My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

[tsellers]

I found that Frey apparently goes by the advice they are given by their freight forwarding service, which is not always the most accurate or in the best interest of the client. Due to the length of time the battery will take, if I were in your place, I'd stick with the original shipment method.

 

[mewanderinghome]

Ok, so which of you long-time owners wants to share your favorite programming settings? @barbarossa ? @Hardcore ? Anyone else?

 

[Tom]

Favorite programming setting was my credit card number to order the aftermarket controller.

 

[mewanderinghome]

Favorite programming setting was my credit card number to order the aftermarket controller.

Thx. I debated it. But I'm not $900+void-my-2-yr-warranty unsatisfied. In fact I'm actually ok with it as-is. Yet I'm sure some long-time riders have found what they feel are better settings, and I'd like to try em

If I ever grow unsatisfied with those (after the warranty is up), I might try the Innotrace. Especially if the cost has come down a little. But for me that money might still be better spent on DT Swiss wheels...POSSIBLY even toward a Rohloff or Kindernay IGH.

 

[barbarossa]

Ok, so which of you long-time owners wants to share your favorite programming settings? @barbarossa ? @Hardcore ? Anyone else?

anyways. meanwhile I don't use the original controller anymore but also Innotrace controller. but I still have the settings of original controller. I used these settings with around 45 amps so I don't know how these settings will be at original 30 amps and I recognized that the Bafang motor versions will react a little different. goal was to make it smoother. testing these settings you will miss the "boost" at start but the motor will ramp up better - better for trails and low rpms - I was used the original settings and first thought the motor has no power anymore but instead it is just smoother - it takes a while to get used back to a "normal" behaviour if you use the original settings for a long time so I recommend to use these settings for a longer time to get used to them. higher rpms were still a little problem. also the motor still runs 1 second after not pedaling sometimes but not as often as with original settings.
each controller/torque sensor might be a little different - so playing around especially with torque delta voltage settings might be necessary.
finally these settings should be a "copy" of Innotrace controller but of course it is far away.

main part might be the torque settings page:

Delta voltage will bring some boost in the lowest setting, followed by higher delta values for higher rpms.


I "deactivated" the return kg/KeepCur which are corresponding, makes no sense in my opinion. the other values grow depending on the pedal torque speed.
You always have pairs:
Start(kg)=MinCur(%) => start pedalling
Full(kg)=MaxCur(%) => max pedalling
Return(kg)=KeepCur(%) => you are already riding and then you pedal
CurDecay => the lower the higher the rpms





finally PAS settings page:

 

[craigiet]

My bike was due for delivery September 20th, i's a "fully loaded" ex with many upgrades.

I emailed Cecliia on Friday asking about progress.

I received this from Cecilia on Saturday
"Hi Keith,

I am writing to tell you that we found recently the railway shipping to European countries is not reliable enough
and the shipping time is not very stable, it’s around 45days or even much longer.
So for future orders, we will recommend air shipping to Europe as a priority shipping way, as air shipping way has recovered in most of European countries now.

For your present order, as we concluded to deliver by railway shipping earlier that air shipping was stopped for past several months.
In order to support our customer better, and ensure you receive your bike earlier and safer.
We have a special support to switch railway shipping to air shipping for earlier placed orders.
There will be around 350USD cost more for us to ship by air compare with by railway to Europe.
Bike will be delivered by express like TNT, battery will be separately delivered by special line for battery shipping to you. shipping time is around 15-20 days to you.
We will not charge you the extra cost for air shipping, but there will be around 100-200USD taxes you need to pay for the bike arrive to you. Please note.
You can decide whether you would like to switch to air shipping or just keep the train shipping.
Anyway, we will guarantee your interest.
Wait for your confirmation.
Best regards
Cecilia "

I'm not happy about the "100-200 USD" tax mostly because I'm aware of the "Anti-Dumping Taxation" I could be liable for if the bike is sent via air-freight. The "Anti-Dumping Tax" can amount to 80% of the bike

Hi, I'm waiting on my am1000 to be delivered also but still have 10days on lead time, I'm in the UK,Scotland could you please tell me what you decide and outcome. I would probably pay the extra 100,200 usd, if its guaranteed to arrive without any hidden costs ie dumping tax. Thank you, Craig

 

[mewanderinghome]

I used these settings with around 45 amps so I don't know how these settings will be at original 30 amps and I recognized that the Bafang motor versions will react a little different. goal was to make it smoother

As always, you come through barbarossa. So many valuable contributors on this forum. I think you lead the pack. Thanks

 

[FlyingFinn]

I used these settings with around 45 amps so I don't know how these settings will be at original 30 amps and I recognized that the Bafang motor versions will react a little different. goal was to make it smoother

As always, you come through barbarossa. So many valuable contributors on this forum. I think you lead the pack. Thanks

Exactly. If you feed the motor with less than the minimums on this chart (like 1-5 Amps) at startup what it will cause is minor vibration at startup from standstill. This happens even with Innotrace controller with ECO1.

