Melting Snowflakes

[scianiac]

I do want to keep talking about how things are changing but something just happened a day ago that I think is relevant to people leaving the forum. I got an email from spudfiles, a forum I haven't been on in probably a decade. Just a random email out of the blue from the admin being like, we're still around, I know hobbies change but hey maybe you want to come back and look around. It did get me to go look around, unfortunately it's not doing so hot and I have too many other hobbies to get back into building air cannons but I wonder how effective such an email is.

Like hobbies are weird in that some people are still into them but not enough to be on a forum, you may still have ebikes and use them all the time but maybe don't follow development so some may take just a little push to get back into tinkering.

Like generally I'm against out of the blue emails but just as a one shot email, if someone hasn't logged in a long time we (well nep) sends a friendly reminder email. I expect the conversion won't be great but even a few people coming back and being reminded that we both still exist and are still a nice place to hang out, unlike much of the rest of the internet. To steal an idea from another forum it could also include like the 10 most popular/interesting threads from the last year. As in threads sorted by activity excluding news, arguing, off topic, etc.

 

[E-HP]

I think I may have mentioned this before with respect to the changing nature of questions that we get on ES. It reflects the fact that ES was primarily a DIY community, before factory ebikes became more abundant, and the subforums are geared toward DIY. I know at least one subforum, Ebikes Electronics Hacking was created, that somewhat supports factory bikes, but it might be time to add at least a couple of subforums to better organize the content given the shift.
Something like Factory Ebike Troubleshooting, or Factory Ebike Upgrading/Modding could help keep the related content in a place where it's more easily accessed, rather than housed with mainly DIY issues in the Ebike Technical or Ebike Troubleshooting subforums. They would be more focused on the type of questions that come up or situations and challenges more unique to factory bikes or factory ebike conversions. Once the content is segregated, will be easier to identify the more common issues to allow creation of stickies or KB entries that address them.

 

[neptronix]

I'm open to it.

I feel cautious about catering to that crowd. Our aesthetic would need to be altered to strongly indicate we are a DIY focused website so that we don't gradually become electricbikereport's forums. Our angle would be right to repair, hot rodder, and hacker friendliness. In the same vein that endless sphere was & still is with DIY.

And you're right, it would help sort the existing posts better.

 

[neptronix]

I do want to keep talking about how things are changing but something just happened a day ago that I think is relevant to people leaving the forum. I got an email from spudfiles, a forum I haven't been on in probably a decade. Just a random email out of the blue from the admin being like, we're still around, I know hobbies change but hey maybe you want to come back and look around. It did get me to go look around, unfortunately it's not doing so hot and I have too many other hobbies to get back into building air cannons but I wonder how effective such an email is.

Like hobbies are weird in that some people are still into them but not enough to be on a forum, you may still have ebikes and use them all the time but maybe don't follow development so some may take just a little push to get back into tinkering.

I set the system to email people a lot less than the stock configuration.
The system does send an email if you haven't been active for 30 days, once a month, for up to 3 months.
Just now i modified this to 6 months, but i don't want to bug people more than that.

 

[scianiac]

I set the system to email people a lot less than the stock configuration.
The system does send an email if you haven't been active for 30 days, once a month, for up to 3 months.
Just now i modified this to 6 months, but i don't want to bug people more than that.

Guess I haven't been inactive enough to ever get one. I'm in favor of less emails even if that was every other month for 6 months if that's an easy setting. But I still wonder about a one time email for anybody who was active, so had a good post count and hasn't logged in for over 3 years or 5 years or whatever.

 

[Papa]

The fun'n games of DIY electronics are rapidly coming to an end... like it or not.

I don't think this is true at all, I think they are just changing.

I don't doubt there will likely be hacking 'attempts' for the foreseeable future, but the success rate will undoubtedly diminish... as has verifiably been the case for years now.

