Mobipus Controllers

[amberwolf]

You can't even compare this to software no matter what application. Because here you bought a piece of hardware. And there is no mentioning of such limitations beforehand. If your software stops updating you can choose to run as is. If you can't make changes to to vital part of software that is needed for the hardware to run correctly then the 1000 $ spend on the hardware is wasted. Gone.

In the case of the software I have, I'm not talking about lack of updates, I'm talking about being able to even install it or run it at all. So it is exactly the same as not being able to use a piece of hardware (and the cost can be the same or greater).

FWIW, it doesn't even matter if they charge for the "time slot" code or not--simply requiring anything that requires anything outside what the customer gets with the controller to change it is enough to be a future problem.

 

[romelec]

Here are the differnet parameters for each level, from the documentation I took from SamD website a few months ago.
In the files there was also a TeamViewer installer, why do they want to take remote control of the PC running the software ?


The asterisk is not defined in the spec but I guess the access level is configurable, so a user access for regen might be possible.

For direct sales that they want to do, they need to provide ~~at least an unlimited distributor access (with brake & regen)~~ a full access and of course without internet requirement.

 

[macribs]

I totally agrre AW. There ain't no sure tomorrow as long as they continue to use this practice. Controller can be a dead brick before winter is over and all your hard earned money sunk into the controller will be lost.

 

[ossivirt]

there was also a TeamViewer installer, why do they want to take remote control of the PC running the software ?

For direct sales that they want to do, they need to provide at least an unlimited distributor access (with brake & regen) and of course without internet requirement.

TeamViewer is used for troubleshooting since the software does not have support for that. I think it has only two things that use internet connection.. Software update and firmware update. Program itself works just fine offline.

I can't speak for anyone else but I was given distributor password

 

[Samd]

Hi all,
those prior posts seemed to escalate a bit too quickly and make a lot of assumptions. I think we can all do better.

A reminder that these were OEM controllers to rival the difficult-to-program Sevcon. The reason for disabling regen on shipping is simple - so no one with moderate experience exceeds pack voltage with a massive spike on their first regen event. I didnt agree with mobipus first also. But now I get it. "With 40 kilowatts comes great responsibility." Or perhaps Liability would be a better word.

300 odd parameters and 20 different groupings isn't something you want a second builder tinkering with. But like most controllers it'll run most things straight out of the box. But we all have our variations on what we like.

Thanks for being reasonable Romelec and posting that table. And you too Willow for being the voice of reason also.

I can help program, but as Ron pointed out I generally send them out preconfigured for the my customers anyway. I have declined to do this a few times as people bought them elsewhere then expected me to program them for free. It was better to say no than to get into a discussion as to why. I've decided to charge these people for an hour of my time if it happens again, which is about half of what a Sevcon session typically costs. To be fair, I have family I'd rather spend time with.

In the unlikely event that the software stopped updating it wouldn't make your controller unusable anyways - I have no idea where that was coming from.

If these controllers aren't for you that is ok. But I see no reason to dump on them as if they are for nobody. Evidence would seem contrary.

Thanks for the kind writeup too Ron!

 

[Willow]

These are epic controllers. Programming and interface with PC is as easy as it could be, given the complexity of the unit. Setup requires a level of experimentation for the noob obviously, and as Sam said, this could be very dangerous for someone 'tinkering' with stuff when not experienced enough. Would love to really get familiar with them enough to master the setup... and get the screen and dashboard setup on the next bike.

 

[amberwolf]

A reminder that these were OEM controllers to rival the difficult-to-program Sevcon. The reason for disabling regen on shipping is simple - so no one with moderate experience exceeds pack voltage with a massive spike on their first regen event. I didnt agree with mobipus first also. But now I get it. "With 40 kilowatts comes great responsibility." Or perhaps Liability would be a better word.

I dont' see any problem with having stuff an end-user can't access without first asking for a password, or a more advanced version of the software, or something along those lines. There are definitely things you wouldn't want someone without a clue changing in most controller programmings (we've had threads about that sort of thing even for generic stuff, or the BBSxx and LCDx type controllers, where people have gotten them to a problematic point they can't get themselves out of).

