Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark, Thanks for the update. Now more options to ponder. If YOU were designing a vehicle to use with (possibly) TWO of your motor/wheels, What voltage and what battery systems would you choose? I would like to keep the cost for the energy source (batteries/chargers/ etc.) under $2500 IF that is possible? If not just more time needed to either sell another one of my "toys" or save more $$$.
Thank you
John Head

 

[markcycle]

Mark, Thanks for the update. Now more options to ponder. If YOU were designing a vehicle to use with (possibly) TWO of your motor/wheels, What voltage and what battery systems would you choose? I would like to keep the cost for the energy source (batteries/chargers/ etc.) under $2500 IF that is possible? If not just more time needed to either sell another one of my "toys" or save more $$$.
Thank you
John Head

First I need to know what the vehicle will weight and the aerodynamics of the vehicle.
then the other questions follow how far, how fast, acceleration wanted and of course budget.

The question is do you need 2 motors? Because if one motor would work that saves a lot when you factor in the controller wiring and such.

My latest motorcycle weights about 350LB and I'm using 32 cell LIFEP04 @ 40AH. That gives me a top speed of 65 MPH Max +/- 5 MPH and at 40 MPH a range of 40 to 50 miles. I average anywhere from 85 to 135 WH/Mile depending on my riding style.

Its hard to give a clean direct, "do this" kind of answer though I would say at 96 volts (110 hot off the charger) you get good play in traffic speed with some reserve.

Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark,
My three wheeler will be more a "recumbent style. Quite low to the ground. (NYS law states a motorcycle must have a minimum seat height of around 22".) I was considering running 72volts. I have a daily commute of only 8 miles however it is very congested and I would like to be able to go 55-60 mph when necessary. As it will have two rear wheels I am still toying with running a single motor in the FRONT wheel. ( earls fork suspension?) The bike will have a built in limit of 45 degrees of lean angle. I hope not to exceed 420 lbs. Eventually I would like to have a bubble canopy cover to keep me dry during (typical fall) wet weather here in Western NY. If the single front wheel drive doesn't work successfully. I can always drive just one of the rear wheels, (or both when $$$$$ allows). Thank you again for all the helpful suggestions and for your development of newest Hub powered wheel/motor of which we are anxious to see.
John Head

 

[markcycle]

Mark,
My three wheeler will be more a "recumbent style. Quite low to the ground. (NYS law states a motorcycle must have a minimum seat height of around 22".) I was considering running 72volts. I have a daily commute of only 8 miles however it is very congested and I would like to be able to go 55-60 mph when necessary. As it will have two rear wheels I am still toying with running a single motor in the FRONT wheel. ( earls fork suspension?) The bike will have a built in limit of 45 degrees of lean angle. I hope not to exceed 420 lbs. Eventually I would like to have a bubble canopy cover to keep me dry during (typical fall) wet weather here in Western NY. If the single front wheel drive doesn't work successfully. I can always drive just one of the rear wheels, (or both when $$$$$ allows). Thank you again for all the helpful suggestions and for your development of newest Hub powered wheel/motor of which we are anxious to see.
John Head

Just 8 miles so with a 2X reserve It looks like you'll need a very high C battery. Say you go with only 20AH battery but you'll want to pull 200 amps, at least. I hit 250 amps from a dead stop for a second or two at times like starting on a hill which Western NY has plenty of ( I also love passing power). I would stick with a lot of voltage 96 volts so you can be assured of the top speed you want.

We can talk more as things advance

Mark

 

[patrickza]

Mark, I've been a lurker here for a while but your motor gets my first post!

The motor looks great, going for a hub motor really opens up a whole range of possibilities. I've been toying with the idea of a hybrid bike, but it just wasn't practically possible without a hub motor. Now the big question I have is could you run the motor along with the regular gear sprocket on the back of a small bike? I'd most likely go for a small dual sport bike and build panniers for the batteries.

The other option I'm considering is to put the hub motor in the front wheel and leave the motorcycle drive train as is. This would give me a 2x2 motorcycle. I currently ride a tw200 which has a motorcycle rear wheel as a front (130/80/18). Both of these options should also increase the total power of the bike, more than compensating for any performance loss with the extra weight of the electric components.

Am I crazy or could this just maybe work?

 

[markcycle]

Mark, I've been a lurker here for a while but your motor gets my first post!

