Motorino XPn Chinese ebike (scooter)

[Wolfy]

Hi Ray;
I got the same issue with my e-scooter regarding hill climbing. My machine is a stock Veloteq Commander.I'm just down the hiway in Hamilton and my nemesis is the Niagara escarpment at over 300ft high.Think I'm gonna beef up the wiring and connections also, that was something I was thiking about for a while but never got around to it.The reply from BCwrench confirms it for me.Had no idea that there could be THAT much difference.Brilliant work BC! Think I will go with LED's eventually also.This will obviuosly be safer,but also less load on the batteries.Waiting for good sale at Princess Auto,Canadian Tire,or where ever.
I'm getting my controller replaced,just ordering it now.OEM controller limited to 12A.Going with Infineon Lyen version.Reasons are;
1) Reasonable price
2)Three speed mode (granny speed,road legal speed for Ontario,Balls out mode for offroad and hill climbing)
3)User programmable interface to change specs(get the most out of OEM motor since I believe more than just limiter used to detune for legal compliance)
4)Uses 4110 mosfets for better amperage and more robust and should run cooler.
5)Lead for electronic speedometer which my OEM scooter employs
6)Powerful and robust enough for future motor upgrading.
7)Capable of Reverse and Regen Braking,motor design permiting
8)Really good reviews from other ES members and also other forums.
9)Kelly controllers are Cadillac but a whole lot more coin (not worth the expense at this point with the Velotech)

I'm not going to replace my 48v 20AH SLA's until they're exhausted....I mean what's the point,no one would want them.They would just lay around.Another way to increase top speed and hill climbing ability is to add another 12v of battery power to make it 60v.That's a 20% increase tthat SHOULD be handled by the lights and DC to DC circuitry.While on the subject of batteries,I'm suprised that you have 2 batteries in parallel with one at 20AH and the other at 16AH.I thought they should be matched for proper charging and recharging.But I could be wrong.I had figured on possibly going dual drive or just replacing the OEM drive, but I'll hold off until I evaluate the performance with the new conroller and rewiring.Who knows how far I can push the OEM geared BDLC before cooking it.

Wolf

 

[Wolfy]

Ray;
Don't be afraid of buying from Lyen, it'll be your best bang for your buck and he does e-mail promptly. As for the software........if you are buying the controller you get the software.Just so you know I've already downloaded it from the web along with intructions with pictures and all so it's not even an issue.So I'm sure I'll know how to use it before I even get the controller delivered.Do yourself a favour and read all you can in the Technical Reference area of this forum.Also,look up some of the older strings from Lyen and also Method.Don't go nuts right away and increase to 72v or higher.You may be quite happy with 60v and not have to change much else.Remember batteries are the most expensive part.I'm not a fan of OEM controllers so go for new controller,heavier wiring across,and from and to batteries then to controller.Phase wires are the fatter Yellow,Blue,Green ones from the Controller to the Motor,if they get heated up replace them too.You have to open motor cap to solder the fatter wires in.The new Lyen Controller will have the fatter wires to the connection already.
Take Arlo's word with a grain of salt.

Wolf

 

[Arlo1]

Grrr.... Arlo1 you're confusing me now So the Lyens are just ok now and from what you say, if I were to get one then I'd be on my own if I ever have problems with it. That's a bit scary to me. What is a better alternative? One of your controllers maybe? 25% more speed sounds good to me so I would need to go to 72V I suspect. More amps to get more torque to go up hills so instead of staying at 20 amps, I should look into 40 amps right? Now I still have this question, can the motor I have now which is rated 500watts/48V run on 72V? Or do I need to upgrade the motor?

Thanks
Ray

I'm just using random numbers as an example. Volts determine top speed amps determine the power to accelerate or climb hills.

