Medium Speed Vehicles: 35 mph street legal BEVs

[Toshi]

My wife is set on having an EV for her next ride, and for her I'd only consider a full-size, full-capability, ICE-car-equivalent BEV, especially since she'll probably be carting around our future children in the upcoming years. I realize that I'll have to pay out the nose for such traits, and I'm fine with that in a vehicle for my wife.

For me, however, I could make do with less. I won't be carting kids around routinely. I plan to live relatively close to my future workplace, so wouldn't need freeway capability. I'd like to spend less money and consume less in general, if possible. As a current motorcycle- and past e-bike- and bicycle-commuter, I'm clearly less concerned about my own safety. I like weird things in general, dislike supporting foreign wars, think that limiting CO2 output is probably a good thing, and crave smoothness and quietness, so an EV of some sort is indicated. On the other hand, I'd like uncontested street-legality, a roof over my head, a full windshield in front of me, and a windshield wiper for said windshield, so weird Bug-E-type contraptions, e-bikes, and e-motorcycles are all out. So, too, are standard Low Speed Vehicles, because their mandated maximum speed of 25 mph just doesn't seem that useful in real-world traffic, let alone entertaining.

In short, I want an intermediate type of vehicle, something akin to a European quadricycle, perhaps.

This isn't a thread to lament about the lack of a such a US street-legal class of vehicle, though: The states of Washington, Rhode Island, Texas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Oregon, and Montana have stepped into the national lead by defining a distinct subclass of LSVs, Medium Speed Vehicles, that are allowed a much more reasonable (imo) 35 mph maximum speed! This is directly relevant to my interests, as I and my wife are moving back to Seattle in just over a year.

The Washington State Patrol has a nice summary page of the requirements for both NEVs and MSVs, which draws its information from Washington State RCW 46.04.295, 46.61.723, and 46.04.320 in turn, and which I'll inline below.

So what MSV options exist with 35 mph capability, which in turn implies the existence of either a roll cage or a "crush-proof body" per the WSP above? How much do these vehicles cost? What are their powertrain specs? What is their availability? I'm honestly unsure of the answers to any of these questions, so will attempt to address them in following posts in this very thread.

 

[Toshi]

I'm using Wikipedia's list of NEV manufacturers as a starting point, and then will look into each to see whether a special 35 mph limit model is available.

The starting list:

GEM, a subsidiary of Polaris, is the biggest name: http://www.polaris.com/en-us/gem-electric-car/Pages/Home.aspx?WT.mc_id=6EF20F84-A90F-E111-AB93-0050569A00BC&WT.mc_ev=Direct
Polaris itself makes some EVs under its own brand: http://www.polaris.com/en-us/polaris-defense/2011/Electric/Polaris-EV-LSV/Pages/Overview.aspx
Kurrent: http://www.getkurrent.com/
Miles: http://www.milesev.com/
GreenTech: http://www.wmgta.com/en/

(The rest on the list seem to be bankrupt, concepts, vaporware/ZENN, or are not available in the US. I excluded ZAP for being scammers. This is not to say that the above necessarily are fiscally sound companies or that their models are available here, either…)

 

[Punx0r]

I don't know if they're any good, but the G-Whizz is fairly popular in London.

I've no idea if they're widely available in the U.S. but according to wikipedia the car was a joint venture with a U.S. company.

http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/lovegwiz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA

 

[dnmun]

if you can find a ZENN for sale then try that. i would convert it to using some of the big A123 packs people are getting from the victpower people.

i bet they would fit right where the big SLA packs would ride.

i think the ZENN used two sizes of the body, i think by matra in france, the CR maybe? i like them for size and they haul ass in traffic. i could not keep up with one i followed here.

 

[Toshi]

GEM e2: product page or flash presentation

- About $12k when outfitted with hard doors.
- 6 x 12 V 135 Ah SLA batteries per the second link above, FAQ section, so that's 9.7 kWh of juice. Limp-home is activated at 25% SOC, though, so round that down in practice quite a lot.
- 3.72 kW/5 hp motor standard, 7 hp upgrade motor available. No 35 mph limiter option, at least per the website, though, although at least one California outfit modifies the controller (illegally! as they're not a MSV state) for claimed 32-35 mph cruising
- 522 kg
- 50 km claimed range

My impression is that this is much, much less of a car than 1/3rd of a Leaf, for what that's worth. The $2k doors really jack up the price and probably add approximately 0 structural integrity, as they're ABS. Perhaps it'd be more appealing for $9k stripped down. It's also disappointing that the batteries are SLA (AGM "upgrade" available, fwiw, but nothing NiMH or Li-X in sight).