As someone who would butcher, dissect, jury-rig, red-necked nearly anything 30 years ago, I either don't posses the necessary wisdom required now, or I am simply bored silly screwing with much of today's 'state-of-the art', throw-away electronics. The un-potting of PCB's, swapping micro components so tiny you need microscope, and the sophisticated programming that requires a fresh PHD in electrical engineering is no longer on my to-do list anymore. I'll harvest the PM's... and the rest hits the trash bucket. I'll ride what I currently own... and when it dies and refuses my tinkering, I'll do without. And yes... even my phone and laptop isn't immune.

 

[E-HP]

Here’s ChatGPT’s take on the heavyweights of Endless Sphere. Of course if you ask the same question 5 times you’ll get five slightly different answers, the a lot of names come up consistently. What’s interesting is that so many folks on the larger list are not very active today.

Confidence: Medium-High

Known facts

• Endless Sphere has been active since 2006 and has produced several contributors whose posts shaped the DIY e-bike and EV community well beyond the forum itself.
• Several members accumulated tens of thousands of posts and became recognized experts in specific technical areas.

If by “heavyweights” you mean members whose technical influence, post volume, and long-term impact were exceptional, my list would be:

Tier 1 – Forum Legends

• Justin Lemire-Elmore (Justin)
  • Founder of Grin Technologies
  • Cycle Analyst, torque arms, motor testing, battery and system engineering.
  • Probably the most influential bridge between hobbyist and professional e-bike engineering.
• Liveforphysics (Luke)
  • Known for pushing performance limits of motors, batteries, and controllers.
  • Famous for real-world testing rather than theory alone.
  • Frequently challenged conventional wisdom with data.
• Amberwolf
  • Extraordinary troubleshooting contributor.
  • Known for detailed, methodical answers and documentation.
  • One of the highest post-count technical contributors and later an administrator.
• Chalo
  • Bicycle engineering, wheelbuilding, frame design, and practical transportation.
  • Often controversial in tone but highly respected for technical rigor.
  • Entire threads have discussed how forum quality changed when he was absent.

Tier 2 – Major Technical Contributors

• Dogman Dan
  • Perhaps the most prolific practical e-bike advisor.
  • Helped countless newcomers choose components and avoid mistakes.
  • Massive posting volume and broad experience.
• Methods
  • Advanced controller and high-power system work.
  • Respected for deep electrical and power electronics knowledge.
• John in CR
  • Practical engineering and reliability-focused perspectives.
  • Often contributed detailed real-world experience.
• Fechter
  • Electronics, BMS design, troubleshooting, and technical moderation.
  • One of the early core technical members.
• Doctorbass
  • Battery testing and high-power EV experimentation.
  • One of the most recognizable early contributors.

Tier 3 – Highly Influential Specialists

• JohnRobHolmes
  • Motor and drivetrain development.
• Recumpence
  • Custom drive systems and fabrication.
• Alan B
  • Technical analysis and power systems.
• MadRhino
  • Off-road and MTB-focused expertise.
• Spinningmagnets
  • Builder, educator, and prolific writer who helped make technical topics accessible.
• Dnmun
  • Battery and lithium-pack discussions.
• Ypedal
  • Longtime contributor and practical builder.

If I had to name the “Mount Rushmore” of Endless Sphere

1. Justin Lemire-Elmore
2. Liveforphysics
3. Amberwolf
4. Chalo

Why these four?

• Justin: engineering influence on the entire industry.
• Liveforphysics: performance and testing.
• Amberwolf: troubleshooting and knowledge preservation.
• Chalo: bicycle engineering and critical analysis.

