Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[michaelplogue]

Regen is really all you need except when your stopped on a steep hill or if regen fails. The way I have it setup is if you just touch the rear brake pedal it turn on regen at 10%, then on the left handle bar I have a thumb throttle wired to the variable regen input. and that allows one to add as much regen as needed. The rear disc brake is so I meet DOT standards and as a backup. The regen in the Kelly controller works well for the rear brake. If I want to lock up the rear brake I can use full regen plus the rear disc brake.
Mark

One thing I've considered on my motorcycle conversion - The right pedal remains the same for mechanical braking. Since you no longer need to shift gears, I was thinking of connecting the left foot control to a throttle so it can be used to control the regen braking. Another option could be to use the left hand clutch lever and use it as the regen brake 'throttle.'

 

[drewjet]

Mark it looks fantastic. I definitely will be wanting one and see how it compares to my brushless Mars. It looks as though it would only take a few hours to make the swap over.

Have you thought about bringing all 6 leads out and using the delta Wye switch?

My thoughts and experience with Regen-

On my motorcycle I was originally planning on using the variable regen. I first hooked it up using the switch from the front brakes. I set the Kelly for max regen on switch. It works very well. To slow down I pull the front brake a little. The regen kicks in, it is not a harsh kick-in, feels about like downshifting, If I need faster deceleration, I just pull a little harder and the front brake works as normal. It holds this all the way down to about 15 MPH, then because the motor is turning too slow it kicks off. The regen will never cause the wheel to skid, as then the wheel would not be generating, it's kinda like having anti-lock brakes. My rear brake is still hooked up, but I rarely use it, just when I need more braking action.

This works so well, that I see no need to change it, and certainly no need for adjustable regen. YMMV.

 

[GGoodrum]

I too would vote for a 6-wire version. It looks like Doc, Karma and others are having good success with wye-delta switching: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9215&view=unread#p148953

Actually, with the right relays, etc., it might be possible to fit the switching bits inside the motor, which would be ideal.

-- Gary

 

[kingjamez]

What's the point of doing wye/delta switching on a motor that can already do 60+MPH?

-Jim

 

[GGoodrum]

What's the point of doing wye/delta switching on a motor that can already do 60+MPH?

-Jim

80 mph??

Actually, running at 60 in delta mode will mean a lower motor rpm, so it might be a bit more efficient. It would also allow a bit lower kV wind, which means more low-end torque, and a still a higher top speed. Lots of possibilities.

-- Gary

 

[drewjet]

What's the point of doing wye/delta switching on a motor that can already do 60+MPH?

-Jim

Better acceleration, more effecient opperation

 

[nubiE]

I was just looking at your new web page and the Lifan and noticed something.

Are you putting the torque link under compression or tension on acceleration?

If it is compression then maybe the design needs to be different, as it was originally intended for the brakes, which should put tension on the torque link.

I don't know if it makes much of a difference, but maybe the best would be to have twin torque links, above and below. Although I suppose a solid torque link, or one with ends designed to accept both forms of stress, unlike the current 'crushed end' one.


Not ragging on the motor or you, just worried about the people who will be hot-rodding this motor (I know I would if I could ). That is probably the Lifan's stock brake link which you probably aren't trying to do burnouts with.

The motor looks absolutely awesome. I can see there is plenty of room for the end user to put their own water cooling system if they are going to be drag racing the motor.

Some of the comments on here confuse me, they say that a jig change will make the winding angle different? I thought that the winding angle was determined by the slots machined into the hub, not by any winding method. It could be a simple semantics problem, as I view machining and winding as two very different operations, whereas they may be condensing the two into one 'winding jig' catchall.

 

[markcycle]

I was just looking at your new web page and the Lifan and noticed something.

Are you putting the torque link under compression or tension on acceleration?

If it is compression then maybe the design needs to be different, as it was originally intended for the brakes, which should put tension on the torque link.

I don't know if it makes much of a difference, but maybe the best would be to have twin torque links, above and below. Although I suppose a solid torque link, or one with ends designed to accept both forms of stress, unlike the current 'crushed end' one.


Not ragging on the motor or you, just worried about the people who will be hot-rodding this motor (I know I would if I could ). That is probably the Lifan's stock brake link which you probably aren't trying to do burnouts with.

The motor looks absolutely awesome. I can see there is plenty of room for the end user to put their own water cooling system if they are going to be drag racing the motor.

Some of the comments on here confuse me, they say that a jig change will make the winding angle different? I thought that the winding angle was determined by the slots machined into the hub, not by any winding method. It could be a simple semantics problem, as I view machining and winding as two very different operations, whereas they may be condensing the two into one 'winding jig' catchall.

The torque arm for the power levels I'm testing it at seems fine. For acceleration and Regen braking the arm is pulled and pushed but has shown no signs of flex or bending, I inspect it regularly. Now every build is different and you have to evaluate the forces for your build. What is most important is that your comfortable with your implementation of the motor.

