Motor Cycles worse for Environment Say Mythbusters

AussieJester said:
Hahaha, yes yes Joseph, electric fails, ok let's say "falls down" so as not to start a full on riot lol, for the same reason it did years ago pre-ICE, the energy density of the batteries is simply not good enough, how many years they been working on improving that now?

Only time will tell......thus far though, its told us ICE is superior :mrgreen:

KiM
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The trouble these days is that the kids have no patience anymore. :mrgreen:
 
Really, we all need to come to the realisation that motorised personal transport is such a huge luxury we have all become so accustomed to it's laughable. To think that we have spent 100 years developing a 1.5 ton pile of steel and plastic to move one 80 kg human 15-20 km and use several megajoules of energy in the process. To say one mode of transport is superior over another because it emits more or less CO and NOx is futile. Electrifying our personal transport is awesome, but stupidly pointless when we could just improve our mass transit and live closer to where we need to be.

The ICE may have lived for a long time, but the bicycle is even older :)
 
Too true Joseph :lol: Maybe in another hundred years
Things will look brighter for the EV hey :mrgreen:

damage to the environment is a mute point a far as I am concerned
CHRiS, damage done by the automobile is insignificant when you look at the
Emissions from rainforests, volcanoes and even farting cows, wanna "fix" the environment issues, go cut down every tree and plug up every erupting volcano before you look at the ICE...I want to go further longer faster and cheaper, the ICE thus far is superior at giving me that, period. :p :p

KiM
 
To compare a ~20 year old beater to a brand new electric car is not fair.
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Life ain't fair, especially when you're buying a car. :wink:

Comparing to a new car is fair, right?...

Get the Civic DX for $15,805, instead of the Leaf for $35,500, and you'll save enough to go like 110,000 miles (assuming $5/gal). Also consider that you could pay off a cheaper car much quicker, and some people won't qualify for the Leaf anyway.

Do I want a Leaf, or do I want a Civic DX or two? Hrmmmm.</offtopic>
 
You're still all missing the point.



When you're driving an electric car, you're not buying the sand-people new Ferrari's.

You're keeping that big chunk of your budget, and your countries budget IN YOUR COUNTRY.



For minor points that hardly matter to me, you guys are comparing the amount of coal polution with transporation energy polution, yet only ~28% of energy goes to transportation. Stationary power gen with turbines is massively more efficient than any car's engine, and can operate carbon sequestered etc. However, the pollution aspect hardly matters, it's just part of the scam for more political control.

Petroleum fuels don't even have an upgrade path to fix the issue. Biofuels are a joke that only exist because the government puts more money into subsidizing the petroleum/resources used to make them. It never has and never will have the ability to be a solution.

Electricity on the other hand at least has the option to work. Right now it's only a few percent clean renewable energy, who cares! That's a few percent actually working, and the amount is only going to increase. Solar is a real option. You really can power the world with solar, and the energy to create them is shockingly minor to the energy they produce.

Wind, tidal, geo-thermal, hydro, solar, etc etc. Pick the one that makes most sense for your local environments attributes, the energy is all there for the taking. Energy, jobs, maintenance, upgrades, etc, it says in your local economy, and the sand-people don't get to bleed your country into ruin as you put around with a dopey smile on you face.


It's simple. It's the path that has a real achievable solution and desirable local-based outcome. With electric, you have the option of not paying OPEC for your ability to drive around. I work with a guy who drives an electric Rav-4. It really really works for all his vehicle needs, it charges from his modest solar array on his home, which also powers his home (which sells back power during the day, and then consumes power at night, so he has no batteries to bother with, and he profits from it.)

Electric gives you the option of making a real working solution, and I like to think it's like taking food right out of the mouths of the sand people. :)
 
AussieJester said:
damage to the environment is a mute point a far as I am concerned CHRiS, damage done by the automobile is insignificant when you look at the Emissions from rainforests, volcanoes and even farting cows, wanna "fix" the environment issues, go cut down every tree and plug up every erupting volcano before you look at the ICE...I want to go further longer faster and cheaper, the ICE thus far is superior at giving me that, period. :p :p

KiM
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Yep, right now, the ICE does take you further, faster and more cheaply than any other means. That's the joy of carrying 2.5 gigajoules of energy in your tank, only to make use of 5 % of it. Doesn't mean we can't try to improve on it, and right now, electric drive is looking mighty promising. There is also the added benefit of energy / transport security, as Luke rather eloquently described.

I won't bore you with the rock-solid data that proves volcanoes produce diddlysquat CO2 compared to mans activities...

But the rise of the automobile has caused lots of changes to the environment, many of them are bad. What percentage of our towns and cities consists of road? About 15% of the land mass is devoted to roads! Photochemical smog is caused almost exclusively by ICE motor vehicle emissions. All that dust that settles on park benches is a combination of tyre and particulate fallout from diesels. Ask any Albertan about what damage is going on in their neck of the woods - just to provide the USA with enough dino-juice to drive to the gym two days a week!