No matter what Bafang Ultra can’t be made as ultra smooth as Shimano. The Innotrace controller helps alot but this is still a ”Diesel engine” with given benefits in climbing but downsides in ”trial” type slow but accurate driving.

 

[scrambler]

No matter what Bafang Ultra can’t be made as ultra smooth as Shimano.

What about the Archon X1 controller?
It is reported to make is quite smooth.

 

[FlyingFinn]

No matter what Bafang Ultra can’t be made as ultra smooth as Shimano.

What about the Archon X1 controller?
It is reported to make is quite smooth.

I have the Archon. We are getting closer but not quite. Startup from standstill is still rougher than with Shimano. Not by much, but a little.

Archon is a good buy. Don’t get me wrong. Lightyears ahead of the stock Bafang.

Bafang PAS sensor isn’t as refined than with Western motors. It requires more pressure to register an input. That’s the reason why it can be never as smooth as Shimano.

 

[scrambler]

Thank you for the feedback

 

[barbarossa]

No matter what Bafang Ultra can’t be made as ultra smooth as Shimano.

What about the Archon X1 controller?
It is reported to make is quite smooth.

I have the Archon. We are getting closer but not quite. Startup from standstill is still rougher than with Shimano. Not by much, but a little.

Archon is a good buy. Don’t get me wrong. Lightyears ahead of the stock Bafang.

Bafang PAS sensor isn’t as refined than with Western motors. It requires more pressure to register an input. That’s the reason why it can be never as smooth as Shimano.

perhaps it is worth to mention that in my opinion Shimano is very special. there is Shimano and there are the others including Innotrace, Bosch, etc.
Shimano seems to "predict" what torque the rider will use - really fascinating - I don't know how Shimano could realize this. Innotrace for example needs 1 rotation to analyze the torque and then reacts (developer is well aware of this, I spoke to him about this coincidentally last week. he had several approaches to realize the start from standstill and finally decided to use the actual way).
I also have a bike with Bosch motor (older Performance Line without E-MTB mode). directly compared I prefer the Innotrace controller concerning the start from standstill. it takes sometimes "a felt eternity" until Bosch motor gives power from standstill...Innotrace is much quicker and smoother.

 

[HerrDoktor]

Hi, I'm waiting on my am1000 to be delivered also but still have 10days on lead time, I'm in the UK,Scotland could you please tell me what you decide and outcome. I would probably pay the extra 100,200 usd, if its guaranteed to arrive without any hidden costs ie dumping tax. Thank you, Craig

I've just asked Cecilia "Before I consent, when do I pay the taxes and what determines whether it is closer to $100 or $200?" She's adamant these will be the only taxes payable. I specifically mentioned "Dumping Tax"

 

[tsellers]

I've just asked Cecilia "Before I consent, when do I pay the taxes and what determines whether it is closer to $100 or $200?" She's adamant these will be the only taxes payable. I specifically mentioned "Dumping Tax"

That's impressive that the sales rep in China knows how the Custom's Officials in each of these different countries may impose the various taxes and duties that may apply to their jurisdictions. For example in Canada, not even the CSB officials are consistent in the handling of the tariffs and duties, and if you hire the broker that your shipping company offers, more often than not they make a mistake by applying the wrong HST and commodity codes and you end up paying more than you should, then face a lot of lengthy paper work to try and get a refund.

 

[Limbs]

Hi, I'm waiting on my am1000 to be delivered also but still have 10days on lead time, I'm in the UK,Scotland could you please tell me what you decide and outcome. I would probably pay the extra 100,200 usd, if its guaranteed to arrive without any hidden costs ie dumping tax. Thank you, Craig

Not sure if this is what you're after, but, I am also in the UK, I recently purchased an electric hub kit from Ali-Express, it was around 360 USD & I had the option to pay 18 USD extra for the DDP service, which meant the seller paid the taxes. My kit duly arrived without anything else to pay.

What import tax you get charged would depend on how customs categorise, it when it arrives in the UK, but I was looking the other day, as I have been considering importing a bike, and most bicycle parts seem to be 4.5%. On top of that you're going to pay 20% VAT, plus the courier will normally sting you for initially paying the customs charges on your behalf and dealing with your paperwork. All of those fees are charged on the cost of the bike PLUS the cost of shipping, so if you can get a DDP deal, it might be worth it.