The lamination angle should be 8 degrees it was done wrong but will be fixed and tested. The slots aren't machined into the stator they are thin silicon steel stacked to make the stator.
For reference I am running peaks of 200 amps (less than a second) and continuous 40 to 90 amps with a battery voltage of 90 to 110 volts. I am running a series of experiments trying to improve the efficiency of the motor.

After Luke clued me in on the lamination angle I started a complete review of the motor both from a flux leakage and eddy current heating losses Analysis. I have leaned or discovered and done some important modifications to the stator in my shop that has improved the efficiency greatly. I can't talk details right now in respect for the supplier. But once a final design is reached I will show pictures.

I can't wait to see how the motor is moded to suit the power levels and unique builds and designs created. I'm sure there is going to be some interesting designs once this motor hits the streets.

Mark

 

[liveforphysics]

I'm very excited to hear you found room for improvements in the stator! That's outstanding! Better efficiency, better power, and less heating. All are great alone, and fantastic together!

I'm going to buy the lightest steel recombent I can find, your hub motor, and lace it into the toughest bike rim that fits. It should make a very peppy on-road ride!

 

[HAL9000v2.0]

Hi Mark, this thread is awsome and the motor also. I do not know how I've missed it. Looking forward to see some data of that motor...Great work.

 

[oatnet]

After Luke clued me in on the lamination angle I started a complete review of the motor both from a flux leakage and eddy current heating losses Analysis. I have leaned or discovered and done some important modifications to the stator in my shop that has improved the efficiency greatly. I can't talk details right now in respect for the supplier. But once a final design is reached I will show pictures.

This is exciting! I am eager to see both the pics and see what sort of numbers you get from your improvements. Thanks for creating this, Mark!

-JD

 

[nubiE]

The torque arm for the power levels I'm testing it at seems fine. For acceleration and Regen braking the arm is pulled and pushed but has shown no signs of flex or bending, I inspect it regularly. Now every build is different and you have to evaluate the forces for your build. What is most important is that your comfortable with your implementation of the motor.

Yes, that arm didn't look terribly flimsy, and you knew exactly what stresses you were planning on.

The lamination angle should be 8 degrees it was done wrong but will be fixed and tested. The slots aren't machined into the stator they are thin silicon steel stacked to make the stator.
For reference I am running peaks of 200 amps (less than a second) and continuous 40 to 90 amps with a battery voltage of 90 to 110 volts. I am running a series of experiments trying to improve the efficiency of the motor.

After Luke clued me in on the lamination angle I started a complete review of the motor both from a flux leakage and eddy current heating losses Analysis. I have leaned or discovered and done some important modifications to the stator in my shop that has improved the efficiency greatly. I can't talk details right now in respect for the supplier. But once a final design is reached I will show pictures.

Smack forehead! I didn't think of laminates. Of course you can change the angle easily if it is just stacked. Very cool, I am amazed at this motor.

I can't wait to see how the motor is modded to suit the power levels and unique builds and designs created. I'm sure there is going to be some interesting designs once this motor hits the streets.

Mark

I am going to imagine it might show up in some 3 and 4 wheeled contraptions

I wonder if anybody will do an electric version of this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3bVDA0cK6U

It is just very exciting, even sitting back and learning of this second-hand , thanks for sharing.

 

[kingjamez]

So is there any possibility of mounting these in a car like vehicle? I'd really like to do something like a DIY Aptera, and these motors would work really well for a simplified build.

-Jim

 

[TomA]

Hi Mark:

This design is already such a great accomplishment, congratulations to you. It just keeps getting better. I have a feeling once you see some customer road time and developmental feedback, this design is really going to take off. I'm very excited about what you are doing.

Your hub motor set up is getting to be just what I need. I'm really leaning toward using it at the back of a single seat teardrop tadpole 3 wheeler I've been designing that will be constructed from moldless composite materials, using techniques pioneered by Burt Rutan and others for aircraft. I haven't started construction, and don't expect to finalize the monocoque design or componentry until mid-summer. Target unladen weight is 375lbs, with 45-50% of that being lithium power. Until I found your motor, I couldn't figure out how to hit these targets. Now, I'm pretty confident that I can...

Since my vehicle is a full envelope design, I'll be watching the liquid cooling developments of your motor most intently. I probably I won't be able to adequately cool the motor any other way.

I have a simple noob question that I can't seem to answer easily looking around online: Is there a relatively straightforward way to reverse this motor? My vehicle must have reverse.

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer
White Plains, NY

 

[markcycle]

Hi Mark:

This design is already such a great accomplishment, congratulations to you. It just keeps getting better. I have a feeling once you see some customer road time and developmental feedback, this design is really going to take off. I'm very excited about what you are doing.

Your hub motor set up is getting to be just what I need. I'm really leaning toward using it at the back of a single seat teardrop tadpole 3 wheeler I've been designing that will be constructed from moldless composite materials, using techniques pioneered by Burt Rutan and others for aircraft. I haven't started construction, and don't expect to finalize the monocoque design or componentry until mid-summer. Target unladen weight is 375lbs, with 45-50% of that being lithium power. Until I found your motor, I couldn't figure out how to hit these targets. Now, I'm pretty confident that I can...