=====================
Other experts identified in subsequent iterations:

• Miles – Deep technical knowledge of motors, power electronics, and EV design.
• Neptronix – Respected for battery, controller, and electronics expertise. Long-time technical contributor and administrator.
• Drunkskunk – Long-time contributor with substantial technical and fabrication experience.
• teklektik – Highly regarded for Cycle Analyst documentation and technical guides

 

[OlderGiantFan]

In my experience on forums, 20 years worth, they all go south in the end, some to a greater degree than others. The reasons are not always obvious either and in many cases are best thought of as normal human cycles. Look at the Boy Scouts, or the Rotary clubs, or bowling, or any human institution that's been going for a long time. Those rotary clubs are all just composed of 80 year old men now, no one want's any part of civic duty, same with the others. These associations above are what, 80~100 years old? But on the internet 20 years is a long time. I think it's just a case of be happy with what you've got and don't be surprised that things have degraded.

As for this place, how many new members come in after buying a Chinese made e-bike and are looking for an impossible quick fix? It's probably the vast majority hey. Those people are unlikely to ever build so most won't find any ongoing value here. Even I'm just a black box builder, buy a bike, fit the out of the box BBS motor, and ride it with no real interest in programming or tweaking etc. Build a battery! Ha, surely you jest? I probably shouldn't even be here but I wanted to do it right and without your help that would have been impossible. I also like to learn and keep abreast of the innovations. This place is a bit like the Suzuki 4x4 forums. Back in the day it was all mods and offroad stuff and maintenance but now those cars don't have 4x4 and no one services them hardly either. A bit like I said, this forum is obviously much more active with builds and maintenance, and will probably always be so. But dedicated new members? They will likely be scarcer as time passes.

 

[99t4]

There's a new player in town.

I'm thinking that a lot of what would have been in the past new forum members, are now impatiently bypassing the whole forum experience and proceeding directly to ask AI. Instant gratification, without the formalities of joining a forum, then waiting around for answers, discussing/disputing the answers, being asked to clarify or provide photos, having to behave considerately, etc.

Sometimes one joins the forum for help only after getting a bum AI generated answer.

 

[neptronix]

See, i don't know about that.

Here's why:
1) Most websites have taken a 50% hit due to AI summaries in search, forums included. We are not the only site shrinking. Here's a good article about that: Google AI Overviews: How to Recover Lost Website Traffic.

The reason is AI is answering the question, removing the interest in signing up and ask.
However, this doesn't make sites like these any less important. AI has no good answers to provide without text to train on. It means that redundancy of questions is going to go down. As long as google keeps providing citations to our site, we're okay with it.

2) We have some great new people here in the last couple years. A lot of them are working on controllers/batteries. Yeah, they are in lower numbers, and i think that's because small EVs have finally matured ( genius goes where it's needed, less genius is needed here )

3) We are basically in a recession and this hobby is kinda expensive, the market for bicycles and ebikes is a bloodbath, and we're still in a hangover from covid excess period.

4) There is a legal chilling effect going on, which may be reducing interest in a certain type of evehicle this site's been strong on. Note this varies by geography a lot.

It's basically a perfect storm, but storms pass, and ES will continue to adapt. Maybe in a few years, ebikes are a smaller part of our site and emotos become more popular. What's important is that the spirit remains.

One last thing. Communities are what people make them.

Over the years, we get a lot of thanks for our community. We have a long term dedicated fan base still.
Here are some recent notes, from our knowledgebase fundraiser:



Despite these headwinds, we are doing as good as a mostly ebike-centric forum can

 

[neptronix]

Sometimes one joins the forum for help only after getting a bum AI generated answer.

I've noticed that, and it's kinda funny.
AI is pretty bad at providing answers about ebikes in general.

Well it's called Artificial Intelligence for a reason!

 

[E-HP]

I've noticed that, and it's kinda funny.
AI is pretty bad at providing answers about ebikes in general.

Well it's called Artificial Intelligence for a reason!

