Myths about tires (part 1)

[ebike4healthandfitness]

For me, moto rims and tires win hands down simply because they work. Shinko 241’s are just amazing on my 125 lbs “17 KW 65+ mph bicycle!” I’m a pretty smart person and know that the rotational inertia is higher which does slow my acceleration/braking but, and I mean a huge “I like big butts” but, ( I actually do not like actual big butts by the way!!!!) the traction, sure footed feeling, longevity, flat resistance and over all feeling out weighs (pun intended! ) the parasitic losses in my opinion. Even when I was running 14kw on a maxed out MaxE running a 3.0 26” Minion down hill (was supposed to be the best at the time but tried a few others with same results!) bicycle tire I could never keep the front end planted in a hard turn with power. On street the knobs were too little, too soft and on trail not enough grip. I had too much power and made the front end too light. Grab too much front brake and the front end would wash………But, even with my 19 x 1.6 rim with a Shinko 241 2.75 the front end comes up with a flick of the right hand but has grip for days on street or trail. Believe it or not but I’m faster through the corners and trails with the heavier tire. Your results may be different but mine are as stated! How many times have I had a flat tire on bicycle tires…..more than I care to admit. Had more than my fair share of walk of shames! Granted now there are thicker tubes, slimey shit to fill them up with, extra tube protectors, blah, blah blah that I have not tried but I feel no need to. I don’t need them with my Shinko tires….nor do I need or carry a patch kit…..never did on my motorcycle either.

While many may be faster my bike will do 0 to 60 mph in 10 seconds. With a 220 mm front disk/MT5e I can do a stoppie (I’m not good at it and it scares the shit out of me when the rear end comes up…..just compressing the 7+ inch front fork will get you clinched up tight enough to turn a piece of coal into a diamond of really good quality! ) and can lock up the rear brake at any speed with a 203 mm/Hayes Stroker Ace with 2 fingers. While I’m sure a lighter set up could do it faster or better, I don’t feel I’m giving up much.

So I’m 6’-4” and 220 fit lbs. I have a dirt bike background my whole life. Even having the best motor bikes available there were always compromises that had to be made and on my ebike this is the one I have made. Since I have a QS 205 V3 hub motor ebike with the motorcycle tires I am able to run at lower PSI which helps mask the weight of it. Compared to bicycle tires I have had to run at higher pressures to keep from pinch flatting is night and day. The chatter from small trail imperfections even with 10” of wheel travel is enough to sterilize the most vibrant man out there. The motorcycle tire is like gliding on a cloud. So is this for everyone? Maybe not but for me there is no other way. If I was just doing this or that, looking for the utmost performance or racing the bike my compromises may be different. For my all purpose, jack of all trades, do it all crazy powerful always ready to go, non tire repair kit carrying black beauty motorcycle rims and tires are the way to a better ride. <mic drop>

Tom

Great post.

I've seen those comments from other people elsewhere. Interestingly, some people found out about the increased grip on accident because their original reason for switching away from bicycle tires was to save money (re: moped tires last a lot longer than bicycle tires).

 

[Chalo]

I've seen those comments from other people elsewhere. Interestingly, some people found out about the increased grip on accident because their original reason for switching away from bicycle tires was to save money (re: moped tires last a lot longer than bicycle tires).

Have I got the tire for you! Ticks all your boxes.
https://www.titan-intl.com/Tires/TRACTION-IMPLEMENT

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

How many times have I had a flat tire on bicycle tires…..more than I care to admit. Had more than my fair share of walk of shames! Granted now there are thicker tubes, slimey shit to fill them up with, extra tube protectors, blah, blah blah that I have not tried but I feel no need to. I don’t need them with my Shinko tires….nor do I need or carry a patch kit…..never did on my motorcycle either.

And yet the people going on about rotational inertia and the importance of bicycle tires to reduce this will be the first ones to tell you about tire liners, slime and thicker inner tubes. All of which hurt performance while at the same only worsening the already bad total cost of ownership of bicycle tires.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I have two motorcycle rims I bought used, cut the spokes and threw out the hub, the rim itself is not heavy. I could weigh it, ones 19" anothers 21" had plans to install but I am not having any problems with a front hub setup and no plans to go back to a rear hub anytime soon.

Be easy enough to find the weight online wouldnt it?
Lemme tingle my Goo Google Juice
https://www.denniskirk.com/moose/red-front-spoked-1-60-x-21-rim-0210-0361.p5504469.prd/5504469.sku
Weight 2.00 lbs

https://www.denniskirk.com/irc/front-rear-nr73-90-90p-14-blackwall-tire-t10272.p543894.prd/543894.sku
21" 90/90 tire is 6lbs

Homeboy is constantly recommending a 3.50-17 tire to substitute for a 24" freestyle tire. That implies a ~10 pound tire on a 5-10 pound rim. If you dispute that, find me a contrary example. A 1.60-21 rim ain't it.

It would be a great idea and you know it.

A 17" rim able to fit a 3.50" (or 90 section) wide tire only needs to be 1.85" wide, but the ideal width is 2.15".

So the rim doesn't end up very heavy if made of aluminum.

