Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[liveforphysics]

You've got good charactor Kim, and it takes balls to say what you just said. Using the "S" word is a sign of being a real man. :Thumbs up:

And great job Mark on getting those batteries all stuck in there, and getting a simple, silent, and effective setup going to power that bike. Many times while building all the pieces to put my drivetrain together, I kept thinking about what a simple and compact solution a hubmotor makes. A product like this can enable everyday Joe to do an conversion with minimal tools, skills, and fussing around. That's filling a nitch for motorcycles that has been left empty for a long time. Good work!

 

[markcycle]

You've got good charactor Kim, and it takes balls to say what you just said. Using the "S" word is a sign of being a real man. :Thumbs up:

And great job Mark on getting those batteries all stuck in there, and getting a simple, silent, and effective setup going to power that bike. Many times while building all the pieces to put my drivetrain together, I kept thinking about what a simple and compact solution a hubmotor makes. A product like this can enable everyday Joe to do an conversion with minimal tools, skills, and fussing around. That's filling a nitch for motorcycles that has been left empty for a long time. Good work!

Wow thanks
I hope I can put enough hoursepower between those spokes to make you proud.
Mark

 

[pgt400]

Mark,

Nice work.

Whats the eff of a hub motor like this? Does it come in brushed and brushless? The rpm is so low compared to a chain bike, how is the acceleration? Gotta like freeing up the engine area and losing the chain!

 

[markcycle]

Mark,

Nice work.

Whats the eff of a hub motor like this? Does it come in brushed and brushless? The rpm is so low compared to a chain bike, how is the acceleration? Gotta like freeing up the engine area and losing the chain!

The Eff is a function of RPM but about the same as all Xlyte Hub motors the motor is brushless. The acceleration is OK not fast by motorcycle standards but keeps up in traffic fine with a little extra left in the throttle if needed. I'm not always at full throttle wishing for more, I get up to speed with the cars and find myself modulating the throttle as I go along, this is on 30 to 45 MPH roads. You lose track as to how fast your going because there is no engine whine to give you feedback but the quite is cool.

Mark

 

[evmotorcycle.org]

Another great advantage of a hub motor is that it frees up a bunch of space in the frame for batteries. I have a few dirtbikes that I would like to convert to some supermoto type bike, but the frame space is severly limited. Having a hub motor would make it a possible build. Also, the original top speed of those bikes isn't that great, so this would actually be an improvement in performance.

Agreed Jay64. I would be VERY interested in using one of these hub motors in a Yamaha DT125R or similar. It would save a lot of hassle for building motor mounts and chain noise etc. I had a little DT80LC many years back that would have been ideal for conversion with this motor!

So what's the deal Markcycle, are you going to be producing these to sell? What would be ideal is for you to supply the motor already strung to a wheel so a customer could give you a wheel spec and you could just supply the whole thing. Motor, wheel and brake rotor. Do you have a website for this motor?

Andy.

 

[markcycle]

Another great advantage of a hub motor is that it frees up a bunch of space in the frame for batteries. I have a few dirtbikes that I would like to convert to some supermoto type bike, but the frame space is severly limited. Having a hub motor would make it a possible build. Also, the original top speed of those bikes isn't that great, so this would actually be an improvement in performance.

Agreed Jay64. I would be VERY interested in using one of these hub motors in a Yamaha DT125R or similar. It would save a lot of hassle for building motor mounts and chain noise etc. I had a little DT80LC many years back that would have been ideal for conversion with this motor!

So what's the deal Markcycle, are you going to be producing these to sell? What would be ideal is for you to supply the motor already strung to a wheel so a customer could give you a wheel spec and you could just supply the whole thing. Motor, wheel and brake rotor. Do you have a website for this motor?

Andy.

First I am going to sell them, just getting the last details and one more rev of the motor then I,m ordering a boatload. Well first a plane load then a boat load so we don't have to wait forever to get them.

