Myth Busting

[DingusMcGee]

ES Myth: to make a turn you must first turn in the other direction.

Evidence counter to this Myth:

Experience: the preponderance of my edirtbike riding terrain is sidehill riding on sometimes steep narrow trails. These trails are not like the well groomed paths you will find on typical Mt Bike Trails, but often have scree, gravel, and headwalls while going uphill and winding. Trail terrain is such that in order to miss a headwall you may while ride on the very edge of the downhill side of the trail with a turn immediately ahead. A rider that does not know the simple response will likely freeze up as he thinks that to initiate the proper response he needs to first steer off the trail which would lead to severe (dangerous) downhill terrain.

No Fear, there are many techniques around this navigation problem. They involve employing Body English - directional weighting and unweighting— kind of like the squirming you might do while mogul skiing? A subtle fast maneuver when next to the trail edge for saving yourself would be the knee flick. The knee flick is a quick outward rotation of the knee (on the uphill side) with that foot on the pedal while your ass is on the seat. If you are standing on the pedals, your Body English will be far less constrained that sitting on the seat and the immediately needed inward turn will be of no problem.

 

[E-HP]

Shifting your weight is 90% of maneuvering anything on two wheels. I think there’s a speed element that makes bicycle riders feel they need to steer a bike. On two wheels, you only steer when going slowly. At speed, turning is handled through leaning. And leaning can be initially induced by subtle pressure on one grip or the other. Since bicycles are slow, people tend to steer them, while a GP bike in a sharp turn going 100 has its front wheel virtually straight, shifting weight and leaning are doing the “steering”.

 

[marvin78]

I counter steer to initiate weight shifting, so yeah I think you need to counter steer to 'turn' even if it has no direct relation to what is causing the bike to turn. It's also depending on in which body position I'm sitting, or in which phase of a pedal stroke. If I'm in time trail mode perfectly centered and as still as possible, you don't need to counter stear ( as much? ). But if you're actively riding your body position is often not centered so the counter steering's purpose is to shift your weight to the other side, then you can lean and make the actual turn.

 

[E-HP]

Over time, your body just learns what to do, and your mind is just telling it where you want to go (just like riding a bike lol). That makes it hard to teach. To someone experienced, they know just what you're talking about; but for a total newbie, there aren't enough words.

 

[molybdenum]

Since you have to shift your weight to initiate a turn, if you are not prepared for the turn or are caught by surprise, you can get caught flat-footed. Counter-steering has the immediate effect of placing your weight under your turn so I can see this helping in panic situations to initiate a turn more quickly. It takes a bit of time and forewarning to adjust your weight positioning for a turn without counter-steering. Avoiding counter-steering is better as it keeps you from deviating from your intended track, keeps you better balanced and safer from adjacent vehicle traffic. Mostly, I shift my weight ahead of the turn and do not counter-steer.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

If you haven't already seen it, watch this, and then come back and tell us that you know how you do everything, in this context, with regard to how you ride a bicycle:

Respectfully, I'll want an instrumented bicycle and rider to settle the question.

 

[marvin78]

ps.. who else got to 13 watching that other video..

 

[DingusMcGee]

offGridDownUnder

endless-sphere.com

I see your posted video and your assessment that gleaning something from watching it will somehow measure your bicycle riding awareness?

Sorry, but this correlation seems like total nonsense. Here is why — watching the video may have some relevancy to someone leaning to moon walk, but what I see or do not see on the video has no consequences or predictability to my focusing kinesic skills while sidehill trail riding while next to the downhill edge of a trail. There are some riders on this site that could put to use what I say in the opening post while on their first steep sidehill trail ride next to the edge successfully. Others do not learn by this form of verbal instruction.


You say, “Respectfully, I'll want an instrumented bicycle and rider to settle the question.” Where is your imagination to contrive such a test that would prove my point but does not exactly need instruments? I have given you a constraint situation that simply needs action and observations to illustrate the point I suggest.

