Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[RoughRider]

how much Amps come from controller to each phase?

 

[amberwolf]

i think the 220 amps comes from the battery pack to the controller. from the controller to the phases would be a different rating

Yes. It would be higher. Well, it *could* be higher.

 

[slayer]

i was thinking it would be lower . it could even be the same i don't really know,

i was using as a reference my power inverter wich is saying in the instruction to use shorter and bigger wire from battery to inverter then after you can use longer wire after but an inverter is not the same as a controller of course, so i will have to say i don,t know about the phase current being more or less or equal, maybe markcycle knows

 

[markcycle]

The RMS phase current is 1.71 times lower than the battery current. The peak phase current cant be higher but the RMS is always lower.

But I don't leave things to chance I measured the temp rise on the wires many many times under worst case situations and settled on this wire size based of 10KW of continuous motor output using a 32 cell 96 volt LIFEPO4 pack with a temp rise on the wires of no more than 40C temp rise above ambient

Mark

 

[amberwolf]

I must be thinking of the entire controller current that would (could) be higher, and since I'm used to dealing with brushed motors, that'd make either motor wire current higher. I keep forgettting that a brushless 3-phase might not be the case, since the currents are not run the same way.

 

[Doctorbass]

by one from Kelly...500$

http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=product&cat_id=41,26,47&product_id=516

but i would by the bigger one...800$

I'm using a 120 volt 220 amp Kelly at the moment good for 136 volts. This should be OK to demo the motors capabilities

Mark

What is the max voltage you used with that KBL controller?.. I know it's 136V max.. but i wouder if it use the FDB2532 150V mosfet..

We know that our infineon and crystalyte controller work well up to 100V.. sometime 108V with the 4110 100V rated mosfet... so... 150V mosfet could take 150V... ?...

I know it's a simple extrapolation... but could the desing of that kelly so different than our infineon...?

I would not blow it but wold use the max voltage!.. I will ask to method also.. ( he sold me that controller..)

and.. what is the max BATTERY current you measured with it?


Doc

 

[voicecoils]

I know it's a simple extrapolation... but could the desing of that kelly so different than our infineon...?

This is quite off topic, but the best place to look is threads/photos of dead and dissected Kelly controllers. Kelly keeps it's designs quite secret. I think you'll find the design is quite different from the Infineon/Crystalyte boards.

 

[Doctorbass]

I know it's a simple extrapolation... but could the desing of that kelly so different than our infineon...?

This is quite off topic, but the best place to look is threads/photos of dead and dissected Kelly controllers. Kelly keeps it's designs quite secret. I think you'll find the design is quite different from the Infineon/Crystalyte boards.

I agree.. Sorry for the off topic.. let's return to the original..

 

[RoughRider]

thanks for the info mark....

with 10kW cont. and 96V battery...i calculate 61Amps cont. through the 6AWG wire...that should be OK...

how do you measure the temperature...what kind of sensor do you use?

 

[whiteblade]

Hi there

Personal I am using this temp gauge , you need a 5v dc to run it & i also had to extend the temp sensor wire to reach my motor.

Got one off of ebay fom china here's a link you can find them cheaper than this but he has good feed back.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-Meter-Gauge-C-F-PC-MOD_W0QQitemZ270529461213QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efccffbdd

Power supply regulator 7v-35v to 5v

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250537677573&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

[Arlo1]

Does anyone know the winding on these motors is it the same as a x5?? Is it capable of the WYE DELTA mod?

 

[markcycle]

Does anyone know the winding on these motors is it the same as a x5?? Is it capable of the WYE DELTA mod?

The 600 series motor is not capable of Wye/Deta

Trapezoidal wound motor

Mark

 

[Knuckles]

The 602 has a skewed stator. The skew reduces cogging torque.
(The skew may also tend to reduce maximum motor torque under power.)
Interesting book excerpt attached.

Motors with skewed stators may not be applicable to wye/delta switching schemes.

I think Mark has pondered a 602 with a straight (non-skewed stator) as a prototype.
Would be interesting to see if it puts out more torque than the skewed version.
Might also work for (on-the-fly) wye/delta switching too.

View attachment skewing.jpg

 

[Arlo1]

Just curious. I do think I will own one of these one day. I am folowing the pikes peak build section and motor selection is on my mind. I am thinking something with a little more top speed is in need.

 

[markcycle]

Just curious. I do think I will own one of these one day. I am folowing the pikes peak build section and motor selection is on my mind. I am thinking something with a little more top speed is in need.

I'm considering Pikes Peak and if I can find some sponsorship money for travel then its a go for Enertrac.

I'm working with 20C Lipo and getting good results on my test stand.

A 144 volt 20AH Lipo pack with a 602 0r 603 depending on the speed VS torque needed for the race will make a competitive bike.

Anyway its going to come down to money and at this point its just in the planning stage.