The motor looks great, going for a hub motor really opens up a whole range of possibilities. I've been toying with the idea of a hybrid bike, but it just wasn't practically possible without a hub motor. Now the big question I have is could you run the motor along with the regular gear sprocket on the back of a small bike? I'd most likely go for a small dual sport bike and build panniers for the batteries.

The other option I'm considering is to put the hub motor in the front wheel and leave the motorcycle drive train as is. This would give me a 2x2 motorcycle. I currently ride a tw200 which has a motorcycle rear wheel as a front (130/80/18). Both of these options should also increase the total power of the bike, more than compensating for any performance loss with the extra weight of the electric components.

Am I crazy or could this just maybe work?

Not crazy at all; Conceptually I have designed a hybrid version using the hub motor on the rear wheel. There is the issue of when the gas engine is driving the bike, the electric motor will have to track but not put any energy to the road. If the controller is in current mode (current mode is the default mode of operation) then it is easy to do. As far as electric drive, hold in the clutch (solenoid) and ride on battery only. To have both the gas engine and electric engine share the load is also possible.
If you got the skills and budget to do this project, I certainly will support you, we can make it work and work very well.

Two wheel drive is of course possible but properly dealing with the front disc brake is critical and I don't know if the fork can take the load.

Mark

 

[todayican2]

Mark, i second everyone else in saying that this Hub motor of yours is way cool! It seems like there is a lot of interest in using them to drive a single wheel of an aero trike as well. I am doing that too, 2 seat, side by side, reverse trike, fully enclosed in a slick fairing (aviation canopy and all) perhaps the trike guys can compare notes?

Here is another question for someone on this list smarter then me, if we look at the aero / weight of the lifan for example, I am guessing 400 bike and 170 person (Mark, I have no idea your size lol, so I went with the average) so 570 total and the aero os a man on a small motorcycle.

compare to a highly faired, enclosed with canopy, trike weighing 650 empty, with 400 pounds of riders.

any guesses on top speed, climbing ability etc?

p.s. When can I send you some money Mark?

 

[markcycle]

Mark, i second everyone else in saying that this Hub motor of yours is way cool! It seems like there is a lot of interest in using them to drive a single wheel of an aero trike as well. I am doing that too, 2 seat, side by side, reverse trike, fully enclosed in a slick fairing (aviation canopy and all) perhaps the trike guys can compare notes?

Here is another question for someone on this list smarter then me, if we look at the aero / weight of the lifan for example, I am guessing 400 bike and 170 person (Mark, I have no idea your size lol, so I went with the average) so 570 total and the aero os a man on a small motorcycle.

compare to a highly faired, enclosed with canopy, trike weighing 650 empty, with 400 pounds of riders.

any guesses on top speed, climbing ability etc?

p.s. When can I send you some money Mark?

Your number on the weight of the Lifan and me are about right
The Aero of the Lifan is terrible so I know it is hurting my speed.

The magic question OK my guess and right now its a guess with enough voltage and current limited to 100 amps continuous 250 peak. With a good slippery design on flat ground. My answer would be 80 to 100 MPH maybe more. The fastest the Kelly controller can go is 5000 RPM. So that's not a limiting factor. The bearing in the motor are good for 1800 RPM continuous. All in All the speed is about your design, with over 10HP continuous to the wheel, for a speed run maybe 30 to 40 HP (if your prepared to chance cooking the motor or commission me to design a water cooled version, its on the list).

p.s. When can I send you some money Mark?
Soon; believe me I would love to take your money and if you're on my mailing list you will be notified as soon as I'm comfortable the vendor can produce a good repeatable design. I think we are there and after I receive the next 2 wheels I'm getting next week, some testing, inspection and published test results, well be ready.

Mark

 

[TomA]

John, todayican2, Mark:

Perhaps we should take the scratchbuilt electric trike conversation into a new thread. Until then, just to round out the discussion here as it applies to this motor:

1. Footnote: I'm very surprised to discover the 22" seat height requirement in NY. I've never heard of that here or in other states. Scary. That renders a whole class of vehicles in production for more than 75 years worldwide illegal, starting with the Morgan Super Sports and including the Bond, Reliant, TriHawk, and many, many plans-built and kit trikes from Trimuters and Tri-Magnums to the Lomax and Grinall, a fair number of which I have seen on the road in NY state over the years. It bears investigating, but its off-topic...