 

[HerrDoktor]

Cecilia is adamant
"Cecilia Li: 2020-09-13 11:54
You will pay when you receive the goods, and the tax is about 100 to 200 dollars. Each region is different."
She also says "The delivery time for battery is about 15-20 days"

Looks like I'm pretty hamstrung. Pay the $$$ and get the bike in 15 to 20 days or don't pay the $$$ and get the bike 40 to 45 days later [sometimes longer]

 

[Limbs]

Reading this https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/anti-dumping-duty-measures I would say that dumping tax does not apply as, I assume that Frey sell the bikes for the same price in China.

Import duty at around 4.5% would come to around 200 USD, but I would be very surprised if you don't get charged VAT on top of that & probably courier handling fees as well.

ETA: I have never heard of taxes being any different depending on mode of transport.

 

[FlyingFinn]

Reading this https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/anti-dumping-duty-measures I would say that dumping tax does not apply as, I assume that Frey sell the bikes for the same price in China.

Import duty at around 4.5% would come to around 200 USD, but I would be very surprised if you don't get charged VAT on top of that & probably courier handling fees as well.

ETA: I have never heard of taxes being any different depending on mode of transport.

I will have to pay import taxes for the replacement frame that Frey sent to me. In EU you must send the original broken part back to china in order to have a free import for the free replacement. Wonderful. Luckily Frey put 60 USD as the value of the frame. Let’s see if the Customs will buy that price...

 

[JohnnyEppelseed]

I am really astonished about your post... If you found such bad quality it sounds like really dangerous for our safe..
I just ordered two FREY fat 1000 with four batteries 48v 21ah.
If I had before those information probably I did not buy the second batteries....
I think that FREY must guarantee the clients with a hight and safe standard and quality, not only for bilkes but also for batteries especially because those are sealed and sensitive parts!!

Hi,
i think it is not Freys fault.
it is a typical "Chinese problem".

there are 2 good products to combine:
- Reention Dorado MaxID battery case for 80 cells, a good case i think. good space between the cells and the cages are perfect. also enough room for a small BMS
- LG 18650 MJ1 cell (or the now used Samsung cell). With a CDR of 10 amps it runs best at 5amps. this cell runs forever if only charged to 90% and running at a normal heat.

lets say we need 30 amps (Bafang Ultra). so 5x6= 30amps, with 78 cells you have a perfect match using 14s6p.
everything is perfect or ?

but what happens: the manufacturer (not Frey i think) builds this battery like any other battery - only difference: specified cells. this manufacturer uses cheaper nickel plated steel strips so he can save $8 per battery. and the manufacturer uses weak/less serial connections that are really needed. so what happens ? last cell before and after each of the 2 strip serial connection gets hot/warmer (all current goes through). these last cells will age faster. and therefore all cells in this cell block will age faster. and therefore the whole battery will age faster.

2 good products become a disaster in that way. and finally you have a 10 amps continous/ 20 amps peak battery - which i would rate this battery.
to illustrate it, i think 7mm strips were used (taken from another thread):
efficiency.JPG

but hey you can check it: my new battery (own built) has a voltage drop of around 2 volts running at 30 amps (90% charged = 4.1volts per cell group - i never charge up to 4.2 volts. and 30 amps = which is the original max setting of Bafang Ultra controller). i have higher current cells in 5p. but anyways with 6p the current is only 5 amps per cell instead of 6 amps per cell for my 5p battery. on the other hand internal resistance of the Samsung and LG cells used by Frey is a little higher and also the voltage drop. anyways lets say a voltage drop of 4 volts should be the maximum for the 48 volts 13s6p battery (sport mode, constant engagement, full power= max watts for a longer distance). now i am interested what you will messure with your 48v battery (what your display will show as min voltage) ?

anyways I did not care about it in the past and had a lot fun with my 48 volts battery !
Sometimes it's better not to know everything. :lol:

and perhaps now they build better batteries ! (with better serial connections, my battery was very old, 3 years i think)
perhaps someone with a newer 48v battery can give some information about his voltage drop...

Hi, barbarossa.
I ordered an extra battery case for my AM1000 (theoretically arriving late December) and would like to build my battery beforehand. Can you remember the configuration/orientation of the cells when you did the tear-down of your 48 volt 13s6p battery (LG MJ1 cells). Was the case a Dorado Max?
Recommendation for a BMS? Advice, words of wisdom?
Thanks,
John

 

[boytitan]

What is wrong with using Topeak beam rack. I used it on my e-bike trip around island of Shikoku. It was good for about 40 pounds and I tested it with over 100 lbs. by sitting on it. I made over 800 miles with no problems. Once you have a rack you can attache a fender to it.

The racks move side to side no matter how much you tighten it eventually bringing the rear pannier to rub the tire.