 

[Toshi]

Polaris EV LSV: Consumer site, consumer dealer site, government procurement dealer site

- $12k if you're a civilian, or $7.4k if you're the General Services Administration (!), but that's before adding the optional glass windshield + wiper, steel roof, and steel cab rear panel
- 30 hp AC induction motor
- 48 V of lead-acid, 11.7 kWh nominal capacity
- Selectable 4WD! and 10" of ground clearance
- Independent suspension all around, 8" up front, 9" in the rear
- 4 wheel disc brakes
- 795 kg
- Claimed range "up to 50 miles"

My impression is that this is a MUCH more impressive machine from a hardware perspective than the GEM e2 above. 30 hp >> 7 hp > 5 hp, plus 4WD (!), good suspension and ground clearance, 4 wheel discs, etc. Given that healthy hp figure then it should definitely be possible in theory to uncork it from 25 mph limited operation to 35 mph limited operation.

 

[Toshi]

American Electric Kurrent: http://www.getkurrent.com/

- "Starting at $9,800 USD" is posted on their website, but I'm very leery given that that's MSRP for a 2007 model…
- From the FAQ, "Kurrent is approved to drive up to 35 miles per hour"
- 4.1 kW electric motor running off of a 4s setup of 12 V SLA of indeterminate capacity
- 35-40 mile range claimed

My impression is that American Electric went bankrupt in 2007. Their press materials all date from then, and a dealer reputed to carry them makes no mention of them whatsoever.

 

[Toshi]

Miles ZX40S Advanced Design. Flash corporate site or PDF spec sheet

- It looks like a "real" car, since it's a Chinese-built Daihatsu Move with low-tech EV innards
- $20k (!) per that same article. Yikes.
- 10 hp rated/35 hp peak brushless 3-phase AC induction motor driven by a Curtis controller
- 6s configuration of 12 V 150 Ah AGM batteries, or 10.8 kWh nominal
- 1.2 kW Delta Q charger
- 2350 lb curb weight

Although I couldn't find supporting articles for Miles (as with the Kurrent above), my strong suspicion is that Miles is no longer selling vehicles in the US market, if it indeed remains solvent. The Miles EV website lists no dealers, and I found nothing newer than 2009 inventory at the website of their purported Pacific NW dealer.

In any case, $20k seems much too dear for a 25 mph-limited Kei car with 10.8 kWh of lead acid, especially in an era when Nissan will sell you a Leaf for ~$26k after the tax credit that's infinitely more capable. Perhaps that's why they're not on sale anymore…

 

[Toshi]

For comparison purposes, $20k (pre-tax credit, which is only for non-LSVs afaik) will buy you a tax-credit eligible but sans warranty (due to Th!nk's relatively recent bankruptcy) 2011 Th!nk City from Green Wheels Chicago. Specs here.

- $36k initial published price, revised up to $41k after the pixie dust didn't bring down costs, then revised downward to $20k when Th!nk went bankrupt
- Not an LSV, but rather a full-fledged passenger car, albeit one without any warranty support now.
- 34 kW (46 hp) nominal, 37 kW peak motor
- Either 24 kWh of NaAlCl4 or 23 kWh of lithium
- 2290 lb curb weight
- 70 mph top speed
- 100 mile claimed range

Bankruptcy's a bitch, eh? The $41k Th!nk City and the $33k Wheego Whip simply have no place in the market as slow-full-speed vehicles when the Nissan Leaf--hell, even the otherwise pitiful Mitsubishi iMiEV--outshine them at the same price point.

I'm not even sure I'd buy a Th!nk for $20k as its bargain-basement price comes because it has absolutely zilch in terms of warranty support post-bankruptcy, let alone local factory technical support. Caveat emptor.

 

[Toshi]

Finally, GreenTech seems to be peddling vaporware, nothing more. http://www.wmgta.com/en/products/mycar-nev

Manufactured in Mississippi, MyCar will be sold both in the US and around the world. Keep on the look-out for MyCar availability in your area.

Will be sold… uh huh. I won't stay up late waiting for it to become available, that's for sure.

Even though it sounds ok on paper (45 mph capability for Europe, so definitely possible to dial it up to 35 mph for MSV use) it's not available, not for sale, not supported, and for all intents and purposes might as well not exist. Such is the NEV market as a whole, or so it seems, with the exception of Polaris's aimed-at-the-military EV LSV offering.

