Motor comparisons [CA120 et al.]

[h0tr0d]

Interesting to see the variations in specification for the CA 120.....

Can thickness - 2.6mm
Magnet size - 30 x 10 x 2.6mm

Source: http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/theses/2012-REV-InWheelMotor-Hooper-ME.pdf (page 98)

Page 99:
"As such at a given mechanical speed, the Turnigy with 14 pole pairs will have 40% higher eddy current losses than the Plettenberg with 10 pole pairs. This may be significant, especially at high RPM"

I wonder if they put a bit more amps on Ca (since it has 3x more copper than the predator), less volts (same power), wouldn't it up the efficiency on the motor...

Didn't quite understand why the new CA is so much worse than the original, could anyone expand their thoughts?
edit: Never mind last question, already saw the no load comparisons between old and new CA's

 

[crossbreak]

hi,

i do not want to interrupt your discussion, I'm just interested about the 150CC for a single speed bike. It has less poles than the CA120 so my guess is that it is better suited for a larger rpm band. If I would build a 2-speed, I would of course use the CA120 since it has lower copper loss as far as I can imagine.

Am I right so far? I recognized that no one has talked about the 150CC after the second page or so. So I ask myself why, has anyone here used it yet and if no, what's wrong with it?

 

[Miles]

Hi cb,

If you're talking about the current version of the CA120 from Hobby King, it has 20 poles, too.....

Not sure where you can buy the earlier one.

See here on for mention of the 150cc: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=676906#p676906

 

[crossbreak]

Thx miles! The CA120, the 100cc and the 150cc come with 0.2mm lams, 20poles and delta termination? Then i'll stick to the 100cc, it's cheapest :?

Ok it has 21mOhms resistance that's as bad the c80100 is recently sold. Maybe I should stick to the 5mOhms CA120, too :?

 

[Miles]

Thx miles! The CA120, the 100cc and the 150cc come with 0.2mm lams, 20poles and delta termination? Then i'll stick to the 100cc, it's cheapest :?

Ok it has 21mOhms resistance that's as bad the c80100 is recently sold. Maybe I should stick to the 5mOhms CA120, too :?

Apparently, Brian's CA120 has 0.5mm laminations..... You can't win

 

[Martini]

Hello

I have just received from China my own CA 120-100-70Kv
( the lable on the motor show 50Kv but is wrong )
shaft diam. 15mm 5Kg , 20Kw continue with Hall sensor .
his is the improved version of the CA 120-70 , I will use
in my UL motorglider .

a.s.a.p. I will update

Gianni

 

[circuit]

Nice. And the inductance is?...

 

[Martini]

Hi ,

I just open the pack , soon I will start measures and I will post

regards

 

[h0tr0d]

That is awesome!

We'll be interested in knowing:
weight
measurements
lamination thickness
pole count
phase resistance and inductance
Delta or wye
number of copper turns
link to seller!

I would imagine that the stator is the twice as long as the 120-70...

 

[h0tr0d]

Gianni,

what motor is this?

good looking belt drive BTW

 

[Martini]

Hello h0tr0d ,

this is the CA 120-100-70Kv ( 20Kw continue ) improved version of the CA 120-70
in the previuos post there are two picture of this motor on my desk .

Motor is 5Kg and can be supplied in A or B version ( see picture )

Gianni

 

[Arlo1]

Gianni,

what motor is this?

good looking belt drive BTW

Looks very simular to this.
[youtube]MeNk2Fcag0w[/youtube]

 

[h0tr0d]

Gianni,

Where can I buy version A?
Price?


Arlo1,
Price and specs of that gorgeous motor?
Preferably watercooled...

 

[Arlo1]

Gianni,

Where can I buy version A?
Price?


Arlo1,
Price and specs of that gorgeous motor?
Preferably watercooled...

Were working on the motor and controller options but it looks like the retail will be ~$700 it is a Air cooled colossus wich also has a LQ version. Its rated at 12kw but it eats controllers. Now that new controllers are starting to come out and people like me are building DIY controllers they are just about ready to FINALY go to production. I will post all my controller files when I have a proven working prototype.
Trust me there is no point in buying a 12kw motor for 700 and having to spend 2000-6000 for a controller that can really run it to its potential. So be patient.

 

[circuit]

Arlo, I think you can edit your signature from:
2012 is the year of Colossus!
to:
2013 is the year of Colossus!

And maybe 2014 later on... Knowing problems with these motors, it will take some more time.

 

[Arlo1]

Arlo, I think you can edit your signature from:
2012 is the year of Colossus!
to:
2013 is the year of Colossus!

And maybe 2014 later on... Knowing problems with these motors, it will take some more time.

Lol no dude I got it running I am just trying for hi voltage and power. I started a thread on that I will he riding it in the new year but I'm hoping to get it running again for proof before the end of 2012.

 

[h0tr0d]

Arlo,

I think me and Sarunas are on the same page.
I (really!) want you to succeed in your quest, but looking back to your efforts it's going to take a while before others can "copy" your work. And, with different motors (because no two motors or controllers are equal) then your "perfect" controller solution for your particular motor will not work immediately with other people.

BTW, Winding in Wye will have 3x the phase to phase resistance and inductance, so 3x easier making a controller for that, right?

