My first build

[Brushlessboy16]

Hello all my name is ben and I love anything and everything brushless
Im a freshman at Drexel University in Philadelphia PA studying a double major of
Been into brushless RC cars for years now, Im a sponsored driver and know my way around electronics well so I dont need the laymans version of explinations (usually).

Im planning on building up my Mongoose sector mtb to:

A. keep me from going into brushless withdraw from being at school.
b. To keep up with traffic here on campus

I'd like to see the bike do 30mph

I plan on using the following.

Turnigy 80-100 130kv motor
12s lipo (44v nom.)

Going to have a 2 stage gear reduction setup running through a Sickbikes one way crank


Primary reduction be:

10t sprocket on the motor
40t on jack shaft for a 4:1 reduction

ON the other end of the jackshaft will be a Sickbikes Free wheel adapter and an oddessy 13t freewheel which will be chained to the 48t chainwheel on the crank for a 3.69:1 ratio

Off the second crank chainwheel(24t) down to the stock rear cassette and Derailer.

Total Gear reduction is about 10.5:1 and on 44v its set to run about 5000 motor rpm and 37mph without loading.

I have yet to select a speed controller, any suggestions, I was looking at a lyens esc or a cheapo off ebay, beef up the traces etc.

Questions:
Is my FDR acceptable?
any body have any used parts they dont want

-Ben



*cad drawings etc up soon...

 

[AussieJester]

You will get alot more than 30mph with that motor too, i have one myself 45mph is easily doable without the motor breaking a sweat
the ONLY rc speed controller that works well with this motor is the Castle Creations HV160 many have tried others many have blown them
the hv160 is leaps and bounds ahead of any of them, they are pricey but if you go cheap you will be buying more than one...other alternative
is fitting hall sensors to the motor and running a more conventional e-bike controller heap of info on the forum on this.

Best of luck...oh...and welcome to Endless Sphere.

KiM

 

[Brushlessboy16]

I read your entire build thread the other day, what is the total reduction of the Shumacher drive? I wish I could afford one

Im probably gonna end up with hall sensors and a bike esc... I run the castle Mamba Monster ESC in my rc cars, and beta tested the Mamba monster XL in a 30lb rc car.

I just dont want to put much strain on the batteries.
probably going to start off with 5800mah 12s

Does anyone have a link to the installation of halls into an 80-100?

I want the torque to do some uban riding here in philly

thanks

-Ben

 

[AussieJester]

I read your entire build thread the other day, what is the total reduction of the Shumacher drive? I wish I could afford one

Beg borrow and steal they are worth every cent IMHO...mine is altered from stock ratio wise originally they are in the 4:1 range i believe
(single stage reduction that is, not sure what the two stage reduction ratio are)

Checkout Burties thread he has alot on fitting hall sensors, i'm sure ES member GWhy will also be happy to provide you with both halls and advice
on setting them up, he actually sells a lil pre-made potted hall adapter for the motors that fits externally for a very good price. Hes a helpful
"Nigel" just dont buy into his 6fet Infineon running the 80-100 130kv motors at 8kw sustained, still waiting for proof of this aren't we GWhy
(and obviously i wont let him forget it either hehehe) ...:: raps fingers on desk :: :lol:

KiM

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Thank you for the advice

Ill shoot gwhy a PM

-Ben

Any body have a second hand 80-100 or sprockets etc :lol:

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Has anyone had expirience with this esc?

http://cgi.ebay.com/72V-800W-Brushless-E-bike-Scooter-Controller-Hall-/160443549766?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255b2e4846

72v 800w unit from e crazyman?


I know i would probably have to do the shunt mod and beef up the traces, Im pretty handy with my soldering station so it should be no probem... But for 15 bucks more I can get the 72v 1500watt

Could I get away with the 800watt?

 

[gwhy!]

Hi BB and welcome to ES,
All the info you need to know about and showing various ways of adding halls to outrunners are shown in the thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15686

If there is anything additional you want to ask then please do.