Yep going to be complete with a DOT rim cross 2 spoke pattern, at first 2 sizes 18 X 2.15 and 17 X2.15 not sure if I want to include the rotor in the price since I can't get a discount on rotors, but send me you rotor and I'll mount it for free and will include a custom torque arm for your bike.

Web site is being finished, my daughter is working on as we speak.

Mark

 

[dnmun]

mark, you should talk to jason. he has good shipping connections from china and is just across the river in jersey. i think his wife has an import business and you may be able to get a buncha motors into one of their containers and pick them up local. maybe batteries too.

was that the wantagh parkway or southern state parkway in the background of your video? do you feel like you could ride at parkway speeds?

 

[kingjamez]

Just wanted to put my name in as someone who will likely buy one of these motors. If it can do 50+MPH on an average "crotch rocket" and the price is reasonable, I'll certainly buy at least one.

 

[markcycle]

mark, you should talk to jason. he has good shipping connections from china and is just across the river in jersey. i think his wife has an import business and you may be able to get a buncha motors into one of their containers and pick them up local. maybe batteries too.

was that the wantagh parkway or southern state parkway in the background of your video? do you feel like you could ride at parkway speeds?

wantagh parkway
I know it can reach parkway speeds but substain parkway speeds well that takes alot of battery. 40 AH battery just isn't goin to get very far at 60 to 70 MPH

Mark

 

[oatnet]

Mark, thanks for that great Vid of your parkway ride, very nice to see it in motion.

What sort of amps are you pulling at launch, and a sustained speed?

Did you hand-check motor temps after your ride? Did it run cool enought that you could pump in more watts via amps, or would that that generate too much heat? Or how about more watts via Volts instead? You know me, I always want to boost juice until I let the smoke out of the motor. :lol:

What was that sustained speed BTW, I know you went to the speedo but I couldn't make it out.

-JD

 

[evmotorcycle.org]

Sounds great Mark. If you could add me to your mailing list andy@evmotorcycle.org when you know about dates, prices then that would be excellent. Looking forward to seeing these in some builds! > Andy.

 

[markcycle]

Mark, thanks for that great Vid of your parkway ride, very nice to see it in motion.

What sort of amps are you pulling at launch, and a sustained speed?

Did you hand-check motor temps after your ride? Did it run cool enought that you could pump in more watts via amps, or would that that generate too much heat? Or how about more watts via Volts instead? You know me, I always want to boost juice until I let the smoke out of the motor. :lol:

What was that sustained speed BTW, I know you went to the speedo but I couldn't make it out.

-JD

The amps I pull at start peaks at 150 and the voltage sags to 95 - 92 volts and this gives brisk acceleration. Heat is the enemy of this motor. I have the thermal shutdown set at 130C on the winding and if I use a lot of Regen I can get the motor up to that temp again on the winding itself. On the case I haven't seem more than 65C. The large aluminum axle acts as a great heat sink pulling stator heat out, I measured up to 92C peak on the axle, when the winding is 130C.

This is the reason for one more rev of the design. Xlyte has worked out a new stator design for the 602 that will have about 30% more copper. It's pretty impressive stator design. This will mean lower voltage for the same RPM hence less heat loss. Same number of turns. It's a good motor as is, but will be a great motor with this new stator design. I will have the new stator next week. Of course water cooling is still on the table for the ultimate in power handling.

There was about a 5 MPH difference between my GPS and the Speedometer so I was going 55 MPH in a 40 with throttle left over.

Edit: if you watch the video in HD then you can read the GPS and speedo
Mark

 

[dnmun]

mark, because of the design, you could actually add a large heat sink to each side of the wheel but fixed through that collar that carries the weight onto the bearing. imagine a disc with the collar inserted through the center, so the heat would travel from the inside to the outside through the collar and then into the disc through their perimeter joint. make the collar out of copper and the heat sink could actually be copper plate soldered on and fitted inside the frame, but outside the disk brake. since it doesn't turn, it could be irregular in shape and fitted into the rear swing arm frame, and still get cooling from the airflow.

enclose the heat sink in coolant or make the heat sink into a tubing with coolant flowing through.