Since my vehicle is a full envelope design, I'll be watching the liquid cooling developments of your motor most intently. I probably I won't be able to adequately cool the motor any other way.

I have a simple noob question that I can't seem to answer easily looking around online: Is there a relatively straightforward way to reverse this motor? My vehicle must have reverse.

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer
White Plains, NY

Sure use a Kelly controller and reverse is a flip of a switch.

Waiting on 2 new wheels hopefully and expecting this will be the finale version, should have them in about a week. Lots of improvements to report shortly. I would enjoy working on a water cooled version for someone with a worthy application. Fan cooled will happen faster.

Mark

Mark

 

[markcycle]

So is there any possibility of mounting these in a car like vehicle? I'd really like to do something like a DIY Aptera, and these motors would work really well for a simplified build.

-Jim

well Jim yes and no. The motor may be powerful enough ( fan cooled or water cooled version) but the bearings would need to be changed to car like taper roller bearings. Wish I knew what the real demand for the motor will be and if the effort at designing different version for vehicles other than motorcycles is viable.

Mark

 

[oatnet]

Wish I knew what the real demand for the motor will be and if the effort at designing different version for vehicles other than motorcycles is viable.

Even though I'd love to build a 4wd with these someday, the range of possibilities is too boggling to address. You already have plenty on your plate. Build to your vision now, do that function well, and let market forces drive you to varients later.

-JD

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark, and Tom (from NY).
I too am constructing a leaning trike. Mine however will be a delta design. Depending on cost I may begin by a single rear wheel drive using one of Marks motors. It should be easy enough to add the second (rear) wheel, motor assy as $$ allows. I like other "lurkers" here want to thank Mark for all of his efforts. I pick up the steel for my frame fabrication today. I am using dual Honda CBR 1100 rear swing arms. I would like to see some photos of Tom's tadpole design as it progresses?
Thanks again
John Head (Rochester NY)

 

[TomA]

Mark, and Tom (from NY).
I too am constructing a leaning trike. Mine however will be a delta design. Depending on cost I may begin by a single rear wheel drive using one of Marks motors. It should be easy enough to add the second (rear) wheel, motor assy as $$ allows. I like other "lurkers" here want to thank Mark for all of his efforts. I pick up the steel for my frame fabrication today. I am using dual Honda CBR 1100 rear swing arms. I would like to see some photos of Tom's tadpole design as it progresses?
Thanks again
John Head (Rochester NY)

Hi John:

Your project sounds really cool. I'd love to see it progress.

My trike will not lean. It will be a composite monocoque with- at this point- a custom a-arm front suspension using ATV components and a motorcycle swing arm rear. Sort of a Corbin Sparrow mated with a Bonneville belly tank roadster. I haven't finalized between open front wheels versus fully enclosed. I am at least 90 days from construction, but I don't think I can proceed without having the motor and controller cooling worked out. That is not currently the rate-producing step, so I can let others go forward there for now. I will start a blog and track progress as the vision sinks into reality...

Tom

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Tom,
As the build progresses I will try and post some jpg's. Now I have the two swing arms, wheels etc. laid out and I'm currently fabricating the connecting links. The linkage is designed to make the trike "self centering" . This will be dependent on the CG etc. I am also debating on the battery system. I would like to make it a 72v. system however at $5,000 for a liFo system, I may be using deep cycle gel cells. The extra weight if mounted below the swing arms can aid in stability. Ahh the trade-off's to be made during the design phase...

 

[markcycle]

Tom,
As the build progresses I will try and post some jpg's. Now I have the two swing arms, wheels etc. laid out and I'm currently fabricating the connecting links. The linkage is designed to make the trike "self centering" . This will be dependent on the CG etc. I am also debating on the battery system. I would like to make it a 72v. system however at $5,000 for a liFo system, I may be using deep cycle gel cells. The extra weight if mounted below the swing arms can aid in stability. Ahh the trade-off's to be made during the design phase...

Just a note I did 96 volt (32 cell) 40AH thundersky for under 3000.00 including the chargers, and I just got quoted yesterday at $65 for a 40AH cell.

EBay Listing Link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200329295027

 

[kingjamez]

Wow, those Li-FePO4 cells are getting very cheap. This project is looking better every day.

-Jim

 

[JRP3]

They can be had even cheaper than that. www.poweredbydc.com is doing a bulk order and letting people get in on it for $1.10ah plus shipping and customs/tariffs. Cut off time is soon but you might still be able to get in on it.

 

[markcycle]

I have no affiliation with automation tech at all but there price ($1.65 AH) includes free shipping and a 2 year warranty so its 6 of one half dozen of the other.

Mark

 

[JRP3]

With the estimated shipping costs it should still come in under $1.25-$1.40ah depending on where you live, but yeah you are dealing directly with TS.