But you could do a simple metropolitan test alongside any square curb (8” high?) that abuts a roadway. Ride up along side the curb and then ride parallel to it for say five feet. Next, maneuver the bike to ride away from the curb. If you have to turn into the curb first before turning away, you will likely wreck. An experienced bike rider can get the bike away from the curb without turning into it. Are you experienced?

For instrumentation would a video camera qualify? You seem to like videos.

Or how about a swinging pendulum mounted on your top tube such that its initial plane of motion parallels your parallel travel along side the curb?

 

[docw009]

All I know that if I get my bike caught near the edge of the pavement, with a dropoff into the grass.. it's almost impossible to get off that line without falling into the groove,. I guess the bike can't steer back onto the pavement without the necessary countersteer that throws me off.

 

[DanGT86]

Anybody ever tried the experiment where you place a finger in front of one grip and behind the other to test for counter steering?

Put your right thumb behind the right grip and your left finger in front of the left grip. This will only allow you to turn the bars to the left. Then try to initiate a left turn.

In my experience it does not work since to turn left requires applying right hand turn to the bars for a brief and imperceptible amount of time such that the left lean is initiated.

I can see how its a Myth that you have to make a significant opposite turn to turn a bike but it does seem as though you have to at least apply some counter steering pressure to initiate the lean.

If I remember correctly that is also the conclusion of the veritasium vid posted above.

 

[DingusMcGee]

docw009

endless-sphere.com

DanGT86

endless-sphere.com

The problem that you two have in the performing of a turn without counter steering is previous learning and then developing a fixed and constrained way of holding yourself while riding and turning. Well, there is a rather gross(?) action, easy to try, that will get your bike turned without counter steering. You may think you are now too sophicated and refined to be seen/caught doing this action while bike riding.

Find a big empty parking lot free of snow. Begin riding straight ahead, slowly will work. Then to initiate a left turn, two things 1) you cannot hold the steering horns straight and stiff but let them kind of go as they will, 2) quickly throw your left leg out such that it is perpendicular to the bike frame and at say 45 degrees angle to the pavement. You will go left quickly with no counter steering action necessary.

This leg outward action is about the easiest to learn form of Body English for bike steering you can do. You likely knew it by the time you successfully could ride a bicycle. Likely now you ride constrained too much to employ much Body English to the bike. Your ass is is fixed on seat, your knees are held close to the top tube and your arms move in a small cylindrical space about the steeering bars. It all reminds me of the Johnny Cash song, I WALK THE LINE. You ride the line — you know you must be aerodynamic to save energy.

This next maneuver will take a friend to throw you a 10 lb(?) pack at you to catch on your left side while riding past him. Left arm must go outward by the time of catch. This riding task will like demonstrate what happens when forces are laterally added while riding a bike. Again you will make a left turn without counter steering.

 

[JackFlorey]

ES Myth: to make a turn you must first turn in the other direction.

If you do absolutely nothing else - true.

But that's not what I do - I lean in one direction to start the turn. I think most people do the same.

 

[DanGT86]

So then it would seem that the way to turn a bicycle is to initiate a lean.

A lean can be initiated with tiny counter steer or awkwardly shifting weigh in an extreme way.

Why not just counter steer and keep the excess body motion to a minimum?

Is your main point here that counter steering is not the ONLY way to turn?

Now I want to rig up an adjustable steering limiter to stop all counter steer and try it myself. I still have a gut feeling that one cannot turn without a counter steer even with the leg out/pack catching method to induce the lean. I feel like I have tried this before messing around and the lean without counter steer is basically just hopping off the bike.

I ride trials and when my front tire is jammed up against an object preventing my counter steer I feel like I hop away first and cant simply turn the bars the way I want to lean. I'll have to go try.

 

[DingusMcGee]

DanGT86

endless-sphere.com

DanGT86,

My point here is to refute the several times on this web site I have seen posted that you need to counter steer initally to begin a turn.

Are the skills herein that I mention some bike handling skills that a lot “experts” — trial riders — don’t know about? But could learn if they did some sidehill riding?