2. The hub motor works for my trike because my vehicle is comparatively featherweight. Comparable commercial trikes are the now-defunct Gizmo at over 500lbs, and the BugE at about 400. Look at them to see just how light things are on a trike under 500lbs. Neither has the performance I'm shooting for, but both are cheaper, and could probably use this motor.

3. I've never seen a scratch-built two-seater much under 1000lbs, and those were ICE-powered trikes with no batteries. As an example, a superbly weight-minimized Isetta is over 800lbs, little of which is the fourth wheel. Most Robert Q. Riley plans-built trikes are 1000lbs without batteries. Swapping to electric drive doesn't pull 400 pounds of weight out like in a car, either. Mostly, what porks up home-builts are a steel frame, and the use of automotive components. Adding steel racks and lead batteries makes that worse. If you can get a two-seater down to 650lbs dry, including batteries, that's a huge accomplishment, but you will have to use lithium and do without steel tube and angle to get there. Even then, a gross weight over 1/2 ton is probably too much for this motor. If my gross weight were 1000lbs or more, I'd drive the 2-wheel axle with a combined differential/AC motor setup from MES-DEA or Azure Dynamics and let the single wheel coast. Yes, its costly, but we are now off-topic for Mark's motor anyway, unless you think a 1/2 ton vehicle is a good application for your design, Mark.

4. The net of it is Mark is right, it will take big amps to climb hills with these motors in most (heavier-than-motorcycle) trike applications, and they won't like it, especially tucked under bodywork. I'm going to extreme lengths to keep the weight down. This motor has a pretty good performance envelope for the lithium I can carry at my target weight, which is all relatively close to Mark's bike, but doubling everything would make me rethink that, more than just adding another hub motor.

Tom Alvary
Just A Tinkerer
White Plains, NY

 

[todayican2]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9863

 

[michaelplogue]

Mark -

You may consider pre-wiring the motor so folks can utilize the delta-star trick as has been discussed in this thread:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9215


Just a thought....... :wink:

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

A new trike thread would be good. A couple of wrong assumptions with MY design. It will probably be only a single seater similar to the Sun EZ-3 recumbent tricycle (of which I have three!) and I now believe (thanks to Mark's input) that I will be able to afford and design around the LiFEP0 batteries and I hope to be able to fit enought to go 96volts. I am putting pencil to paper and laying out the possible battery positions tonight. (Quadruled paper is the greatest tool for me!). This is an EVERGREEN design up until I get out the welder.. (expected time three weeks or so??). Then I will begin taking photos and updating everyone as I progress with the frame build. Thanks again for the encouragement and suggestions from all.
John Head

 

[Jay64]

Mark, do you happen to know what is the widest rim this hub can accommodate? Ideally, I would like to get a rear tire somewhere close to 130/90/17 or 150/70/17. I've got a sportsbike chassis sitting here all stripped down just beggin' for life.

 

[markcycle]

Mark, do you happen to know what is the widest rim this hub can accommodate? Ideally, I would like to get a rear tire somewhere close to 130/90/17 or 150/70/17. I've got a sportsbike chassis sitting here all stripped down just beggin' for life.

2.5 inch X 17 should be no problem or even some what wider. just pay attention to the finale tire circumference as that determines how fast or slow the bike will go and the torque you get. Stay around 2000mm and 72 volts and you should be fine for about 60 - 65 MPH. If possible I would recommend a 18 inch rim and a 120/90/18 tire for 72 volts and 130/90/17 for 96 volts. For a heavy bike you need torque so a 603 may be better with a 130/90/17 or a 150/70/17 and 96 volts.

What do you think the bike is going to weight?

Mark

 

[Gow864]

Mark, how do you think your motor will perform at 51.2V? (16 X 3.2 90Ah batts)

Thanks,
Gow.

 

[markcycle]

Mark, how do you think your motor will perform at 51.2V? (16 X 3.2 90Ah batts)

Thanks,
Gow.

It will be slow 40 45 MPH I think 72 volts really is the minimum voltage for the new 602 and 96 for the 603. It just depends how fast you want to go. If your using it to upgrade a moped then 45 MPH may be OK.

But a motorcycle with some get up and go is going to need 200 amps peak and 96 volts. This is what I'm currently using with a modified air cooled first generation 602 and the performance is very good maybe even excellent. The next generation motor I'm expecting in a week or so will be even better lower KV and better efficiency.