The problem I see is when there is a time limit (especially something as ridiculously short as an hour) to be able to change the settings, and then you have to get hold of the factory again if you have to change it again.

In the unlikely event that the software stopped updating it wouldn't make your controller unusable anyways - I have no idea where that was coming from.

It *could* make the controller unusable if a setting you need to change in order to make the controller work for your purpose is one that requires that time-limited access that only the factory can grant, and the factory either refuses to do so for whatever reason, or no longer exists to do so.

That's the only severe problem I was talking about.

The rest of what I was talking about you can see in my previous post:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1427756#p1427756
but it is primarily about the time-limited access causing potential problems in a number of areas.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Early on, I had an intuitive dislike of any restrictions. If I bought a product, I want to do whatever I like with it, even if the company goes out of business the next day. I sincerely understand and appreciate avoiding a product that can be "bricked" by the software timing out.

Also, at the same time...we all want companies to continuously come out with new products that are better and cheaper (which costs R&D money). However...endless-sphere is the place where I personally put 1500W through a 1000W BBSHD. I have never asked for a warranty return on a part I have fried, but we have all read those threads where that has happened.

The user-settable software is already available to anyone who buys a controller from Mobipus, you can continue to change those settings for the rest of your life. The controller is potted against moisture, shock, and vibration damage. It is sine-wave and FOC. Established users have verified its actual wattage capabilities.

I am disappointed that the adjustment of regen is a dealer option, but I certainly understand it. If an ES customer sets the regen to the max, and uses a low C-rate battery? it will not go well, and the customer might publicly crap on Mobipus for something that is actually the users fault.

If you feel that Adaptto, Kelly, Sabvoton, ASI, or "X" is better, please post your experiences and what you liked and disliked, so we can all benefit from your experience.

edit:

The problem I see is when there is a time limit (especially something as ridiculously short as an hour)

How long does it take to re-set the regen level? Also...if anyone who reads this is the type of builder who changes the regen level quite frequently, I agree that you might not want to buy a Mobipus. Just in case they go out of business, or they simply stop allowing changes to the regen settings.

 

[Willow]

Regen has an over-riding off or on in the top level setting... along with a few other settings including voltage calibration. You don't really need to spend more than an hour with these settings unlocked. Regen variables can be adjusted freely when using the standard password for programming... and this can be done at any time through the program setup.

 

[Samd]

True that Willow.

I spend an awful lot of time on ES facebook these days, and barely ever on here.
I'm now reminded of why.

 

[larsb]

I spend an awful lot of time on ES facebook these days, and barely ever on here.
I'm now reminded of why.

So.. What's the difference between here and fb? I think not much, really?

I don't think a hotrodding customer of any kind likes restrictions. If i fry my battery due to poor settings then it's on me, no need for locked settings.

Just settings that can damage the user or controller itself should be locked in a good program. All settings should have a default value to reset to if mr noob (or mr "didn't get a manual") changed them to something unreasonable.

It's pretty basic but most controllers aren't designed like that.If they cost 1000usd then it should be built and programmed well for the user.

 

[Willow]

The Mobipus is made for production vehicles, not the hobby market.

 

[Samd]

Exactly Willow. It's not about damaging the unit, its about killing a script kiddie with a 40kw plasma cloud between their legs.
Thats why Sevcon take the same restrictive programming approach.

The difference between forums is the management of uninformed negative people leaping to hysterics. Facebook ostracises curmudgeons tribally without the need for moderator policing.

 

[larsb]

I understand your point, if you say that all settings that are within the normal scope is unlocked then i am happy and a Mobipus will still be on my wish list

I ask myself what setting that's locked will kill someone? controller should always control within robust boundaries. A logic like "not getting movement for x cycles on higher current --> fault protection" would take care of some cases, there are others off course.

(I'd be happy if someone like Lebowski or any of the other controller builders can give an example with an explanation to the difficulties in such logics)

 

[Ohbse]

Wholeheartedly agree with Samd on this, massively blown out of proportion. It seems the people least likely to purchase have the strongest of opinions and are the most vocal about them :?