You ask,”Why not just counter steer and keep the excess body motion to a minimum? “. Sure, fine if that will get you what want.

I ride difficult steep side hill trails and occasionally get the front tire right on the downhill edge of the trail. When this happens, any bit of countersteering would send me crashing downhill fast — out of control. To do what I do in this situation (i am on the edge of the trail) is a simple outward knee swing of the knee on the uphill side. No excess body motion needed here — that is if you learn the skill.

Or I could do a snap steer to get immediately towards the uphill side. You will need more skill than what it takes to throw a Knee outward for this response.

Are you folks all talk and no play? — just cererebral with Medieval views? Get out on you bike and build up these skills —

 

[DingusMcGee]

DanGT86

endless-sphere.com

Hi DanGT86,

Please spare me the time to be cerebral here, as I am not likely to get a trials bike and learn that skill to some level of expertise — i am sort of saturated, yet I do know what I like.

You and I essentially have learned two different riding skills for handling a bike, in which the styles do not permit much crossover of techniques.

Trials — a no, no to have your feet off the pegs? And worse on the ground? Correct me here on what is permitted. I know there are constraints in trials as to how one can control the bike but not the fine details of that.

What I ride — it is not motocross as I do not seek BIG AIR. Perhaps it is more like Enduro? We on the Sidehills merely try to keep the bike moving except by getting off and pushing it. Any form of body English for control is acceptable and that includes pushing the ground with your feet and trees with your hands. If I were in a race, I would be a little heavier on the throttle than normal.

When doing sidehill riding, it seems like a fight. Speaking of fighting — here is a comparison. The boxer says,”get your dukes up”, and then holds his arms in the starting position. I step up and say,”I fight to win”. The present situation then is not about announcing the skills I have, so I do not say,” I have training in wrestling, judo and dung Fu. My intent is that people will not get hurt so little Kung Fu.

My intent here was to inform folks about some bike maneuvers that might keep them from crashing and getting hurt.

What do I get? A bunch of cerebral boneheads that have a “they know it all “ attitude and will not go out test and learn new real world skills on a bike? Maybe a Mind-Body skill?

Maybe, they are just in a state of denial in which, if they don’t know of it, it cannot exist?

 

[DanGT86]

You are correct that in trials riding the goal is to not touch the ground with your foot. The reason I brought it up was to emphasize that my own opinion/theory on how this steering thing works is not based on my only riding in a stiff fixed position. Its quite the opposite as trials involves throwing your body weight all over on the bike. Sometimes while riding a skinny object your foot has to come off the pedal and sidekick out for balance. Danny Mac below is perfectly illustrating this point riding across this tennis net.


In the interest of not being a "bonehead" I went outside yesterday to try some experiments regarding all of this. What I found was that the quickest way to turn is to apply counter steer pressure to the bars. Its not an actual turn that moves the front wheel off the centerline. So riding a hillside like you mention with the wheels right at the downhill edge you can still apply counter steer pressure to the bars which will lean the bike instantly the uphill way allowing you to turn away from the edge.

Here is what I think is happening. I want to turn left. I apply pressure to the bars in the right hand turning direction. One of the following 2 things happens.

1. I resist LH lean with my body and the bike tries to actually turn right. This seems to be what you don't want and why you wanted to bust this "myth". In this instance the front wheel rolls some distance to the right off centerline taking the bike with it.
2. I don't resist the LH lean so INSTEAD of the bike turning right with the bars the wheel instead goes straight and the frame must lean left since my rightward bar pressure had to go somewhere. This is the counter steer people insist is real and required for effective turning.

My personal conclusion is that its not counter turn but counter steer. You dont have to turn right to go left. You do have to very gently steer right to turn left. Turning being an actual directional change of the bike. Steering is just the bar input force.

Also in my experimentation going straight and sticking a leg or bodyweight way out to one side without my hands on the bars causes the bars to contersteer the opposite way on their own. I am of the opinion that leaning requires creating an instability that favors a side and the quickest lowest energy way to get that done is to apply counter steer pressure to the bike.