As AJ has already said forget the 6fet controller ( will do 8kw :lol: but will never be reliable pushing this sort of power to be 100% reliable use no more than 4kw ), Some people have blown 12fet moddified controllers , but I think with careful mods and good selection on fets to use they should be 100% reliable upto around 7kw and anything above that then you will be getting into the will it wont it blow territory (with stock fets the one 12fet I have been playing with one of these big motors have been 100% good @4kw There are other mods made to the controller) with better than stock fets this should be easy to push it upto 7kw and be reliable( I have not tried and tested this with the bigger motors so there may be other issues coming into play ) .

Edit: Burtie on this forum uses ( Ithink a 12fet modified controller but I dont know at what levels, paired with on of these bigger motors)

 

[Brushlessboy16]

THank you Gwhy! !

Ill look into them. do you have any second hand units you dont want or need?

 

[gwhy!]

I dont sorry,
Here is a link to a standard 12fet controller http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/48V-600W-brus...ltDomain_0&hash=item45ee67f612#ht_1203wt_1050

There is lots of info on this forum that will enable you to upgrade this controller ( but it is scattered all over the place ) when the time comes ask here and There are plenty of people on here that can point you to the relivent threads or give you the info that you need.

Edit: As I have said in my perivious post The above controller can be pushed to 4kw without any major outlay cost just good use of a soldering iron, have very good air flow around the controller and a bit of re-programming.

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Awesome, thank you for your advice

I like the mod-ability of the 12FET esc

But Id like to have the 72v 800w unit to have the voltage headroom incase i want (when i grow the balls) to go with more power lol


I'd Like to get the hall sensors internally mounted in my motor for a cleaner installation.

Working on the cad model as we speak

 

[Byte]

Hi BB from RC-Monster! I'm looking forward to see your build!

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you need the 80-100's very low 130-kV thats fine, but if you can spec a gear-down that can use 170-kV without adding significant complexity or cost, keep in mind the 80-85 may be a viable option. It is slightly shorter and lighter, which may help packaging (since you putting together a crank-drive like Cyclone/Elation)

You might even keep the same gear-down reduction, but use a slightly lower voltage (with the higher kV in the smaller motor), which could perhaps save you some money. It takes two 6S packs to get the 12S you want, and "I think" two 5S (10S) packs would be 36V, and two 4S (8S) would be 28V.

I 'think' the 10S would be slightly faster than your original spec (at 170-kV), and the 8S would be slightly slower (but still damn fast).

Since you are driving the cranks, the motor will have the benefit of the bikes gears, so amp-draw will be fairly low (for low controller heat). If you add a rear-gear cluster with an 11-tooth as the smallest gear, your top speed would be VERY good with only 28V (using the 170-kV).

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5141

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5142

 

[gwhy!]

Awesome, thank you for your advice

I like the mod-ability of the 12FET esc

But Id like to have the 72v 800w unit to have the voltage headroom incase i want (when i grow the balls) to go with more power lol


I'd Like to get the hall sensors internally mounted in my motor for a cleaner installation.

Working on the cad model as we speak

The 48v controller is also pretty straight forward to up the voltage with ( replace the big caps with higher voltage and also change the dropper resistor), its another well documented mod on this forum. If you want only a top speed of 30mph the motor is way over kill, but like you have said it will give room to grow and mod. Good luck and looking forward to what you come up with

 

[Brushlessboy16]

If you need the 80-100's very low 130-kV thats fine, but if you can spec a gear-down that can use 170-kV without adding significant complexity or cost, keep in mind the 80-85 may be a viable option. It is slightly shorter and lighter, which may help packaging (since you putting together a crank-drive like Cyclone/Elation)

You might even keep the same gear-down reduction, but use a slightly lower voltage (with the higher kV in the smaller motor), which could perhaps save you some money. It takes two 6S packs to get the 12S you want, and "I think" two 5S (10S) packs would be 36V, and two 4S (8S) would be 28V.