I am build a 100 volt 15AH Lipo pack for this dirt bike

The pack will be well protected with .25 inch aluminum wall for the pack, I may even integrate oil cooling if needed. My thinking is if I keep the current at or below 10C I shouldn't get much heating.

I'm not in the battery business, just want to demonstrate the potential of the motor

Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark,
Pikes Peak sounds like some great exposure for you and your motor. I might suggest, roating your torque arm with regards to the exit point of your motor harness however. I repositioned mine so that the harness exits upward and I can run it along the TOP of the swing arm. This MAY.. help to protect the harness from flying debris, rocks etc. during your run up the mountain? And I'd be happy to respoke your motor once we can get a more "angle friendly" pattern worked out.
Highest Regards
John Head

 

[markcycle]

Mark,
Pikes Peak sounds like some great exposure for you and your motor. I might suggest, roating your torque arm with regards to the exit point of your motor harness however. I repositioned mine so that the harness exits upward and I can run it along the TOP of the swing arm. This MAY.. help to protect the harness from flying debris, rocks etc. during your run up the mountain? And I'd be happy to respoke your motor once we can get a more "angle friendly" pattern worked out.
Highest Regards
John Head

If the harness exists up be sure to use silicon seal to prevent water from running down the wires and into the motor. This is why I face it down and do a small U loop with the wires.

Great to here your working on the project the washers are in a bag they will go out today. I measured them and they meet the dimensions you listed in the email.

Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Yes,
Silicon on harness is sure to be part of the "things to do list"!
Thanks again for the washers. I have ordered a new axel for the 2nd motor. I need to turn the OD down once it arrives.
More things to do.. But as soon as I have the chassis assembled with both motors I'll be sure to send you some jpg.'s
Regards
John

 

[Jay64]

A 144 volt 20AH Lipo pack with a 602 0r 603 depending on the speed VS torque needed for the race will make a competitive bike.
Mark

I guess that would kind of depend on the difference in torque of the two motors versus the difference in top speed of the two motors. Typically for this race you are going to want more torque over more top speed. There are a lot of turns that require massive braking, hard driving out of the corner, while going up a very steep incline, while not having too many major straights. I would lean towards the torque motor unless there is a huge difference between the speed of the two motors and only a small difference in torque between them.

 

[markcycle]

A 144 volt 20AH Lipo pack with a 602 0r 603 depending on the speed VS torque needed for the race will make a competitive bike.
Mark

I guess that would kind of depend on the difference in torque of the two motors versus the difference in top speed of the two motors. Typically for this race you are going to want more torque over more top speed. There are a lot of turns that require massive braking, hard driving out of the corner, while going up a very steep incline, while not having too many major straights. I would lean towards the torque motor unless there is a huge difference between the speed of the two motors and only a small difference in torque between them.

I agree Jay
The 603 is 1/3 less speed and 1/3 more torque so at 144 volts you'll still have 80 MPH
Again all this depends of some sponsorship funding which at the moment hasn't happen

Mark

 

[Arlo1]

AWESOME Ok so I am so excited for all of this! But have some more questions.
#1 what do you use to build a 144 volt pack?
#2 The top temp of you temp gauge is 70deg C? I have had my x5 to 180deg C! So I would think you need one to read to 150-180 someware for a top temp!
#3 what controler are you using?
#4 what tire size?
#5 what is your average watt hour/mile so far and during what tests?

 

[markcycle]

Here is a Ninja 250 build using 602 hub motor on another forum

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=1088&page=12

Mark

 

[Doctorbass]

Mark, Knuckle said that you may be working on a NON SKEWED motor ( JUST STRAIGHT) to be able to make the DELTA WYE operating?

If so.. I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO GET ONE!.. It appear that it also could give more torque?

Steveo and me found some DPDT relay of 80A DC ( probably 100A+ in AC) in the BOSH car 12V style.

These already can fit into a 9C motor ( 6 relay).. so i guess that in this motor it is almost possible!.. More room...

So just imagine how it could be to have the Delta-WYE relay integrated IN the motor... and just having two added little wires out of the motor to switch from one mode to the other!

A REAL POWERFULL two speed electric transmission hub motor !.. probably it would be the most advanced and powerfull electric hub motor!

What do you think?


Doc

 

[RemoteContact]

Here is a Ninja 250 build using 602 hub motor on another forum

http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=1088&page=12

Mark

Thanks for the press Mark.

To ES: this motor is the real deal. It may be more expensive than an etek and an alltrax but I think the extra battery space is more than worth it. My ninja Mark linked to has 32s 60ah TS cells.

 

[markcycle]

Had some time today to work on the dirt bike with my focus on the battery box. On a small bike its really clear how the hub motor frees up the engine bay for batteries and makes for a clean design

One side of the battery box is hinged this will allow me to remove the Lipo frame to charge the batteries or have multiple battery packs

Mark