As for Lyen I need specific needs for my builds that Lyen can't offer.
Lyen seems to offer great service and the best bang for buck pricing.
I have asked various info and he hides it through email I still have not received an email from him my self for the questions I asked because I am not a paying customer of his as well a few of us asked the same question many times in a roe and only the paying customers got answers in email he never posted the info publicly. I have found better software then he has to offer anyway.
This forum is 100% about helping each other and Lyen does not care about that he will take care of his paying customers only!
Having said that.... I recommend anybody looking for a good bang for buck controller to email Lyen he is the best you will find and from what I have seen his product is very good quality.
I am not in the controller building business because I spend to much time building my controllers that I would have to charge to much!

 

[Boxmaster]

If your XPn is put together like mine then you should find it underneath the right rear side panel. There's only three screws holding the panel. This is the plug, it's just a wire that loops around.

Thank you so much. It's so annoying having the motor cut out as when you get up to speed. I'm pretty lucky as I live in the Canadian prairies so there are absolutely no hills the xpn can't conquer around me.

 

[mistercrash]

It looks like I'll be going with a Lyen when I'm ready to start working on this thing this winter. Right now I still use it everyday to go to work and run errands. It's starting to get cold but it don't matter, I saved so much money this summer selling my car to run with a scooter that I want to run it until the snow falls and stays. I tried to open the motor cap one weekend this summer but I couldn't. Seems the cap was stuck in silicon maybe to make it water tight? I'll have to do it this winter and find a way to remove that cap without damaging it to change the phase wires. I have a few meters of 10 gauge multi strand wire with silicon insulation used for RC lipo batteries, I was thinking of using that for the phase wires. The rest of the wiring for the batteries will be a piece of cake. I'll just get some 8 gauge welding wire or just buy a set of booster cables like it was recommended in here by bcwrench I believe. I have a set of booster cables I could use right now but they're made with very big 6 gauge welding wire. Kinda overkill me thinks.

Thanks for all your help and comments people, much appreciated.

Ray

 

[mistercrash]

I am curious to know what the big difference is between these two batery/charger/BMS combos. Other than price and chemistry and the kind of cell used, I'm wondering what the difference would be in quality between the two. One is Ping and the other is Electric Motorsport.

Ping (add $75 for high rate BMS and 5 amp charger)
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-2/lifepo4-lithium-ion-phosphate/Detail

Electric Motorsport
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_lpf_gbs_kit48.php

Ray

 

[Bluefang]

Both are about the same i would say, just one has fancier hard plastic packaging. The fact that the Electric motor sport site does not list the C/discharge rate of the battery means its probably the same as the ping, ie really bad

For a safe easy to use plug and play option they are both pretty good, seeing as your putting the battery in a already built battery compartment the ping is probably a better bet. I would still say your much better off using Lipo from Hobby king, its not hard to buy 8 batterys and build them into 2 packs to parallel to charge and series to run the scooter, will work better, cost less, much more powerful and be lighter.

 

[mistercrash]

I used many HobbyKing lipos in the last three years in my RC trucks and RC helicopter. My experience with them is that they don't last as long as higher quality lipos. I've had a few loose much of their performance after just over 100 cycles. Even higher quality lipos do around 300/350 cycles before they start to loose their performance. I don't want to replace lipos every 6 months, I don't see the savings there. I also had a lipo fire once so I'm not keen on putting a bunch of Lithium Polymer batteries in an enclosed space. I don't want to smell smoke one day and pull to the side of the road just to watch my scooter burn and there's nothing I could do about it. LiFePO4 from HobbyKing are crap, I had a total of eight of them and they all puffed just sitting there, two of them lost a cell that just went dead. HK batteries are also over rated on their discharge, a rated 35C constant couldn't hold more than 3.3 volts per cell at a 20C discharge. Sorry Bluefang, Lithium Polymer is not a good option in my book, especially those from Hobby King. Now if you had experience with both a Ping battery and a battery you made with HobbyKing lipos and you tell me that HK lipos are better than Ping, then that's not encouraging.