I believe in your example the downhill is providing a constant counter steer force on the front wheel. So in the case of say the downhill being on your right, you are only ever applying left hand force to the bars to maintain equilibrium. In that case counter steering is a matter of reducing the lefthand/uphill force. From an equilibrium state its still a counter steer but the input from the rider only includes LH turning force.

Anyway, it sounds like you are a bit frustrated with some of the pushback from me and others and its bordering on insult/argument territory. I get it. Internet conversations easily devolve to that. I'd like you to know that I really appreciate thinking through this stuff with you and the ES community. I'm glad you posted this questioning of convention and it was an excuse for me to go outside in the cold and investigate physics I take for granted. That's what we are here for. Hopefully you don't feel like there are any hard feelings hidden behind my opinions conflicting with yours.

 

[bananu7]

> to make a turn you must first turn in the other direction.

Not really, I don't think a lot of people are saying exactly that. The way you formed the original assumption makes it hard to disagree, actually. Let me try to rephrase.

To make a turn, you must lean the bike. Turning the other direction is often the most effective way of leaning.

How does that sound? If you're on a side of a hill, I'm totally with you that you might want to focus on your balance more than anything else. But if you're riding normally, trying to turn by leaning is just wasting energy. And if you do that on a motorcycle, you'll hardly turn at all, which is why countersteering is one of the most essential habits to form for new riders.

P.S. the vehicle speed is another component here; if you're moving slowly, the lean introduced by countersteering might seem comparatively smaller compared to shifting of body weight. But start to move faster, and it becomes much more obvious, further exacerbated by the higher stabilizing gyroscopic forces of the wheels (and crankshaft). The key part why it's so much more efficient is that you're introducing a dynamic instability and using the system's mass and inertia to introduce a lean, producing torque forces (after all, lean is a rotation) vastly greater than anything you can produce just by your own mass, the lever formed by your shift to the side and gravity.

P.S. 2. I've just realized that you might actually be talking about enduro motorbikes, and not bicycles? Oh well. In that case, you might enjoy Chris Birch's enduro training series. He actually mentions that in the context of slippery surface turns, countersteering on an enduro bike is very likely to result in a lowside as there's not enough tyre grip to make use of the effect I mentioned in P.S. 1. He actually recommends a rapid weight transfer to the inside peg to initiate the lean instead, followed by immediate transfer back to the proper position on the outside peg once the bike leans over. Again, just to reiterate, I am not actually disagreeing with you overall

 

[JackFlorey]

trying to turn by leaning is just wasting energy.

Disagree there. When you are pedaling you are leaning all the time, and adjusting steering to counter that. Leaning slightly more or less isn't wasted energy. (We're talking inches here.)

As you mentioned, motorcycles are heavier so you'd have to lean a lot more. (And of course there's no pedaling.)

 

[bananu7]

Disagree there. When you are pedaling you are leaning all the time, and adjusting steering to counter that. Leaning slightly more or less isn't wasted energy. (We're talking inches here.)

As you mentioned, motorcycles are heavier so you'd have to lean a lot more. (And of course there's no pedaling.)

If we're talking about smooth, long turns over a relatively straight road, maybe. If it's an actual, reasonably sharp turn, even on an bicycle you need to lean quite a lot. The force you need to exert on the bars to introduce lean is minimal compared to the force you need to apply to shift your body weight for a proper turn. Virtually everyone riding a bicycle does both, anyway, in sync, without ever thinking about it.

On a road motorcycle, no matter how much you lean, you won't be able to turn almost at all - compared to tiny input on the handlebars which will make the machine change directions with utmost ease and zero effort.

 

[JackFlorey]

If we're talking about smooth, long turns over a relatively straight road, maybe. If it's an actual, reasonably sharp turn, even on an bicycle you need to lean quite a lot.

Again, I disagree. If you want to make the sort of normal turns you make in real world riding (road riding, singletrack etc) then you can initiate them all by leaning, and it's not an aggressive manuever at all.