Once the Regen feature is enabled you can configure to your heart's content within the bounds of the specifications. This is not a toy and although I too had the same initial reaction to features being locked out, I do understand the reasoning. The alternative is this caliber of controller is entirely unavailable to the irresponsible masses :lol:

I've got a couple hundred hours of use according to the onboard statistics, hitting 180+ battery amps and 350 phase almost every work day. Over that same period of use the year prior I blew up 5 adaptto controllers and two sabvotons, only one of which was my 'fault' in that I knowingly pushed a mini way beyond it's limits. Over those 200 hours it has not exceeded 40 degrees c.

 

[larsb]

Over that same period of use the year prior I blew up 5 adaptto controllers and two sabvoton

Ouch.. I guess that's 3500-4000 USD worth of controllers? What motor(s)?

 

[Ohbse]

Various motors, MXUS, QS v3 205, Cromotor - with the exception of one failure they were all configured well within their defined specifications. I've mentioned a few of them earlier in this thread - I had an adaptto max-e explode violently while the bike sat idle. I've had others die from water ingress, despite being well protected. Others fail at some point between parking up the bike and powering it back on the next morning. I've blown up a few Infineon type controllers years ago from hall sensor shorts caused by crappy crystalyte axles, water ingress, straight up spontaneous explosion while low power cruising.

I've got a plastic crate in my workshop with the majority of my failed ebike components, there's probably a good $6000 USD in total between controllers, BMS's, motors, displays etc. I don't destroy things because I'm a dumbass, they destroy themselves because I actually use them in real world conditions. The combo that I've arrived at now has been flawlessly reliable in the past 12+ months. Cycle analyst, Mobipus controller, QS 205mm with 17" moto rims, Heidenau tires, Magura MT5 brakes, Brooks saddle, 30q battery.

The Mobipus controller is OEM level quality and reliability that's much more accessible than others.

 

[larsb]

I had an adaptto max-e explode violently while the bike sat idle.
... Others fail at some point between parking up the bike and powering it back on the next morning.

Interesting, I've had exactly the same thing happen, two kelly kls7230 died silently when sitting idle. I thought it might be the temp cycling doing it since i ride year round in cold climate. I guess soldering can eventually crack from the temp cycling on bad solder joints, or from poorly designed pcb:s

 

[ElectricGod]

The Mobipus controller is OEM level quality and reliability that's much more accessible than others.

I'm not implying anything about the Mobipus controllers at all.

1. They are potted. AKA 100% non-servicable...which I really don't like!
2. They have not been around long enough to see what kinds of long term reliability they may or may not have.
3. They are "more accessible" which is a good thing. Most FOC controller makers make it hard for DIYers to get their products.
4. See number 3...if they really are "OEM quality" then they will hold up well to DIYers...we will see.

Potting...from the perspective of someone that does electronics repair since the 1970's:

Potting (burying the electronics in soft epoxy) is a great way to make any electronic device un-repairable. If you need to secure some large component, a dab of silicon at that part will do the job. If water incursion is a problem, use conformal or good seals or both. If there is something I've done in more controllers, it's blowing mosfets. Sometimes they die for no obvious reason. Sometimes it's my fault. Electrolytic caps go bad from time to time. Heat is a capacitor killer. It is possible that they may need to be replaced after a while. Electronics fail...it happens. I MOD just about everything. There's always "something" that can be done to an electronic device to enhance it's functionality!!! I could say the same for my car or the kitchen knife I use. About 80% of the time when I blow up a controller, I can fix them. That's becasue usually mosfets blow or some other relatively easy fix can be done. I'm 100% against potted electronics becasue when things break, all I can do is throw it away or spend many hours picking that crap off the board. Conformal serves the exact same purpose as potting and does not keep you from repairing things if needed. Potting is done 100% for the purpose of generating future sales. GRRR!

I like the idea of the Mobipus controllers and these controllers are producing good results so far. Honestly, the potting flat turns me off! I will eventually blow up the controller. That's a foregone conclusion in my mind. If I'm going to drop serious bank on a controller, then when I do break it, I will want to be able to find out if I can fix it again. Potting will make that quite difficult.