For tasks that don't require intelligence, it can sort of capture the gist of what it's consuming. I asked Ai to summarize, by year, the general topics of discussion on ES has been, to see if the trend is what I've noticed, reading older and newer posts over the years:

Period	Dominant discussion topics
2006–2008	DIY hub motor conversions, brushed vs. brushless motors, lead-acid and NiMH batteries, early lithium packs, motor controllers, basic electronics, first home-built e-bikes. Community knowledge sharing dominated because commercial e-bikes were rare.
2009–2011	Lithium battery experimentation (LiFePO₄, LiPo), battery management systems, high-power builds, controller modifications, regenerative braking, custom fabrication, speed records, reliability improvements. Forum also discussed ownership transition and preservation of community knowledge.
2012–2014	More sophisticated battery pack construction, welding techniques, Cycle Analyst instrumentation, field-oriented control concepts, mid-drive experiments, cargo bikes, commuter reliability, electric motorcycles, solar charging, electric boats and other EV projects. Commercial kits became more common but DIY remained central.
2015–2017	Explosion of mid-drive systems (especially Bafang), fat bikes, mountain e-bikes, 18650 cell testing, battery safety, torque sensing, custom firmware, lightweight performance builds, comparison of Chinese manufacturers, open-source controller projects. Historical reflection on the DIY movement also appeared.
2018–2020	Commercial e-bike reviews increased alongside continued DIY work. Topics expanded to include belt drives, internally geared hubs, battery longevity, suspension tuning, firmware hacking, high-voltage systems, legal regulations, and forum usability improvements.
2021–2022	Greater emphasis on forum governance, moderation policies, preserving archived content, migration from phpBB to XenForo, reorganizing technical categories, while technical discussions continued around batteries, motors, controllers, and repairs. Off-topic discussions were intentionally reduced.
2023–present	Mature technical ecosystem: battery diagnostics, repair and refurbishment, custom controller firmware (FOC/VESC), high-efficiency commuter builds, cargo and utility bikes, electric motorcycles, sourcing replacement parts, long-term reliability, safety, and adapting older DIY builds to newer components. Community discussions increasingly focus on maintaining accumulated knowledge rather than discovering entirely new technologies.

It's not too far off, if you've been reading here a while. It's really the commercial ebikes that seem to be driving the changes. When I first got interested, there were only a small handful of commercial ebikes, and they were actually trying to build real brand names with their products and support, not just trying to throw a bunch of fake stats around to make their one of a thousand brands stand out from the others; but DIY was still the way to go.

 

[E-HP]

When I was in high school, there was still the tradition of washing and waxing your car, and taking it downtown on a Friday or Saturday night to go cruising down the boulevard. You either parked on the side and watched, or cruised around a loop, but everyone had a great time doing something to simple. That was a relic of the 50's, and lasted for decades, and I believe still occurs in some rural communities, and in music, lyrics reflecting the activity as old memories.
Today, it's been replaced by illegally blocking off intersections to do burnouts for an hour, or until someone gets shot. "Side shows"

DIY ebiking faces an uncertain future. I believe that at least 90% of all the ebikes I see today are now illegal under the recently passed laws in my state, but without enforcement anywhere in the cycle, so the now illegal factory bikes are still being sold and buyers probably don't even know they are "illegal". Where do DIY ebikes land in this environment? At some point there'll be enforcement; or not. Uncertain.

Over the last several years, I've had a lot of fun building and riding. Thousands of miles of carefree relaxation. It's more crowded now, but I can still enjoy riding without looking over my shoulder to see if some cop or Karen is scrutinizing my bike. At the same time, I wonder how long that will last.
Teens gangs on ebikes are taking on the side show mentality, taking over streets and trails. There's bound to be even more laws coming, especially if you're unfortunate enough to live in, or are a suburb of a large city. I fear carefree riding on my DIY rig will become a thing of the past.

Right now, my Leaf hub ebike is on my patio, in pieces. This may be the last iteration of my econ-o-ebike, and I'm deciding whether to stick with the frame that I love, or possibly moving to a cargo bike. In either case, some simplification and more stealth are becoming more important factor for me. Sadly or luckily, like with cruising, I can still be happy that I caught the tail end of the DIY ebike era; and enjoyed being part of the ES "Rotary Club".