 

[Arlo1]

I have over 350 cycles on my Hobby king turnigy 5000mah 6s 20c Lipo and its still over 80% life. I have over charged 3 cells to over 4.35 and discharged 3 cells to bellow 1 volt 2 times. This is before I realized its best to leave the cell monitors unplugged when not in use. The thing with HK lipo for an e bike is you are going to be under using it quite a bit so its not going to loose its life as fast as in a RC car type use! I haven't even needed to balance since last Xmas!

 

[mistercrash]

You can tell me that you have some HK lipos that are going strong after 350 cycles all you want, I'm sorry I'm not convinced that every lipo you get from HK will do the same. Yes some lipos from HK will do much better than other lipos from HK and that's what bothers me. IMHO, a lipo that gives 80% of what it used to is not a strong lipo anymore. The quality control of the cells used is inconsistent. HK has really good prices on a lot of stuff and I buy a lot from them but when it comes to their lipos, it's a gamble. You may get something good or you may not. Some members in here enjoy tinkering and experimenting and reporting their findings in here which makes for an invaluable bank of data, I'm not after something to tinker on constantly to pass the time. This scooter I have is not a hobby to me, it's a necessity to go to work everyday and run errands. It HAS to be rock solid and very reliable as much as I can make it. Lithium Polymer is great for some stuff I have but I'm not going to put them in my only means of transportation. The chemistry is not suited for what I want. From what I know, Lithium Polymer don't do so well in cold temperature also. I'm up here living in the Great White North and my scooter sleeps in an unheated, uninsulated garage.
Running fine for a couple weeks and then something goes wrong so you work on it for a whole day then it runs fine for another week and fails again so you work on it again to make it go isn't something I wish to do.
I hope I can find the definite answers for what I need for a very reliable scooter that gives the performance I wish to have. If not, then I'll have to think about going back to fossil fuels I really wish I don't have to.

 

[Arlo1]

It HAS to be rock solid and very reliable as much as I can make it. Lithium Polymer is great for some stuff I have but I'm not going to put them in my only means of transportation. The chemistry is not suited for what I want. From what I know, Lithium Polymer don't do so well in cold temperature also. I'm up here living in the Great White North and my scooter sleeps in an unheated, uninsulated garage.

I hope I can find the definite answers for what I need for a very reliable scooter that gives the performance I wish to have. If not, then I'll have to think about going back to fossil fuels I really wish I don't have to.

Yes Lipo will not work well in your cold winters.
As for HK lipo vs the rest you are right they are cheaper for a reason but I wont spend $2000 for 1000-1500 wh of lipo other wise I mite as well burn gas! I just got 1110wh worth of lipo for about 350 shipped from HK! That makes the e bike worth while for my brother then as batteries get better he will replace them!
You might have a hard time finding a battery for -20- -30 degC weather! You could have something to keep it warn wrapped around it like a heated vest!

 

[mistercrash]

I wont spend $2000 for 1000-1500 wh of lipo other wise I mite as well burn gas!

I understand your point here. But $2000 is what I saved up to now by selling my car and riding an E-scooter all summer since the beginning of May. Two more months and I will have reimbursed myself the price of the scooter entirely. Running electric brings savings and it's cool. Now If I were to go with a gas scooter instead of going back to a car, I would still save money, maybe $300 a month instead of 400+ (cost of running the car I had was), I haven't calculated the cost of running a gas scooter. I just have become very passionate about E vehicles and want to run with one, I got sick and tired of the oil companies gouging my wallet every week. I love the no noise, no emissions attributes of E vehicles. There has to be a way, I don't want much, just go 31/32 mph, enough torque to keep that speed going uphill and a range of 35 miles. All this in a reliable package. That's not too much to ask :lol:

When it gets to -20 C up here, I won't be running the scooter, it'll be in storage for the winter. But I want to run it until the temps fall down to -5 C.

 

[Arlo1]

I wont spend $2000 for 1000-1500 wh of lipo other wise I mite as well burn gas!