 

[Arlo1]

Arlo,

I think me and Sarunas are on the same page.
I (really!) want you to succeed in your quest, but looking back to your efforts it's going to take a while before others can "copy" your work. And, with different motors (because no two motors or controllers are equal) then your "perfect" controller solution for your particular motor will not work immediately with other people.

BTW, Winding in Wye will have 3x the phase to phase resistance and inductance, so 3x easier making a controller for that, right?

First my controller will work with a lot of hard to run motors so that's not a big deal and the best thing is for me to build a controller and for someone to send me their motor I will set it all up on the dyno and ship it back.
Second if you rewind in Wye the ratio is 1.73 less rpm but the resistance and inductance are based on series vs parallel.

 

[crossbreak]

Looks lika a monster, this CA 120-100. I now ordered both 150cc and 100cc turnigy. as miles said, i can only loose anyway, so i go for these ones since no one has really reported on them yet. Will use it in WYE@20s lipo, a 24fet@80amps lyen controller and forced air cooling. I want to mount the halls outside for the first tests. the angle between the halls should be 12° for 120° timing, since it is a 20pole motor, right?

 

[Dauntless]

So I'm finding those pictures on glider projects that are also lacking any real info on the motors, not for lack of asking.

Companies with posters claiming they have 20-30kw motors either in use in or suitable for such projects (Whether I find the motor or not) are:

http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php Has the most powered gliders flying from what I can tell, previously mentioned here. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=27571&start=35

http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator37/Motor.htm

http://www.rctigermotor.com/show.php?contentid=146

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-vendo.php?shop=hacker&SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=37300006&t=3&c=36&p=36

http://www.freeair.cz/freeairen/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=172&category_id=51&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53

There's an English site, but no outrunners on it. Posters are swearing the 'Außenläufer' can run 20kw. http://www.lehner-motoren.de/torqstar/

But darn, I feel I haven't found his motor and that he will never tell what it is.

[youtube]YZUUbXspNM0[/youtube]

 

[Arlo1]

This has been a very discussed topic. When a motor turns a fan the load at 0 rpm is next to null and the load on the motor goes up at the square of the rpm, but when in a ebike or motorcycle the load is at its highest at 0 rpm.
This is the number one reason its really hard to run the big para-glider motors in a e-bike or motorcycle with a cheep controller.

 

[Arlo1]

Looks lika a monster, this CA 120-100. I now ordered both 150cc and 100cc turnigy. as miles said, i can only loose anyway, so i go for these ones since no one has really reported on them yet. Will use it in WYE@20s lipo, a 24fet@80amps lyen controller and forced air cooling. I want to mount the halls outside for the first tests. the angle between the halls should be 12° for 120° timing, since it is a 20pole motor, right?

What rpm/volt will you be looking to run at? What inductance? You might find a lyen controller not up to the task.

 

[crossbreak]

Hi Arlo,

I ordered both 80cc and 150cc just to have a look at them. Could not get any real dimension info anywhere, so I thought I should just order both and have a look myself. Guess the 80cc is more what I look for. It is 8 turn like the 150cc, has 195KV in delta, 112KV in WYE, and should also have 20poles. Resistance should be 26mOhms in WYE. Guess that a 24FET would be a perfect fit for 74Volts and 80amps. This does not influence the angle between the halls, does it? Is the 12degree setting completely wrong or what? I don't get it. I can just imagine how it would work on a 2-pole motor and calc the hall fitting angle from that. When i look at the angles between the halls fitted in my hub motors I can clearly see that they are aligned to the magnets. I also know that a turnigy 80100, which has 14 poles, has an angle of 17.14 degrees between the halls (I read here somewhere, will never find it again, since i did not bookmark). No idea if this is 60 or 120 degrees. But I know that 240/14 is 17.14.... ... confusing... right?

You might find a lyen controller not up to the task.

already wrote lyen and he said it will work fine, shouldn't it? He said that switching frequency wont be an issue. He also said that switching loss wont be an issue even with these low inductance motors. The gate drivers would switch fast enough to keep switching loss a minimum. Any reason I should doubt that? Thanks for your patience!

Cheers
-CB

 

[circuit]

I ordered both 80cc and 150cc just to have a look at them.

Will be waiting for inductance measurements.

You might find a lyen controller not up to the task.

already wrote lyen and he said it will work fine, shouldn't it? He said that switching frequency wont be an issue. He also said that switching loss wont be an issue even with these low inductance motors. The gate drivers would switch fast enough to keep switching loss a minimum. Any reason I should doubt that?

My 18fet lyen blew up with CA120. The two main reasons are:
1. low inductance of the motor
2. lyen controllers are shit, just like most of others. I say this as electronics engineer.

 

[crossbreak]

I know that lyen controllers are somewhat patchwork. The whole PCB design is a mess. That's why I did not order yet. But the RC controllers have really bad safety issues. I better blow my Fets than crashing my bike. I now had a look at the golden motor controllers. The HPC300H almost has exactly the same spec as the lyen/greentime/em3ev 24FET ones, but look completely different. Also I can order one and send back if I dont like it. This is what I would buy from. You think this one would be any better? http://www.devi-motion.com/webshop/controller/p-1/D1000479--hpc300h-motor-controller--72v-300a.html