 

[ProDigit]

would those:
1 to 2 persons,
3 or 4 wheeled,
solar powered or not, prototype driving raindrop cars qualify?

Provided they would be equipped with all the necessary stuff like lights, rollover cage, etc...; and limited to the 35mpH speed?



LOL:

LOL2, 1 person porche:

electric past:

 

[dogman dan]

Hooray for those states that allow a 35 mph vehicle class. 25 is just too slow except for really close to the house use, like codo to the golf clubhouse. Go further, and you encounter 45 mph roads illegal to drive on.

In most states, the only option is the motorcycle route. Then, because of three wheels, you could use a ZAP. 4 wheels and 35 mph shoud be safer, at least for tip over. It's why three wheel golf carts are rare now.

 

[Toshi]

The problem is that I didn't find a single non-vaporware non-bankrupt-parent-company option capable of 35 mph out of the box.

Colorado has a 45 mph MSV law on the books, btw, but it's not valid until NHTSA decides to make safety standards for 45 mph vehicles, which is probably not forthcoming any time soon. :lol:

http://www.iihs.org/laws/mediumspeedvehicles.aspx

 

[dogman dan]

So the Zap is history too? It was about the best of a poor lot. Gems and such can be hot rodded to 35 though.

 

[Toshi]

So the Zap is history too? It was about the best of a poor lot. Gems and such can be hot rodded to 35 though.

I don't trust anything to which Zap attaches their name after hearing many an anecdote and that Wired exposé.

 

[Toshi]

Polaris EV LSV

Given that healthy hp figure then it should definitely be possible in theory to uncork it from 25 mph limited operation to 35 mph limited operation.

I did some digging and am pleased with what I discovered:

1) The motor controller is a Sevcon Gen4 650A 48V unit: http://www.evalbum.com/3259

2) Sevcon touts the availability of Windows software (and a less capable handheld unit) to configure controller operation parameters: http://www.sevcon.com/media/2104/gen4_flyer_web.pdf

3) Said Sevcon configuration software is available for sale. Not cheap at $850, as it's aimed at OEMs developing their setup, no doubt, but available for sale nonetheless: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sevcon-gen4-pc-based-programming-kit.html

4) Programming the Sevcon would be non-trivial, but at least it's documented. Section 6-17 of the manual covers speed control modes, implying that one could change those parameters! It's possible tht Polaris has locked down their configuration, but buying a fresh Sevcon Gen4 controller would take care of that in the worst case. The manual: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/Gen4_Product_Manual_V3.0.pdf

5) A company called Flux Power sells lithium (presumably LiFePO4) upgrade kits for the Ranger EV, which would therefore slot right into the EV LSV! Max offered capacity is 19.2 kWh, which would be a huge step up from the 11.7 kWh of lead-acid (of which maybe 8 kWh would be useful). Hell, 19.2 kWh is in Mitsubishi iMiEV territory and within spitting distance of the Leaf! There are also smaller packs available. Any way one cuts it they'd be better, if not cheaper, and it'd be a relief knowing that it's not a lead-acid dead end. http://ev.sae.org/article/9540 is the press release and here is a dealer: http://dukesgaragellc.com/ev-parts-service/ev-parts-kits/

The only question is whether it'd be encroaching on Leaf price range after all these upgrades to bring it to 35 mph lithium spec. Recall that LSVs are only eligible for a 10% purchase price tax credit as opposed to the $7500 for the Leaf and its ilk. I wouldnt tackle any off road trails in a Leaf, on the other hand...

 

[Toshi]

The only question is whether it'd be encroaching on Leaf price range after all these upgrades to bring it to 35 mph lithium spec. Recall that LSVs are only eligible for a 10% purchase price tax credit as opposed to the $7500 for the Leaf and its ilk. I wouldnt tackle any off road trails in a Leaf, on the other hand...

Math time:

$12k MSRP
- 10% Federal LSV EV tax credit
+ $850 for the controller software
+ est. $10k (!) for a 9.6 kWh lithium upgrade (based off of reported $7k prices for the 8 kWh pack)

= $23.5k, with the net result being a street legal 35 mph, 30 mile realistic range EV, albeit one with 10" of ground clearance 8"/9" of suspension travel, and 4WD with lockable diffs. That's a pricey toy, and frankly a crappy commuter given the speed, limitation to 35 mph roads, lack of doors (although a roof and rear cabin panel are available), and associated lack of interior climate control.