I understand your point here. But $2000 is what I saved up to now by selling my car and riding an E-scooter all summer since the beginning of May. Two more months and I will have reimbursed myself the price of the scooter entirely. Running electric brings savings and it's cool. Now If I were to go with a gas scooter instead of going back to a car, I would still save money, maybe $300 a month instead of 400+ (cost of running the car I had was), I haven't calculated the cost of running a gas scooter. I just have become very passionate about E vehicles and want to run with one, I got sick and tired of the oil companies gouging my wallet every week. I love the no noise, no emissions attributes of E vehicles. There has to be a way, I don't want much, just go 31/32 mph, enough torque to keep that speed going uphill and a range of 35 miles. All this in a reliable package. That's not too much to ask :lol:

When it gets to -20 C up here, I won't be running the scooter, it'll be in storage for the winter. But I want to run it until the temps fall down to -5 C.

I run my turnigy Hobby king lipo to -5 deg C I just think you would find Hobby king lipo to save you even more money. If you replaced the 400 dollar pack 2 times and still save money. But I have been riding mine for over 2 years and over 350 cycles and it is still doing me great.

 

[Gordo]

I almost bought a used Motorino several times, but each time, the sellers were too busy when I was available, or did not show up as arranged. Lucky for me because in my frustration, I found a very knowledgeable and helpful gentleman who had several scooters he let me try and sold me a good scooter for a good price. With 20 X 40Ah LiFePO4, it will do an honest 80kmph and go 60km at 60kmph. All this for half the price of a Motorino.
Ray;
You do not seem to understand the answers to your questions that Arlo is giving you?
Quit comparing apples to oranges. Lipo is not lead. 20Ah Lead is not 20Ah Lipo.
From what little I know, 10Ah Lipo=20Ah lead.
Arlo is a very patient guy, even with old dough heads like me. I suggest you listen. You will have more success if you learn that skill.
We see the lead heads come here knowing everything there is to know about EV's. If they hang around long enough, they learn what to use to have a reliable ride.

 

[mistercrash]

Well I have to thank Arlo1 for his patience then You're probably right, I don't fully understand what was said in here and I'm kind of stubborn. My apologies. I am a bit scared to put lipos in my scooter but I should go past that. Thanks Gordo, also bluefang who suggested lipos and Arlo, I'm seriously going to look into your suggestions and find out what I need to go lipo. It IS probably the best solution for what I'm after. I didn't really want to build my own battery pack but if it's the best way then I should just bite the bullet and do it.

Thanks again
Ray

 

[Gordo]

Why not consider idiot proof 48V 30 or 40Ah LiFePo4? ThunderSky or GS. I am partial to TS because I have a local distributor with 12 month backup. With these cell and not going below 3V you should get 1000's of cycles, not 100's. 16 cells (48V) X 40Ah will cost @ $800. TS cells will give 2C for short bursts. I think you can use Ping pouches and pay @$600. IIRC the guys say Ping is good for 1.5C. Lipo from HK is still the best bargain, IF YOU SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME READING on how to care for them by monitoring what you are doing.
Along with my 20 X 40Ah TS in my scooter, I also have an idiot proof 2 X LiMnPo4 48V X 12Ah for my bikes.
For me, learning something new has always been a double treat. I may have a slow leak in my recent memory, so my theory is to get as much in asap, so it quickly becomes old memory and I'll still be able to find it next year.
Enjoy your ride.

 

[mistercrash]

...

 

[Gordo]

Maybe I read too much into your first post?? You wrote; "Lithium Polymer is great for some stuff I have but I'm not going to put them in my only means of transportation. The chemistry is not suited for what I want."
I understood you to want 100% reliable plug and play. That is what I describe as "idiot proof". No touching, no thinking, no monitoring and no balancing.
That is how I started and have not yet got to playing with HK bricks. I did come to the conclusion that my LifePo4 needed a BMS AS MANY HERE AT ES HAD TOLD ME FROM DAY ONE. I am very happy with my BMS from evassemble. It was easy to install and works perfectly. Every cell is exactly 3.45V.
I do not have a clue what my LiMnPo4 is doing? I charge it, ride it and charge it again. I've never even checked the voltage.
I have no fear of HK bricks, as I have an ace in the hole, Arlo, just down the street.