Mark

 

[Jay64]

So what is the difference between the 602 and the 603? The 602 is more for top speed and the 603 is more for torque? Can these motors handle 96v? I'm not sure what the weight will be yet. I will probably be using headway cells for now. Not sure how many I will use, but I will probably try to use as many as possible. I have 64 on order and they weigh about 300 grams each. Plus the weight of your motor and the chassis and all the small incidentals.

 

[TomA]

Hi Mark:

I'm following your motor developments with interest. Congratulations on your sustained efforts, its really coming together.

I have a couple more questions about the motor as it applies to my application:

1. I'm continuing to develop my light tadpole trike design, and most likely will wind up at around 460lbs dry, 650lbs gvw. I plan to use 34-36 LiFePO4 cells of 80-90Ah, and the Kelly 120V/400A controller unless your own design, or something your recommend more highly, is available. This will give me 109-116 Volts nominal, up to 136 fresh off the charger (that level of surface charge, as I understand it, would last far less than a minute, but I have no experience with these batteries...) I'm using the swing arm, spring/damper unit and rear caliper/disc from a 2005 Yamaha YZ125. My Cd should be under .25, and it looks like I can keep the frontal area near 17 square feet. If I hit those targets, this thing could maybe touch 100mph with with your motor, (my calculations indicate it would take something like 29-36 horsepower to do that, depending on lots of assumptions and how I do the math.) My concern is really at the other end of the spectrum, though- the last 1/4 mile to my house is a 350' hill on public roads, and I need to climb it and have decent acceleration to make the trike usable. The swing arm will accommodate any 17 or 18 inch tire, and I'm shooting for the lowest weight and highest efficiency, (tall and skinny, like maybe even a front tire,) so what do you think would be a good compromise wheel/tire spec/size for this application? What would you guess (not holding you to it, just a ballpark) that a unit like that would weigh, including a lightweight rim, tire and YZ125 (245mm) brake disc? Put another way, what does your prototype weigh, and how would what I'm asking for compare with that?

2. Do you have a recommendation of the 602 v. 603 motor for the above application?

3. Cooling is going to be my big issue. This isn't really a question, because I don't need to figure it out right now, but I will follow your fan cooling developments, and if nobody gets there ahead of me, I'll probably be knocking on your door early next year about liquid cooling. I'm not at the construction stage now, and for the the first iteration I'll almost certainly be working out the various systems on an open-chassis tube-frame test mule, so the project isn't likely to be stalled for motor/controller cooling system development.

Of course, anything else you'd like to know or think I should know is most appreciated.

Thanks, and keep up the great work!

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer
White Plains, NY

 

[markcycle]

Hi Mark:

I'm following your motor developments with interest. Congratulations on your sustained efforts, its really coming together.

I have a couple more questions about the motor as it applies to my application:

1. I'm continuing to develop my light tadpole trike design, and most likely will wind up at around 460lbs dry, lbs gvw. I plan to use 34-36 LiFePO4 cells of 80-90Ah, and the Kelly 120V/400A controller unless your own design, or something your recommend more highly, is available. This will give me 109-116 Volts nominal, up to 136 fresh off the charger (that level of surface charge, as I understand it, would last far less than a minute, but I have no experience with these batteries...) I'm using the swing arm, spring/damper unit and rear caliper/disc from a 2005 Yamaha YZ125. My Cd should be under .25, and it looks like I can keep the frontal area near 17 square feet. If I hit those targets, this thing could maybe touch 100mph with with your motor, (my calculations indicate it would take something like 29-36 horsepower to do that, depending on lots of assumptions and how I do the math.) My concern is really at the other end of the spectrum, though- the last 1/4 mile to my house is a 350' hill on public roads, and I need to climb it and have decent acceleration to make the trike usable. The swing arm will accommodate any 17 or 18 inch tire, and I'm shooting for the lowest weight and highest efficiency, (tall and skinny, like maybe even a front tire,) so what do you think would be a good compromise wheel/tire spec/size for this application? What would you guess (not holding you to it, just a ballpark) that a unit like that would weigh, including a lightweight rim, tire and YZ125 (245mm) brake disc? Put another way, what does your prototype weigh, and how would what I'm asking for compare with that?

2. Do you have a recommendation of the 602 v. 603 motor for the above application?

3. Cooling is going to be my big issue. This isn't really a question, because I don't need to figure it out right now, but I will follow your fan cooling developments, and if nobody gets there ahead of me, I'll probably be knocking on your door early next year about liquid cooling. I'm not at the construction stage now, and for the the first iteration I'll almost certainly be working out the various systems on an open-chassis tube-frame test mule, so the project isn't likely to be stalled for motor/controller cooling system development.