And automobiles are only the start of the crap we've spewed into the biosphere; war alone is probably responsible for more oil slicks than BP could ever compete with.

MY point is that we have gotten by with the dumbest, most inefficient means of moving our fat selves around for over 100 years. There is a better way :)
 
jonescg said:
MY point is that we have gotten by with the dumbest, most inefficient means of moving our fat selves around for over 100 years. There is a better way :)
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Yup agreed, more efficient lightweight ICE powered cars is the way of the future fo-sho CHRiS.. glad we finally agree :p :p :mrgreen:

KiM
 
I think we are hurting our own health more than we are hurting the environment, when it comes to pollution. ICE engines are emitting their pollution in your front yard, in the path of other drivers, cyclists, walkers, kids playing in the park next to the road. The air downwind of the highway smells noticably worse than when you cross to the other side.

Luckily things are getting better, significantly better than how bad the air was in the 70s. It's still not desirable to spend much time near any busy road though.

I don't buy into that 'carbon footprint' stuff too much. I do want to minimize how much I pollute the air we are breathing though. And of course, I would rather keep money in the local economy and not be wasteful.
 
REdiculous said:
Even charging a e-car like the Leaf would only be the equivalent of running the ac for a few extra hours each day.
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You're kidding, right?...

My house uses about 24kwh/day. 2000sqft, 4-6 people, no AC, on a well, electric water heater, stove, dishwasher, laundry, etc.

...the Leaf has a 24kwh pack so at 80% DOD you're still talking about as much as 19kwh/day.
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I was assuming that most people drive an average of 20 miles a day. 250wh/mile x 20 = 5,000 watt hours. Typical AC is 4,000watts draw.....


I still am on the fence on the e-car. I will stick with supporting: 14 year old gasoline civic, driven about 100 miles a month, if that. E-bike for everything else. = very low cost, very high flexibility, very low pollution. I hope I don't have to live in an area where a car is a must.
 
AussieJester said:
Too true Joseph :lol: Maybe in another hundred years
Things will look brighter for the EV hey :mrgreen:

damage to the environment is a mute point a far as I am concerned
CHRiS, damage done by the automobile is insignificant when you look at the
Emissions from rainforests, volcanoes and even farting cows, wanna "fix" the environment issues, go cut down every tree and plug up every erupting volcano before you look at the ICE...I want to go further longer faster and cheaper, the ICE thus far is superior at giving me that, period. :p :p

KiM
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Don't worry about that. We're burning those terrible rainforests and destroying all the natural things we can. Surely the environment would be better off without em.... since it was never a self-balancing ecosystem until we came and helped it out.
 
LFP nailed it.

Gas doesn't have a future. And it comes from the worst of places. Methods of finding it keep getting more desperate and pollutive.

+ Look into what's happening at the oil sands in Canada and how all the drinkable water in that area is going to shit..
+ Look into how much oil that is spilled in Nigeria..
+ Look at the risky drilling we're allowed to do that's produced the BP oil spill..
+ Look where deregulation fanatics would like to drill the most: a wildlife refuge in Alaska... one of the most unfettered and beautiful places in the world.
+ Look at where our domestic oil is coming from.. again.. oil sands or bitumen.. which is literally sand or rock that happens to contain oil and requires tons of processing to turn it into something that is actually combustible in an engine.

And we can generate electricity with NO environmental impact infinitely, as long as the sun still burns and the wind still flows.. two things i would bet cash on over us having any oil left in 50 years.

Electric is the future, my friends. Lithium batteries keep improving every year. Shoot; you can buy batteries with 200whr/kg now and that number is climbing. Tesla is releasing a 300 mile EV. Solar keeps getting cheaper.

The writing is on the wall for gas. And biofuels show no promise. Nor does hydrogen thus far.


AJ, what are you doing building so many electric bikes if you think the technology is inferior?
 
^^

Cause he's a shitstirrer :lol: ;) We loves ya AJ :mrgreen:
 
I'm all for solar, I have yet to see ones that the average person can afford, I would LOVE to be off the grid!

How much would a typical solar array cost that would power a house and charge up an electric car in a place not known for lots of sun like Oregon?

It's been my understanding that in most places you need some form of motorized tracking system to move a solar array to face the sun as it "moves" across the sky through out the day?

Hydro power is like a dream, but you have extremist that think we should remove any and all dams, and I think we can compromise, I don't know if it's really feasible to have hydro power in most places, or if we have enough bodies of water to distribute it locally and save on parasitic losses through long range transmission.