 

[Arlo1]

Thanks for the props gordo. I find if you are patient and willing to learn lipo is not that bad. Its only a bit more maintenance then other types. But the power density and the performance you can have is incredible! And with turnigy at 29cents a wh I would not waste my time with any other type at this point.

But YOU SHOULD ONLY USE LIPO IF YOU FEAL UP TO IT! It is not for everyone.

 

[mistercrash]

Well the idea of my scooter running on lipo is starting to make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Especially since I got confirmation from Mike that he is willing to make these lipo modules for others in any size they need. Once the lipos are inside the modules and some silicon is applied to the top where the balancing tabs pokes out, there's not much air inside the module. With no air, not much flames. Maybe a lot of smoke and some swelling. But like it was said, if good care is taken on the lipos, there won't be any problems.

 

[mistercrash]

I thought about how I use my scooter and the time I have to take care of it and made my choice on a LiFePO battery. Lipos are the most powerful option but I just don't have the time to take care of them properly. I'll get a LiFePO this spring, no sense getting it just before I put the scooter away when the snow starts to fall and sticks. I have the winter to think about the voltage I'll go to. Stay at 48 or go up to 60 with a new Lyen controller. I read I could just change the caps in my present controller but I'd rather have a Lyen. Now I spent part of this weekend changing the phase wires. I went all out and started from inside the hub motor and installed some 10 gauge wires. Some nice silicon multi strand stuff from HobbyKing. What a dirty, PITA job that was but it's finally done. I went out for a 10 minute ride to see how everything goes. No noticeable improvement on speed or torque :| and something weird happened in the first minute of the ride. The power cut out for a fraction of a second twice. I went 500 feet and had the first cut out, another 500 feet and the second cut out. Then the scooter ran fine for the rest of the ride. What could be the reason for those two cut outs?

 

[Gordo]

and something weird happened in the first minute of the ride. The power cut out for a fraction of a second twice. I went 500 feet and had the first cut out, another 500 feet and the second cut out. Then the scooter ran fine for the rest of the ride. What could be the reason for those two cut outs?

You will find many people have reported this event. It happens when you have a fully charged battery because of HVC. Once the surface charge dissipates, the problem is gone.

Have you read this thread? http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29469
I bought a bunch of them. $40 landed at my door. As you can read, they do 1500W all day without smoke. Guys are pulling double that until they kill their batteries which only last 15 minute.
I'll see if I can play santa and toss one out of the plane on Dec 25, as I pass over ontariario.

 

[mistercrash]

I'll see if I can play santa and toss one out of the plane on Dec 25, as I pass over ontariario.

I didn't read all the thread, I got tired at page 14 or 15. But very interesting how some people have great success with such a cheap generic controller. I'll wear my bike helmet on Dec. 25, if you happen to let one fall off, I don't want to get hit on the head.

As for the cut offs, it's nice to know that it's normal. Thanks for putting my mind at ease.

 

[Gordo]

There is a separate thread on how to modify it for 48V also. Take an SMC off the board and put either another fixed resistor on or a pot so it can be adjusted for any voltage.

 

[motorino magnet]

Hi from Ontario Canada ! Great forum ! Been looking at lot and this one is the best !

Grateful for some answers to some noob questions.Please,just want to make my moto better,longer and a little faster to make it safer.

Can I buy one of these 60 volt 20ah-maybe another 10 ah too- and just drop it into my motorino and drive with more distance , more speed?
(stock sla 48 volt 20 + 14 ah XPN)

Can they lay on there side under the seat?

Can you parralell two packs of different ah ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60V-20AH-LiFePO4-Pack-BMS-6A-Charger-Motorcycle-/250931727980?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item3a6cb24e6c

Should I buy a new controller ? Which one ?

How difficult will hookup and installation be?

Is a cycle analist hard to hook up and which one should i buy?

Learned a lot from your forum.Thankyou

where do we donate to the forum?

ps-will the regen affect the new battery?