I'm seriously looking at getting the biggest model Mobipus makes, but it will set me back Some $1200 and I need 2 of them. There is a pretty good chance I will pop something after a while. Maybe It just died on it's own...it happens. Maybe it's me pushing it hard and I caused the failure. I'll want to find out what my $1200 really went into and why it broke.

Regen limits...lol...don't worry folks...someone will write a work around for this. Hack the firmware...that's my first choice. It's just software and this IS an open source product. You can modify the code base however you want. Once you have done so, please post your work someplace public so that the rest of the world can use what you produce. Who cares if Mobipus voids the warranty for after market firmware. I would have voided the warranty 10 minutes after owning the product anyway. What's more, you might discover a few more watts of usable power. You might discover some software bugs or who knows what in the existing software. I do software testing. I know there is no such thing as perfect software. Good luck to all the coders out there that get involved with hacking the Mobipus product line!!! Please help the rest of the world to void their warranties too. =)

 

[larsb]

Potting is better than coating for both heat dispersion and moisture protection so for many users the potted controller is an advantage.

Who hasn't had a controller die from water damage? 8)

 

[ElectricGod]

Potting is better than coating for both heat dispersion and moisture protection so for many users the potted controller is an advantage.

Who hasn't had a controller die from water damage? 8)

Water damage?
Me? Never...other reasons...well several times... =(
It's soooo easy to seal up a controller so water can't get in. A little silicon caulk goes a long way! Potting is irrelevant for water protection. Conformal is usually more than sufficient protection from water. If your components are getting hot, there's other reasons for that and potting is NOT the answer.

For people (Not me) that can't fix stuff...by all means buy a Mobipus. It's not like they suck...becasue they seem pretty solid and well designed. BUT when they die, replacing a few blown mosfets is waaaaaay cheaper than buying a whole new controller.

 

[macribs]

Don't know how it is with Fet's and other controller components. But from the pc and server world they got different quality on CPU's from the same batch. Maybe it is like that for controller components too? What I am thinking of is that if you buy the higher rated components before putting together a controller, then the less the chances for some freak break down. As Mobipus is OEM maybe they seen very low fail rate with their products, and are confident potting gives more benefits then not potting. So within warranty if you have a failed controller they likely just replace the whole unit.

The potting might be more important for some then for others. Where I live and larsb lives we got harsh winters with snow, rain and plenty of salt being spread onto the roads to prevent icing. And that salty mist and salty ice water that always covers our roads in the winter will penetrate into the weirdest places. So riding in such conditions I think potting is a big win.

If you are die hard DIY for complicated electronics such a controller and prefer to either mod or even repair I can see you got a point. Maybe you can get a custom build unit? One that is not potted? If you wave the warranty it might be easier to get acceptance for an unpotted controller?

 

[ElectricGod]

Don't know how it is with Fet's and other controller components. But from the pc and server world they got different quality on CPU's from the same batch. Maybe it is like that for controller components too? What I am thinking of is that if you buy the higher rated components before putting together a controller, then the less the chances for some freak break down. As Mobipus is OEM maybe they seen very low fail rate with their products, and are confident potting gives more benefits then not potting. So within warranty if you have a failed controller they likely just replace the whole unit.

The potting might be more important for some then for others. Where I live and larsb lives we got harsh winters with snow, rain and plenty of salt being spread onto the roads to prevent icing. And that salty mist and salty ice water that always covers our roads in the winter will penetrate into the weirdest places. So riding in such conditions I think potting is a big win.

If you are die hard DIY for complicated electronics such a controller and prefer to either mod or even repair I can see you got a point. Maybe you can get a custom build unit? One that is not potted? If you wave the warranty it might be easier to get acceptance for an unpotted controller?

Geez salting the roads...BAD for everything! It's banned where I live for environmental reasons and of course that also means my car doesn't rust out.

I was thinking exactly that...request an unpotted controller setup. As long as it works when I get it, I'm not worried about the warranty. I'm in the USA, the chances of shipping back to Australia are slim at best and prohibitively expensive. Maybe IF there was a US source for these controllers...I'd consider shipping it back for a replacement. Without that, there's a 99.9% chance I'd crack the cover and see about fixing it myself. Besides, I'd probably void the warranty almost immediately anyway.