 

[markcycle]

mark, because of the design, you could actually add a large heat sink to each side of the wheel but fixed through that collar that carries the weight onto the bearing. imagine a disc with the collar inserted through the center, so the heat would travel from the inside to the outside through the collar and then into the disc through their perimeter joint. make the collar out of copper and the heat sink could actually be copper plate soldered on and fitted inside the frame, but outside the disk brake. since it doesn't turn, it could be irregular in shape and fitted into the rear swing arm frame, and still get cooling from the airflow.

enclose the heat sink in coolant or make the heat sink into a tubing with coolant flowing through.

that's a good Idea though it adds to the complexity greatly. Once we establish a baseline on what this motor can do with the new stator, I'll consider changes to bump up the power for different applications. I'm hoping the base motor in its simple form will work for most motorcycle conversions. Though the extra weight may adversely effect the handling of a bike (how much is debatable), the hub motor still can make a very fast bike if done right and kept cool; so yea for those who have a need for speed cooling the motor will make that happen.

Just as a point of reference I'm carrying 4KW of battery on a very small motorcycle (200cc bike). There is almost no way to carry that much battery on that size bike without using the Hub motor.

Mark

 

[Toshi]

mark,

kudos to you for working with crystalyte to develop such a product. like other posters, i feel that there is a niche in the market for a motorcycle-class hub motor.

i do have a question: how does this differ from scooter-class hub motors that are commercially available for conversion projects, such as the one sold through my local shop, sound speed scooters?

http://soundspeedscooters.com/store/conversions/electric-vespa

(i have no affiliation with them besides having test ridden their wares, and i don't know the source of their motors and bits—they're certainly not made in house or in this country.)

 

[markcycle]

mark,

kudos to you for working with crystalyte to develop such a product. like other posters, i feel that there is a niche in the market for a motorcycle-class hub motor.

i do have a question: how does this differ from scooter-class hub motors that are commercially available for conversion projects, such as the one sold through my local shop, sound speed scooters?

http://soundspeedscooters.com/store/con ... tric-vespa

(i have no affiliation with them besides having test ridden their wares, and i don't know the source of their motors and bits—they're certainly not made in house or in this country.)

The fundamental difference is the hollow axle that allows a through bolt mounting just as any motorcycle wheel uses. To my knowledge no other hub motor is designed to directly interface to a motorcycle exactly as a motorcycle wheel does including a torque arm that picks up the exact same mounting points. (see pictures of the motorcycle in the thread) Oh and what scooter wheel comes in 18 X 2.15 rim and takes a true motorcycle tire. This is a real motorcycle wheel in every respect.

As far as power is concerned we are striving to be the most powerful hub motor available to the consumer, not just in numbers but it actual test results. If you look through this long thread you will see where I plot data from this motor using my custom 250 pound Battery Box Motorbike as I like to call it. Currently I am focused on temperature testing, both directly on the winding, but also understanding how the large aluminum axle helps emphasis only on helps removes the heat. This testing is what lead to the new stator design, which I am now cleared to show, so I will.

I hope this explains the difference between this wheel and a scooter wheel

Mark

 

[Jay64]

A lot of builds have put the motor on the swing arm, a la el ninja. This has the weight of the motor, the original wheel, chain, both sprockets, and mounting plate all on the swing arm. I think that it would be much better to have a hub motor instead.
Mark, what size is the hollow axle? How are you planning to account for different axle sizes? Are you going to have different sized spacers that could be sold with the kit? Or just leave that up to the customer? Have you done any testing to see how changing the compression and rebound might offset the motor weight in terms of handling? You can have a lot of the different shocks re-built to have a stiffer compression and rebound baseline. I know that adds to the build process, but it might really help for the people that are really worried about the effects on handling. And if someone is really concerned with the precise handling of their bike, they should probably be refreshing their suspension anyways, adding stiffer spring to account for any increase in initial sag that the weight of the batteries might add to the build.