If you lean even a tiny bit and do not counter by steering, the lean will get more and more pronounced until you fall. (Which is why you can't ride on one rail of a railroad even if you remove tires and use a wide rim.) So all you have to do is begin the turn by leaning and it will rapidly progress to as steep a turn as you want. You are trying to unbalance 150-200 pounts basically standing on a tiny pole, and the hard part isn't unbalancing it and falling over, the hard part is NOT falling (and is why you need to learn to ride a bike.)

I think you are starting from a motorcycle centric perspective which is fine, but a lot of things just don't port over well.

Virtually everyone riding a bicycle does both, anyway, in sync, without ever thinking about it.

I've tested this by recording my own handlebars with a Gopro. For most turns I make there is no initial counterturn.

 

[bananu7]

I've tested this by recording my own handlebars with a Gopro. For most turns I make there is no initial counterturn.

I think a better test would be to either (if you can) ride without your hands on the bars or have some sort of static attachment to hold on to that's not the bars, i.e. is not connected to the front wheel. I'm mentioning that because like Dan has observed above, the movement can be quite small; I might even risk wondering if even just the force exerted without perceptible rotation might be enough.

While in that setup, observe your ability to turn quickly and the effort required.

It's absolutely possible to turn without your hands on the bars at all, and people ride like that all the time, doing minute course corrections. You can even do bigger turns when you prepare and start leaning well ahead. But it's not how most turns are made and it's not fully utilizing the bike's ability to turn. You simply need both if you want maximum efficiency and turn ability.

P.S.

I think you are starting from a motorcycle centric perspective which is fine, but a lot of things just don't port over well.

I ride both.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Hi DanGT86,

Happy to see you got out testing today and just as glad to hear you found some concurring result.

Some similar topic posts about the unavoidable( they concluded) effects of steering occurred in the past and they showed the tire track ( resulting from a counter steer?) as initially going to the opposite direction you wanted to turn. From my experience, testing and knowledge of making turns that is only one of many ways to make/initiate a turn. Their generalized wording was, “in order to make a turn you must first steer in the opposite direction. That idea is wrong.

Today I was out on the edirtbike which has pedals but they totally freewheel. So your legs can spin the cranks in either rotational direction. Initially this testing was to play with the turning methods you described. My contention makes no preference to how the forces are applied to the bike or the weight shifts you put put on the bike. It turns out there are many ways to turn the bike in which the steer tube with respect to the fork tube that passes thru it sees no initial counter turn/rotation.

There far too many ways to turn to enumerate and some which are quite subtle motions and weight shifts — body English —sort of similar to turns while downhill skiing—a lot of it is about weighting and unweighting the front or back of the ski, leaning forward to bend the front of the ski and lastly some pole action.

 

[bananu7]

It turns out there are many ways to turn the bike in which the steer tube with respect to the fork tube that passes thru it sees no initial counter turn/rotation.

One of them being pushed by some external force, like someone standing to the side

But yeah, the one thing all turns share is lean, not the counter-movement of the front tyre induced by countersteer.

 

[DingusMcGee]

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/members/bananu7.106180/

Your PS 2 paragraph refers to what I call a snap steer.

I have found on steep terrain that during recovery from failures while jumping off the edirtbike it sometimes rolls backwards going downhill and the resulting spinning pedals hit me in the shins. I do not like bruised shins. With an 8000 watt motor the 400 watts missing from me pedaling is pretty much insignificant. So my edirtbikes are more like gas motorized motorcycles.

The real issue is that the front tire even at 4 psi bounces severely on difficult steep terrain. You cannot steer very well with the front tire in the air, but moving far forward over the handle bar will get the tire back on the trail sooner. In this far forward position pedaling is not very effective.

 

[bananu7]

Yeah, that's actually why I personally dislike putting cranks on such powerful ebikes. Static motorcycle pegs can actually be used for proper weighting in such scenarios, and offer much better traction in offroad, because you can apply more consistent pressure to the rear tyre.