Electronics quality variance...yes...exactly like that for anything with electronics components in it! I buy legit big name mosfets (TI, infineon AOT, IXYS and so on) from legit sellers such as Arrow, Digikey and Mouser. NOT ebay Chinesium mosfets!!! I also test every single one of them before they get used. Even for legit mosfets from legit sources, variation occurs quite a lot. It's loads better than the chinese parts, but still the variance in specs and quality can be quite broad. Not so long ago, I got 50 AOT290's from Digikey, tested every single one of them and then picked the best 12 for a controller build. No shorts, no reason at all, just bench testing under no load and the motor had been running smoothly for the last 5 minutes. The controller had seen life for less than 30 minutes and 2 mosfets popped. WTF?! Yeah...even legit stuff fails and has quality issues. People have told me it was static or my testing was bad...whatever. LOL! it was legit AND tested mosfets that died...not me screwing up! I used to do electronics repair professionally. I do know how to handle this sort of thing. Fortunately that controller only had conformal on it so swapping out 2 mosfets was easy.

 

[shortcircuit911]

My 72200 came super fast, like 3 days. Anyway, after I got it hooked up Sam was very helpful in getting me set up. Regen was super easy to enable, and getting a key to do so wasn't an issue. The display is awesome, I have the wifi module and am going to get a tablet for the display. Overall I'm super impressed with the quality, performance, and support I received. 5 star fore sure.

https://youtu.be/F7CyA5kuYpo

 

[Ohbse]

The Mobipus controller is OEM level quality and reliability that's much more accessible than others.

I'm not implying anything about the Mobipus controllers at all.

1. They are potted. AKA 100% non-servicable...which I really don't like!
2. They have not been around long enough to see what kinds of long term reliability they may or may not have.
3. They are "more accessible" which is a good thing. Most FOC controller makers make it hard for DIYers to get their products.
4. See number 3...if they really are "OEM quality" then they will hold up well to DIYers...we will see.

Potting...from the perspective of someone that does electronics repair since the 1970's:

Potting (burying the electronics in soft epoxy) is a great way to make any electronic device un-repairable. If you need to secure some large component, a dab of silicon at that part will do the job. If water incursion is a problem, use conformal or good seals or both. If there is something I've done in more controllers, it's blowing mosfets. Sometimes they die for no obvious reason. Sometimes it's my fault. Electrolytic caps go bad from time to time. Heat is a capacitor killer. It is possible that they may need to be replaced after a while. Electronics fail...it happens. I MOD just about everything. There's always "something" that can be done to an electronic device to enhance it's functionality!!! I could say the same for my car or the kitchen knife I use. About 80% of the time when I blow up a controller, I can fix them. That's becasue usually mosfets blow or some other relatively easy fix can be done. I'm 100% against potted electronics becasue when things break, all I can do is throw it away or spend many hours picking that crap off the board. Conformal serves the exact same purpose as potting and does not keep you from repairing things if needed. Potting is done 100% for the purpose of generating future sales. GRRR!

I like the idea of the Mobipus controllers and these controllers are producing good results so far. Honestly, the potting flat turns me off! I will eventually blow up the controller. That's a foregone conclusion in my mind. If I'm going to drop serious bank on a controller, then when I do break it, I will want to be able to find out if I can fix it again. Potting will make that quite difficult.

I'm seriously looking at getting the biggest model Mobipus makes, but it will set me back Some $1200 and I need 2 of them. There is a pretty good chance I will pop something after a while. Maybe It just died on it's own...it happens. Maybe it's me pushing it hard and I caused the failure. I'll want to find out what my $1200 really went into and why it broke.

Regen limits...lol...don't worry folks...someone will write a work around for this. Hack the firmware...that's my first choice. It's just software and this IS an open source product.

I couldn't disagree more with every point. You are the polar opposite of the target market, I'm confident mobipus aren't going to change their opinion on potting based on your preference for repairing things you've exploded. Please do not buy there's controllers if you do enjoy fixing your fuckups, you'll be rather bored.