 

[kingjamez]

I would love to see the winding machine that can wind that stator. That's VERY impressive!

-Jim

 

[markcycle]

The last step in the motorcycle conversion was to add a Disc brake to the bike. The project wasn't nearly as hard as I though it would be. I did it quick and dirty, but with care not to damage the swingarm. I probably should have mounted the caliper off the torque arm but I didn't want to take the wheel out of the bike, so I oped for a carefully mounted L bracket, you'll notice I used a plate on the under side of the front bolt so to spread the load and not crush the arm when tightening the aircraft nut.

So with Regen plus a disc brake there should be plenty of stopping power.

Oh jay about the axle bolt interesting enough every bolt I have measured and even the Dia. you gave me for the one or two you measured for me are all the same Dia. I oversized the hole a bit so I could shim it down if necessary. Since the bearings are on the 60mm hollow axle a little play gets locked down once you tighten the nut and press the 60mm axle against the singarm.

Mark

 

[oatnet]

I would love to see the winding machine that can wind that stator. That's VERY impressive!
-Jim

At xlyte the winding machines have 10 fingers :lol:

-JD

 

[CGameProgrammer]

It's true. A bunch of women hand-wind the motors.

 

[kingjamez]

Ouch. I've wound my fair share of motors and it HURTS after pulling all that wire. I wound a motor 1/100th the size of this one and hated it. I can't imagine handwinding that thing.

That said, I'm glad they do it, I want one!

-Jim

 

[captainslug]

If the bolt pattern for the torque arm could do without just one or two of the bolts without compromising strength, you could have those drilled all the way through at a much smaller size so that you could tap the ends for fittings that would allow you to watercool the hollow axle (if only a little bit).
That might limit you to using a higher antifreeze mix if a copper radiator is used, or you could get by with an aluminum radiator. Like the type used for cooling oil.

Should the motor design change a little bit further, a rotary union could be added so that you could run water where needed inside the motor.

Just thinking out loud. I've recently been working on brass cooling block clamps to locally control the temperature of aluminum items being welded.

 

[nubiE]

Wow, I love the idea and would like to see how it progresses into a commercial solution!

Quick question on the heat, have you considered a heat-pipe arrangement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

It looks as though you could move some of the heat to the hub for dissipation with a flat piece of copper or some other heat-sink (if you are moving then it should cool fine.) Water can move more heat, but keeping the moving parts and water weight down (not to mention radiator weight) might be worth it on all but the most extreme race applications (at which point I would suggest a "turbine" case that air-cools the coils, perhaps with heatpipes and internal heatsinks)

Is there any reason that this motor couldn't be used paired up in a car with driveshafts? IE replace the differential with a pair of these connected to the shafts. Or would that necessitate an entirely different case?

(If the battery problem could be solved LiFan should put these in their cycles and sell them as complete EVs )

 

[markcycle]

Wow, I love the idea and would like to see how it progresses into a commercial solution!

Quick question on the heat, have you considered a heat-pipe arrangement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

It looks as though you could move some of the heat to the hub for dissipation with a flat piece of copper or some other heat-sink (if you are moving then it should cool fine.) Water can move more heat, but keeping the moving parts and water weight down (not to mention radiator weight) might be worth it on all but the most extreme race applications (at which point I would suggest a "turbine" case that air-cools the coils, perhaps with heatpipes and internal heatsinks)

Is there any reason that this motor couldn't be used paired up in a car with driveshafts? IE replace the differential with a pair of these connected to the shafts. Or would that necessitate an entirely different case?

(If the battery problem could be solved LiFan should put these in their cycles and sell them as complete EVs )

Fluid cooling really is a last resort and won't be necessary for most. I've seen a picture of the new stator with the copper winding and its should eliminate the need for exotic cooling solutions. You guys/gals are welcome to buy a motor, engineer and modify it to suite your own need for speed.

In a car application it might be necessary for fluid cooling as far as interface it may be possible to use a pair in a car with very little modification, I just haven't studied it.

Mark