Of course, anything else you'd like to know or think I should know is most appreciated.

Thanks, and keep up the great work!

Tom Alvary
Just a Tinkerer
White Plains, NY

Hi Tom

Well I wish I could tell you the motor would work in your application but your trike sounds more like a small car app than a motorcycle. First until I or someone else comes up with with a water cooled version, this motor will overheat at the power levels you need. 30 HP is about 22.4 KW. The motor is going to be rated 10KW, 30Kw peak like for starting off the line, so thats a no go right there.

I think you need a motor such as
ADC 8" 72-144VDC 17.5HP Single Shaft

My bike weights 325-350 pounds and the motor/wheel combo is going to be rated for 400 pounds and lighter bikes yours is closer to 500 pounds

Maybe two 603 motors but then the cost is prohibitively high.

I wish you luck with your build

Mark

 

[TomA]

Understood, Mark, thanks for the info.

I will continue to work the problem for a while, because I think it is possible for me to get what I have back under 400lbs. That would make my trike far lighter than any car, or even any microcar, of which I'm aware. This design was inspired by and specified around your hub motor, with 10-12kW being the power level I'm building it for. I didn't mean to overstate my intentions or power requirements just getting excited about how little it would take to go really fast in it. Ultimately I don't care about that. My power requirements are the same as any other vehicle at my weight, except that I want to climb a hill every day, and my motor is enclosed. When my rig is less than 400lbs, I'll let you know.

In the mean time, keep up the great work. I'll be following your effort.

Best regards,

Tom

 

[jorhyne1]

Any updates on how your design is progressing?

 

[markcycle]

Any updates on how your design is progressing?

I am expecting 2 new prototypes next week which will be (I hope) the finale design. As soon as i have any pictures I'll post them.

One other note worthy point:
I now have over 300 miles on the original prototype wheel with internal fan cooling. It has been working excellent and since I implemented fan cooling I haven't had any thermal shutdowns, without fans depending on how hard i rode the bike I could have a thermal shutdown (140c winding temp) every ten miles. Also i have been able to keep the rotor temp below 70C and this is with peaks of 220 amps, full output of the Kelly controller.
The air is pulled in across the winding and through holes in the stator and out through holes in the opposite cover.

 

[RoughRider]

hey mark, your motor is realy nice...keep going...

can you post a picture of your sidecovers...i would like to see the bearing point...

are the sidecovers out of alloy like your axle?

 

[knightmb]

Any updates on how your design is progressing?

I am expecting 2 new prototypes next week which will be (I hope) the finale design. As soon as i have any pictures I'll post them.

One other note worthy point:
I now have over 300 miles on the original prototype wheel with internal fan cooling. It has been working excellent and since I implemented fan cooling I haven't had any thermal shutdowns, without fans depending on how hard i rode the bike I could have a thermal shutdown (140c winding temp) every ten miles. Also i have been able to keep the rotor temp below 70C and this is with peaks of 220 amps, full output of the Kelly controller.
The air is pulled in across the winding and through holes in the stator and out through holes in the opposite cover.

I like the redundant fan design you have. I was kind of worried that one giant fan could be one of those "single point of failure" problems. While I'm sure the thermal shutdown would save you from frying the motor, still being able to drive few a miles before having to wait for the motor to cool down is better than not being able to go anywhere at all because the only fan went dead.

I also like the simplistic solution you have because those types of fans can be had anywhere for cheap (easy to replace or repair) and if cheap ones work well, getting some higher quality brushless mini-fans like that would be even better. Heck, if they can run in a PC non-stop for 5 years, they should have plenty of life in them for road travel since they won't be on 24/7 like in a PC. A simple circuit can function as a "warning" light if one of the fans go out (kind of like a check engine light or something) so anyone that uses it will know that there may be a cooling problem if one of the fans goes bad.

I think you got a real winner, those fans barely use 1 watt of power between all of them, won't make any dent in the battery capacity. Glad to see you've been so dedicated to this, I can see this will work out really well for you.

I'm sure those that want to race will of course use some other type of design, but for us that would be happy with the "base" power output, it's a nice solution.

 

[markcycle]

hey mark, your motor is realy nice...keep going...

can you post a picture of your sidecovers...i would like to see the bearing point...

are the sidecovers out of alloy like your axle?

Here you go