I know an older gentleman that lives in a little cabin in Troutlake WA, and has a little creek that trickles through his property where he has a a bank of deep cycle RV/Marine batteries to store enough to give him lights, but he lives where this is a lot of trees, not sure how a solar panel would help there, but I understand the concept, but he's by no means ever going to power an EV or have enough open sky for solar panels with the heavily wooded forest he lives in.

The point is, what can we do NOW that will work everywhere?

I'm no expert on solar, but if someone in the woods just wanting to take their E-Bike for an extended trip is generally not going to keep it going effectively on solar alone, how does that work for an entire house & multiple EV's? :?
 
Solar actually pays off without subsidies after about 15-20 years, and the remaining 30 years of energy are free, so you really do get ahead. The cost keeps going down per year as well.

http://solarbuzz.com/facts-and-figures/retail-price-environment/module-prices

Ultimately it is affordable because it saves you money, it's the upfront cost that's preventing people from going all solar..

Of course Oregon is one of the worst places to do the solar thing really. And wind is weak there too until you get into eastern Oregon.. ( i saw a shit-ton of wind and hydro power driving out there towards Idaho to Colorado.. it stunned me. )

There is no solution for everywhere.. the path off fossil fuels is going to require multiple solutions and will need to be catered to each region.
 
neptronix said:
Solar actually pays off without subsidies after about 15-20 years, and the remaining 30 years of energy are free, so you really do get ahead. The cost keeps going down per year as well.

http://solarbuzz.com/facts-and-figures/retail-price-environment/module-prices

Ultimately it is affordable because it saves you money, it's the upfront cost that's preventing people from going all solar..

Of course Oregon is one of the worst places to do the solar thing really. And wind is weak there too until you get into eastern Oregon.. ( i saw a shit-ton of wind and hydro power driving out there towards Idaho to Colorado.. it stunned me. )

There is no solution for everywhere.. the path off fossil fuels is going to require multiple solutions and will need to be catered to each region.
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Agreed, I'm also wondering why there isn't more geothermal, I mean I'm practically sitting on a fault line, I have heard of it being used, but I understand there is the "long run" solution which solar is supposed to help, but if we don't maintain and increase what we have now, how are we going to go forward effectively to pursue solar, it would seem that LNG might be something we can do now that would help us get away from coal while we are supplying our population with much needed electricity, and LNG is pretty prolific, most houses have it or can have it with nearby pipelines, and you can use it in slightly modified cars.

I forget his name, but one of the columnists of Popular Science that lives on the east coast has installed a filling station for his LNG car, and that might be a compromise for while the batteries catch-up.

Still doesn't have the same fuel efficiency of gas, but IIRC, it makes up for it in lower price and greater efficiency, but of course, half of the price of gas is taxes, and eventually enough people use LNG, they will start having to tax it to pay for roads & bridges and such.
 
Being a person who has said good riddance to his ICE car, and opted for my ebike as my sole means of transportation. I like to think that the current electrical solutions are just in their infancy. So no at this time an e-car doesn't make much sense. Pretty much for the reasons already given. But where applicable (single with no kids) an ebike with a trailor makes a ton of sense. ICE tech is about as far is it's going to get. Sure there are the mythical patents that make a 77 Olds get you 99 MPG. :roll: Electrical/battery technology is really just getting started good, it's not going to take much more for it to make ICEs seem like a silly alternative..

I also found it interesting that the show didn't make mention of how much less gas was burned per mile in motorcycles vs the cars. I have to wonder how much (as the difference can be staggering) less waist produced supplying these smaller engines with fuel vs how much more it takes to fill a car. Wile I drive electric, I do commend those who take to driving 50cc scooters and such because of the savings in gas. I have a roommate who has done this. I think she goes through maybe 1.5 gallons a week! :shock:


But the bottom line is, we can not keep going the way we are. Something has to change. The oil will run out.

Excellent post Luke, I couldn't agree more. I would much rather pump cash into my economy vs sending it to the desert.
 
Pure said:
But the bottom line is, we can not keep going the way we are. Something has to change. The oil will run out.
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But nothing will change until the shit hits the fan, at least in the US, that's how we operate. No one in charge wants real solutions. Instead they just complain about how bad the other political party is and what they aren't doing while nobody does anything. The people have very little control over this because they are all the same.
 
jonescg said:
^^

Cause he's a shitstirrer :lol: ;) We loves ya AJ :mrgreen:
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::bows:: appearing here all week :mrgreen:

@neptronix....as I have said here many times, electric
Is my second choice, I can't sneak under the radar
With a ICE motor strapped to my bike, its illegal
To run them here, I would gladly strap a water cooled 15hp
pocket bike motor to my bike Over this bloody expensive
Electric garbage, if I could get away with it, sadly I can't
So your stuck with me :mrgreen: .

KiM

P.s long live ICE, long live the 2 stroke :lol: :mrgreen:
 
Why don't you get a motorcycle and forget these horrible electric drivetrains?