 

[barbarossa]

Hi, barbarossa.
I ordered an extra battery case for my AM1000 (theoretically arriving late December) and would like to build my battery beforehand. Can you remember the configuration/orientation of the cells when you did the tear-down of your 48 volt 13s6p battery (LG MJ1 cells). Was the case a Dorado Max?
Recommendation for a BMS? Advice, words of wisdom?
Thanks,
John

Hi John,
Unfortunately I did not take any photos. but yes, it is a Reention Max with 80 cells max - to be honest meanwhile I have three Reention Max batteries, 15S5P , 14S5P and 19S4P
6P -> cell groups have to be spread across different cell holder groups (max 16 cells per holder pair). not easy to get good serial connections and many "inner" cell group connections.
Building a 5P battery is much easier, 4P a little harder, 6P the hardest, I think. 5P => you can carefully put it together like a sandwich, each holder pair after the other.

I use Speedict Neptune 15 and Neptune 20 BMS (https://www.speedict.com/). I am happy with these and Neptune 15 fits into Reention Max battery case without modification - tight but it works. Neptune 20 BMS also fits but only if you take away the 4x cell row at the top holder pair.
here an example of Speedict 15 in my Reention max with good old Bafang Ultra Innotrace controller really nice android app included :

 

[tsellers]

I use Speedict Neptune 15 and Neptune 20 BMS

I see those cost about $188.00 for the 20, I suppose I was a bit surprised by the price. Last Dec I got some 20A 13S and 14S BT BMS units with UART/485. Although the price is about $33.00, I have yet to try them, so have no idea how suitable they might be.

 

[barbarossa]

I use Speedict Neptune 15 and Neptune 20 BMS

I see those cost about $188.00 for the 20, I suppose I was a bit surprised by the price. Last Dec I got some 20A 13S and 14S BT BMS units with UART/485. Although the price is about $33.00, I have yet to try them, so have no idea how suitable they might be.

in fact not cheap. but the electric components and workmanship - nothing to compare with any chinese BMS I have seen so far.
but of course it depends. if you just wanna use your original 28 amps motor and just need an inexpensive BMS why not.
I only charge up to 90% to prolong cell life. so most of the cheap BMS won't ever do any balancing. I also hate cheap android apps if any exists for those BMS. and of course up to 99 max amps possible - I need up to around 70 amps - in small dimensions to be able to put it in the Reention battery. so the only solution was the Neptune 15 for me and I was not disappointed. support by Danny from Speedict is also perfect. so it is not a "must have" but a nice piece of engineering - for me it was worth every penny. but sure not for everyone.

 

[tsellers]

I've got about 5 of the cheap Chinese non-BT BMS in batteries at the moment, max draw is 30A. Some are on their second year, others are about 10 months. As I also normally only charge to 90%, I have to manually check the cells for balance so I leave the BMS harness exposed to facilitate not only reading each cell with a MM, but applying a manual charge to the cell as well. I'll also charge to full every couple of months, so you either get used to adjusting the cut off voltage of the chargers, or use two different ones. That's where I'm hopeful that a BT BMS will make it more convenient to monitor the cells and correct the balance manually if so required. We're planning to buy about 1200 cells soon and get some more BMS at the same time, not a lot of info at the moment that may make it easier to find decent BMS at a reasonable price, kind of learn as you go.

 

[barbarossa]

I've got about 5 of the cheap Chinese non-BT BMS in batteries at the moment, max draw is 30A. Some are on their second year, others are about 10 months. As I also normally only charge to 90%, I have to manually check the cells for balance so I leave the BMS harness exposed to facilitate not only reading each cell with a MM, but applying a manual charge to the cell as well. I'll also charge to full every couple of months, so you either get used to adjusting the cut off voltage of the chargers, or use two different ones. That's where I'm hopeful that a BT BMS will make it more convenient to monitor the cells and correct the balance manually if so required. We're planning to buy about 1200 cells soon and get some more BMS at the same time, not a lot of info at the moment that may make it easier to find decent BMS at a reasonable price, kind of learn as you go.

yep, these cheap BMS work. some of them are interesting and you can even find a spec for the mosfets and balancer chip - unfortunately this is not normal. but always too big for Reention Max - Ant BMS for example. but this Ant BMS seems to have a high defective rate. 30A BMS normally also takes peaks up to 50A so it's suitable for most motors/batteries.

but hey, you really take care of your battery...wow...!!! I am impressed.

wow, but 1200 cells !!! you have big plans !!!
of course choosing the right BMS it depends where you wanna put in the cells, battery type, current etc.

but in the end you are absolutely right : "to find decent BMS at a reasonable price" = that's the point and also the problem...

I wanted the features of Neptune 15 and a BMS that fits the Reention battery and of course as cheap as possible. mmmhhhh... after a while I gave up and just ordered the Neptune