Blast from the past, when a high powered ebike was a build, starting with a bicycle, and was rather than an assembly, starting with a stealth bomber frame and throwing parts on it.

 

[neptronix]

ES, and most other 2-wheel centric communities were built on hot rodding.
I'd say we still are, it's just a lot less overt.
There's also less emphasis on proving the superiority of the electric motor as a drivetrain. At this point, it's unnecessary blows on a dead horse.

You had to be there!

As for ebikes, laws are stricter, but enforcement remains spotty and difficult to achieve by government. Less hot bikes are still flying under the radar. The coasts of the USA, Australia, and parts of Europe are difficult to own a proper ebike, but for the rest of the world, you can still get away with a lot because you're too small of a problem to matter.

Of course this is up to your risk tolerance.
I have noticed more lower speed builds on here as of late. And that's cool, too.

If there is a reason i spend less time on ES, it's due to a slowdown in technology improvement over the last few years. I believe that is a function of the economic downturn and trade wars, vs a loss of interest on the part of innovators or consumers.
Yet there is so much innovation that is still possible. So i think 2 wheelers, fast or not, will be relevant for some time. Just nowhere near as hot.

 

[scianiac]

I wonder if custom and modded ebike culture will just roughly follow the path of cars. I mean custom cars have been around a loooong time now and have been through a lot of phases, included many past and current legal challenges. I expect we'll end up somewhere in the same place in terms of legality and popularity (popularity as a percentage of the small ev user base). I think that means lots of things won't be legal and we'll do them anyway or find loopholes as is the case with custom cars. There will be plenty of outlaws that cause legal and cultural issues but as those people grow older they change and so does the culture.

Just a theory, all these kids now riding e-motos illegally, they get a little older and now they need a job and they want to ride that bike to their job and somebody has found a way to more easily register an E-moto and they go and get legit and now just ride it around with their friends in a much more responsible manner because now they have responsibilities. Then they get a little older and have more income and they want to spend that on stuff they couldn't buy as a kid and that's lots of e-moto upgrade parts. A story as old as time. And just like any new technology like this we see the stress now because the adoption rate is so high but that tapers off and things work themselves out, maybe not the ideal we way would like but probably well enough.

 

[OlderGiantFan]

For me, I, like several others, have been trying to fill the shoes of members who have left, at least partly. My DIY FAQ and Trouble Shooting stickies are minor compared to what long term members have contributed over time, but I do feel it's necessary, at least with respect to how forums used to be. I recognize, these are old school values, and that's not how we live today, so maybe that's why people move on. Or, maybe I just had it wrong all along; I look at Justin's mission and constitution, and can't tell, but on another recent thread regarding the forum and ChatGPT, Ai posed an interesting question, what really is the goal of this forum? I thought I knew, but now I don't know.

What's Our Goal??

I would hazard to suggest it's the same as the snowflake's, to find answers to our problems. But while the snowflakes were raised with baby on board stickers and spent the first 20 years of their life being told "they are special", many of us 'older' members had a very different upbringing. We were taught to be respectful to others, to exercise restraint, to be courteous, and not just as a thin veneer to get what we want but out of general deference to others. This allows us to build genuine community and I think that's what keeps us coming back after our questions are answered.

Quite frankly I don't want anything to do with those snowflakes, and that includes family members too. When I watch a youtube and all I see is their face I click off. Many think they are superstars just for making an average vid? Personally if I was making instructional vids the last thing I would do is put my face all over the web, but many are building an image because they are chasing $$$, which only muddies the water because then they recommend stuff based on commissions not applicability. I run car grade synthetic motor oil in all my high performance motorcycles but most YTs will try to convince me I need a 'bike specific' oil like Motol at a much higher price. No thanks, all the bike mechanics I have ever spoken to dismissed that as pointless.