2 strokes smell like shit and sound like shit..
 
:roll: here we go again...., workout a way for me to transport my wheelchair
Pay no insurance, registration and require no license for
And, be able to ride on the endless cycle paths here and I'll
doit neptronix until then your stuck with me :lol:

@your opinion on 2strokes, electrics cost a ridiculous amount and get you shit distance.... :mrgreen:

KiM
 
Ha, if you're worried about saving money by not paying for insurance, registration etc you are certainly in the wrong hobby.. you know that this hobby is expensive as hell and a gas bike would be cheaper than doing all the building you've done. How many thousands of dollars have you spent on your bikes that could have paid for insurance and registration over there?

If you were on a motorcycle you wouldn't need bike paths. Having the ability to build your own bike frame you could certainly

ADMIT IT, YOU LOVE ELECTRIC DRIVE YOU TREE HUGGER!! :lol: :lol:


And i dunno about your bikes but i get 60 miles of range out of mine. Which is about double than what i actually need. And the bike is still light enough to haul up a flight of steps. ( thank you, lipos, aluminum frame and 10 pound geared motor )
 
2-strokes rock. Not the garbage they put on bicycles, but real 2-strokes on dirtbikes, snowmobiles, jet skis, etc.

All the energy used in recreational power-sports combined doesn't amount to anything that matters a bit in the big picture.

It's getting people to stop wasting racing/power-sports fuel on hauling there retarded SUV to and from work sitting in traffic that I want to see. Spend the money for that energy in a place where it goes back into your own countries economy.


Regarding solar and other alternative energy, if you're in a big shady area or a cloudy area, don't use solar! lol There are so many things that are real effective solutions that work, it's just kinda retarded to say you're in some place that doesn't have any options or whatever. Between hydro, tidal, geothermal, solar, wind, wave etc etc etc, I can't really think of an area that is just SOL if they give it a honest attempt.

Really really dumb hicks with zero skills and zero electrical and physics understanding manage to make working solutions with throw-away golf-cart batteries and strung together car radiator fan motors from junk yards and crap as turbines. Or make those vertical slice-the-55gal-oil-drum-in-half turbines and stick them somewhere high enough through whatever method they can to make it work.

Or, if you're not a hick, you can buy pannels now for like $1.30 a watt, with <1$/watt panels to be released before the end of this year. You don't need MPPT (maximum power point tracking), you can just bolt them to your roof on the most logical side to choose, and still get all the energy you need, you just need to buy more panels to make up for not being optimally positioned (or go ahead and do basic 2-axis MPPT with a simply DIY satalite dish linear actuator and a $30 arduino uController.

It's not some outrageously expensive thing anymore that doesn't pay itself off for 40 years or whatever like it used to be when it really didn't make any sense.

You know how you know solar panels make $$$ sense now? Cause every time I'm in China, I see more and more wind turbines on every pole and surface on the skylines, and I see solar panels sitting on the roofs of practically everything from little huts with dirt floors to modern skyscrapers. Also very cool, in China, you can walk down the street, and have solar panel and wind turbine, solar hot-water-heaters shops/vendors all over the place.
 
Seem to have conveniently missed the wheelchair
Transporting issue neptronix, how do you suppose I get
The chair to where I am going? Can't tow it can't carry it
Pointless me getting from point (A) to point (B) if when arriving
At point (B) I don't have my wheelchair there, what do you purpose I do
Neptronix? Crawl? :roll: how many thousands have I spent? No idea wasnt aware I was meant to be keeping track sorry :roll: money really isn't that big an issue, for me, the less I can ride on the road though, Neptronix, is. I don't want to ride another motorcycle on the road, by choice, the cycle paths along major roads here are 100times safer than mixing it with cars.

And no, sorry to disappoint you neptronix, but I DON'T "LOVE" ELECTRIC (transport) AND I'M NOT a TREE HUGGER, I also wasnt aware one had to love it to use it, you drove an ICE vehicle at one point, you don't seem to"love" ICE much, does writing it in capitals though, make it easier for you to read and thus understand, neptronixx? If so I can write all Future responses to you in uppercase? Lemme know won't ya :roll:


I like the idea of solar too Luke, free power appeals to me to run my workshop, plus we have a fair few power outs up here, still stuck with above ground powerlines up in the hills unfortunately, I want to make some wind turbines next though VAWTs to be precise, have plans and part list ready to roll...

Re: 2strokes..haven't lived till your ridden two stroke motox bike, when they get on the pipe
its an awesome feeling...IMO

KiM
 
Only giving you crap AJ. Just think it's ironic that you came out and flat out stated that you think electric drive is inferior considering you've spent thousands.. have 3 builds going on prolly more..

I guess i woulda thought if you didn't like ebikes so much you'd figure out a way to avoid building so many and spending so much time on an ebike forum :mrgreen:
 
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