 

[thepronghorn]

23K is about what our Leaf ended up costing after tax benefits and employer incentives.

so yeah, you're very much encroaching on the price range of a Leaf, but who knows how many tax benefits/etc. you will have in a couple of years

 

[ProDigit]

23K is about what our Leaf ended up costing after tax benefits and employer incentives.

so yeah, you're very much encroaching on the price range of a Leaf, but who knows how many tax benefits/etc. you will have in a couple of years

That, and the risk of:
-theft,
-breakdowns or car accidents,
-battery failure
-Increased prices of Lithium
-decreased government incentives;
Makes it a less interesting buy.

You'd think if they would create a car with a $150 lawnmower engine, and a $1500 electric motor, the prices would not have to be so high...
Perhaps they charge 50% just for the battery.

The good thing is, the more people buy now, the more investment there'll be in electric cars, the more competition, and usually that goes together with the more technological advances; so batteries still will become cheaper, electric cars will be manufactured more economical, engines and motors more fine tuned (less excessive power, longer mileage). I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it yet.
Give or take another 5 or 10 years, and cars like this will become affordable, and unlike the toyota prius, will be beneficial in mileage (the prius is half electric, double the price of the yaris, but only has 10 more mpg).

 

[Toshi]

Give or take another 5 or 10 years, and cars like this will become affordable, and unlike the toyota prius, will be beneficial in mileage (the prius is half electric, double the price of the yaris, but only has 10 more mpg).

This is not quite true. The Yaris slushbox (to compare to the Prius's CVT) gets 32 mpg combined, with the stick shift only 1 mpg higher. The Prius gets 50 mpg combined. Admittedly that 18 mpg difference in mpg doesn't yield a huge savings in gas since 32 mpg is already quite good--see mpgillusion.com--but the difference between a Yaris's and a Prius's fuel economy is not "10 more mpg" as you state.

They're also not the same car. My wife's 2006 Prius, with its leather seats and steering wheel, JBL stereo, Bluetooth, built in navi, HID headlamps + foglights, unique open dashboard layout, and general low levels of NVH thanks to being a hybrid, is a much nicer car to be in than a bargain-basement econobox. I'd know, as she used to have a Corolla, I used to have a Fit, and I test drove the Yaris and Versa a few years back. The Prius is also significantly larger inside, with a passenger volume of 93.7 cu ft. for 2010+ model or 96 cu ft. for the prior generation that my wife has vs. 85.1 cubes for the Yaris 5-door and 84.4 for the 3-door.

If one's object is to merely save money then none of these electric or hybrid cars make a whit of sense. Hell, no car of any kind makes sense if one is truly a skinflint. The cheapest route to get from point A to point B will be to pedal-bicycle everywhere on a $40 craigslist special, or to walk about town shod with a pair of ratty shoes from Goodwill. Everything above that is a luxury to some degree...

 

[Lebowski]

it's a pity the 45 km/h Twizy is not sold in the US...
A Piaggio APE would also be perfect for an EV conversion.

 

[Toshi]

it's a pity the 45 km/h Twizy is not sold in the US...
A Piaggio APE would also be perfect for an EV conversion.

The Twizy is classed as a quadricycle, iirc. No true- or even close-to-equivalent class exists in the US, with the (unpopulated, as I found out in this thread) 35 mph MSV class the closest...

 

[Toshi]

A new contender, either for this MSV thread or the vaporware thread in a year or two:

MyCar.

http://www.introducingmycar.com/
http://www.introducingmycar.com/#options
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/mycar-an-electric-runabout-with-bipartisan-support/

$15.5k (lead) or $18k (lithium) city runabout, limited to 25 mph although capable of 45 mph supposedly (curable by software update for 35 mph states?). Plant in MS. Haley Barbour, Clintons on board. Pack sizes of 7, 15, and 23 kWh, with the price probably for the smallest version. 8 kW of motor on the lithium versions.

IIRC from earlier in this thread LSVs/MSVs don't qualify for the up-to-$7.5k tax credit (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=219867,00.html) so instead it'd be a flat 10% off the top.

Overall impression: Meh. If lead is good enough then the Polaris EV LSV would be its match.

 

[andrew.box]

Too bad this is the state of things, it would be nice to see some truly decent 35 mph medium range vehicles available in the $15-19k range. But given that's pretty much how much a large Li-x battery pack costs, maybe not a realistic expectation at this point.