I 'think' the 10S would be slightly faster than your original spec (at 170-kV), and the 8S would be slightly slower (but still damn fast).

Since you are driving the cranks, the motor will have the benefit of the bikes gears, so amp-draw will be fairly low (for low controller heat). If you add a rear-gear cluster with an 11-tooth as the smallest gear, your top speed would be VERY good with only 28V (using the 170-kV).

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5141

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5142

Thank you for the detailed post Spinning mags

Im not dead set on the 80-100. But I just want to have something that has the torque that I would like. The 80-85 may be the answer for packaging. Im going to mount the motor and primary gear reduction to bolt to the front of the Downtube.

Its a Pain in the @ss trying to get my gear ratios right and keep the sprocket sizes down...

More to come-

Hey BYTE! nice to see someone familiar here


Cad software is warming up....

 

[Brushlessboy16]

A pictures worth a thousand words, and about 2 hours of cad work.

 

[spinningmagnets]

You might want to consider the option of using a toothed-belt as the primary drive. If you are set on using a chain on the primary-drive for higher strength, consider the #219 chain (smaller links than bicycle chain, but VERY strong).

A few years ago, Eric Peltzer did a very good write-up on his E-bike development. To get the motor into an efficient RPM (3,000-ish), he had a tiny motor cog, and a very big sprocket on the rear hub. He found that it had a lot of chain noise from the tiny cog at such high RPM's, but increasing the tiny cog even a little would require an even bigger hub-sprocket.

He installed a two-stage drive. The first stage was a toothed belt from the motor to an intermediate jack-shaft, which was much quieter at high RPMs. The final drive from the jack-shaft to the hub was a chain because it was strong, cheap, and easy to adjust its length. This also allowed the respective pulleys and sprockets to be much smaller and more affordable.

There was a long discussion a few years ago about the various chains and pulley types that are available. Several builders felt the 5mm-HTD belts were the optimum for E-bike builds, and when a tiny cog on the chain half of things is desirable (11-tooth), the #219 chain/sprockets (from Karting sites) was suggested as probably the best for us.

Matt (Recumpence) and several others began building set-ups with these items, and there have been many examples of great success. Best of luck with whatever you choose...

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8491&start=15#p301680

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7192

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Thanks Spinning Magnets

I never would have thought that the sprocket size would have that much effect on noise.


FIring up the cad software and making a 5mil belt...

Thanks for the help so far guys!

 

[Byte]

Your post is very useful spinningmagnets. Thank you! I need the exact same bearing as you mentioned in your post, and it's only $7

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Whats that bearing for?

And I cant find any decently sized htd 5mm pulleys, I need low tooth count for the motor


whats the reduction ratio of the Recumbent drive system?

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Would it be a bad idea to get a sensorless controller?

Im used to sensorless rc controllers and know that startup will be rougher, and I would have to pedal assist the start, but it would make the build a little less complex (for my first build) and cut cost.

Plus with the amount of gear reduction the motor should start well.

 

[Brushlessboy16]

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Just ordered
-600w 48v Sensored ccontroller
-14t Free wheel
-Twist grip throttle
- 6 feet of 12ga wire
- 1/8x1/2 chain master link

Still need to get:
5/8in stock for jackshaft
80-85 motor
2x 5800mah 6s lipo
freewheel adapter
pulleys
4in aluminum angle.


Still need to order my throttle.

What hall effect sensors should I use for y 80-85 motor?

 

[etard]

Hey brushless,
I think most people are using the ss411a hall sensors with reasonable success.

Looking forward to your build, how will you be mounting the drive on that bike?

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Whole assembly will be on the front of the downtube. And im going to use 2in id U bolts in conjunction with slots in my motor plate that are a tight fit to the water bottle holder screws to keep the assembly from twisting around.

harder to explain than it actually is

 

[Brushlessboy16]

Bump, What software/ hardware do I need to reprogram my speed controller?

Pics of my belt drive setup

18/72 gearing with a 5x15mm htd belt