to do with, by all means buy anything you want. That leafbike motor will probably perform about the same as your MP3 motor. Good luck.

 

[wineboyrider]

I think the OP is looking for more along the lines of technical support than what is the best performing etc. If you want support go with ebikes.ca if you want to diy than go with the leaf motor neptronix links too and get a programmable controller that fits your battery and then the learning begins.

 

[galo]

I want to get the best deal and the best performance possible but also I am learning in this process as I didn´t know anything about the e-bike world even though I had my bike running for 3 years.

In my head I prefer to deal more with local (national) stores because I had and heard about terrible experiences regarding warranties, as any electronic device no matter the price can fail or can be DOA so I know about people ordering something that takes like one month to arrive and its DOA, then pay to send it back for warranty and wait another month to receive a reply and another month to receive the device, its kinda crazy, that´s why I am more inclined to pay a little but more but have a faster response, for the support both ebikes.ca and goldenmotor.ca are really really good, I can even make call to the owner of GMC and he is always open to help people, it doesn´t mean I want to stick with what they offer because after seeing the different prices they are in the expensive side.

Now discovering all this community I am not sure what to do, getting something that fits my needs, go to the next step, as a newbie its kinda difficult seeing all those numbers and it doesn´t help that I don´t know too much about electronics.

I appreciate all the advice I´m getting here, thanks a lot.

 

[neptronix]

My two cents about the magic pie brand.
I am using it right now and can't say there is anything special about it. The internal controller is a fragile little creature and I burned 2 of them using them under normal load. In the end I just rewired the motor with external controller. Plus good luck getting a reply from Goldenmotors when you need them.

To sum up when you buy a MagicPie motor, you are overpaying for a well branded unreliable motor with no manufacturer support.

Almost every motor ever produced with an internal controller has frequent failures. Bionx, A2B, Magic pie, etc etc all suffer from constant internal controller failure. This is a design flaw.

The magic pie is actually a very reliable motor by itself. I've owned 2 external controller models and they work great.

As a rule, i'd never trust any internal controllered motor. Whenever i bring this up though, i get this response: "no, no.. it's different with this motor, see how well it's designed!" by the people who are so hot to own such a thing

 

[Bigbikebob]

Almost every motor ever produced with an internal controller has frequent failures. Bionx

Never owned one due to price , closed ecosystem and low power but was sure they are reliable for the asking price.

The magic pie is actually a very reliable motor by itself

You are right, let me rephrase myself. It's a relatively expansive motor with an unreliable internal controller. The thing is I worked with 3 different conhismotor motors ( 500W ,1000W) they all worked nicely for a few years, with no problems (and were sold), were more convenient if maintenance needed (no need to take the rear wheel apart) and cost about 90$ (excluding shipping).A MagicPie cost me about 250$ and was much less reliable due to the controller.

 

[MadRhino]

Out of them two, the HS does much better for both acceleration and top speed, and a HS can be found locally in Montreal for 200 $. Many bikes do hit the 100 Kmh with a HS. Yet both are poor design. One can find a better motor for the price, and much better when willing to pay more.

 

[neptronix]

The external controller model magic pie has historically sold for $150, now sells for $162 at goldenmotor.ca
It's always been cheaper than a crystalyte H35.
It also doesn't suffer of wire-axle cutting issues, nor is the axle made out of butter like the low end Crystalyte motors.
So many people have destroyed their Crystalyte H35 axles over the years, using the best of torque arms. I've not heard of axle failure on a magic pie with proper torque arms.

I had a Crystalyte HS3548 in a 20" wheel for a very short period of time. After a short period of 6000W peak usage, i saw little dents forming in the axle. I put 120v into a 20" magic pie and beat the crap out of it for much longer and that never happened to the axle..

As for the Bionx motor ( at least the ones before ~2014 ), it likes to break axles ( at wimpy stock power levels!!! ) and have the internal controller die often enough that it's a rather expensive, proprietary mistake for many. What a joke :lol:

 

[galo]

I am getting that em3ev controller and lower the current limit, that way it will fit my battery in the meatime I upgrade it, if I understood correctly, there are some infineon controllers around but cannot program those so in my case I think will not work, I guess

 

[neptronix]

When we say 'infineon controller', we mean that they're all based on the original infineon design.. these types of controllers are generally programmable.

Anyway, that sounds like a good plan.

I am getting that em3ev controller and lower the current limit, that way it will fit my battery in the meatime I upgrade it, if I understood correctly, there are some infineon controllers around but cannot program those so in my case I think will not work, I guess

 

[hydro-one]

what nep said . axles on clyte and almost everything else sux i would be willing to try an mp after 5 hs/ht motors all blown up btw i have two bn axles for sale now ht35.....

 

[eBikeWannaBe]

I went thru the same thing as you last year - trying to decide between ebikes.ca and goldenmotor.ca. I think for support ebikes is way better if you need technical advice as GM admits that the technical world is not his strong point. Ebikes is leading the pack for technical stuff! Having said that I went with GM Canada, I just couldn't afford any of ebikes offerings last year. I think the lineup has changed at ebikes now. In any event I went with a MP4 and had some issues with the regen not working. GM was great about sending parts so I could fix it. In the end it was a silly brake lever shorting out the +5v line and resetting the controller. Now that it is sorted I love the mp4. It has great power and climbs any hill I can ask of it. I've checked the motor after running it hard and it only feels warm. In the past the internal controllers from GM have had issues with failures. I'm hoping that the MP4 is better ... if not I'll swap to an external controller. I love that the mp4 is silent and has lots of power for my needs. Good luck.

 

[MadRhino]

The HS is good only for its power to weight ratio, that is why I still have 2 after frying half a dozen. Never broke an axle on the HS, for they never lived long enough.

For me, the HS is like a disposable, a cheap back up that is keeping your bike doing the 100 Kmh while you are waiting for a big motor to arrive.