P.S. I have found 3.5" or the slightly larger 90 section tires lighter than 10 pounds. Still not sure why you are so obsessed with rotational inertia for Pedi-cabs. Just looking at one even a casual person knows that aerodynamics and weight over the axle would be the dominating forces.

 

[Chalo]

If you don't understand, build yourself a pedal bike with your beloved moto tires and pedal it around. You'll figure it out.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

If you don't understand, build yourself a pedal bike with your beloved moto tires and pedal it around. You'll figure it out.

And yet 1000's of cycles maximus pedi-cabbers disagree with you (even if the stock 2.25" wide 17" moped tire isn't the best) because I can never find a single reference to this 24" BMX tire pedi-cab thing no matter how hard I try to find it.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

When do we get to part 2?

Part 2 was going to be about rotational inertia, but we are already talking about it in this thread.

P.S. I remember a time when folks would build wheels with alloy nipples rather than brass nipples for the sole reason of saving weight. They almost always also cite reduction in rotational inertia, but now these people are wise to the fact that is often better to worsen rotational inertia if it allows one to make improvements in other more significant or important areas like rolling resistance or aerodynamics.

 

[Chalo]

So I had an interesting episode with my own bike tires this afternoon. One of my Kenda Kwick Drumlin tires (26" rear of my cargo bike in this case) had developed a lump that I could feel while riding. This afternoon I got an opportunity to replace it.

To add some background: I put a 20 x 2" Kenda Kwick Drumlin Cargo and a 26 x 2 Kenda Kwick Drumlin KS+ on my cargo bike because the 29" version had worked out so well for me on my other e-bike. I wasn't happy with the squirmy, uncertain cornering feel I got from the rear tire, but it wasn't bad enough to make me replace it right away. Not long ago, one of the tires on my 29er got a lump in it and I replaced it with one of the same.

So I'm thinking, hmm, out of four of these Kwick Drumlin tires I started with, two in different sizes have failed in a way that has very rarely happened to my tires. Can't recommend these anymore.

Here's what I found when I dismounted the lumpy tire for a postmortem:


What I was more surprised to find was that this failed tire is moped rated, and has a motorcycle size designation along with the customary and ISO bicycle size designations.




I weighed the tire (it measured 1200g), then cut into it to see what the breaker belt and thread thickness were like. It made sense to me that a tire with a 5mm thick breaker layer felt squiggly in corners. It was rated 35-60 psi, and I inflated it to 60 when topping up.



I replaced this failed tire with a same size, similarly tough-feeling Kenda tire that came off of one of the Jump bike motor wheels. That one weighs 920g, is pressure rated 50-80 psi, and does not have moped classification or moto tire size markings on it. On the ride back home from the shop, the bike's handling had improved substantially, with none of the squirminess the Kwick Drumlin KS+ tire displayed from day one.

It's not clear to me what makes this version of the Kenda Kwick Drumlin a moped tire, but whatever it is didn't help. It died young and badly after not much mileage, with tread features still pretty sharp and unworn.

 

[Chalo]

If you don't understand, build yourself a pedal bike with your beloved moto tires and pedal it around. You'll figure it out.

And yet 1000's of cycles maximus pedi-cabbers disagree with you (even if the stock 2.25" wide 17" moped tire isn't the best) because I can never find a single reference to this 24" BMX tire pedi-cab thing no matter how hard I try to find it.

The local owners aren't talking in the interwebz about it-- they're just doing it to their trikes because both freestyle rims and tires work better than the stock Cycles Maximus parts and are easier to maintain. The much more numerous Chinese clones mostly have 24" rear wheels from the factory.

 

[Chalo]

I remember a time when folks would build wheels with alloy nipples rather than brass nipples for the sole reason of saving weight. They almost always also cite reduction in rotational inertia, but now these people are wise to the fact that is often better to worsen rotational inertia if it allows one to make improvements in other more significant or important areas like rolling resistance or aerodynamics.

In my professional experience, most folks who specify alloy nipples do so because they're available in bright anodized colors. I always recommend against it, whatever the reason, because it makes the wheels harder to service and shortens their useful life.

Note that the difference between even 48 brass nipples and alloy nipples is at most a couple of ounces. Your recommendation of moto tires and rims, however, would probably triple the weight of a bicycle wheel in the best case. And it will always add rolling resistance, no exceptions.

Stop recommending things you don't understand. Just try some moto rims and tires on your own bike and see for yourself.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I remember a time when folks would build wheels with alloy nipples rather than brass nipples for the sole reason of saving weight. They almost always also cite reduction in rotational inertia, but now these people are wise to the fact that is often better to worsen rotational inertia if it allows one to make improvements in other more significant or important areas like rolling resistance or aerodynamics.

Your recommendation of moto tires and rims, however, would probably triple the weight of a bicycle wheel in the best case.

Even if tripled weight who cares?

Focusing on rotational inertia on bicycles for the purposes of braking or acceleration was always just a fad. People at one time thought it was important as demonstrated by the ridiculous practice of substituting alloy nipples for brass nipples. After they woke up things went the opposite direction with the trend of wider and thus heavier rims for the purposes of making 23mm road tires more aero.

Yeah I remember people doing all.kinds of math on rotational inertia in forums and coming to conclusions that even the most extreme shifts in rotational inertia didn't do squat. Thankfully people in normal bike forums just laugh at the topic of rotational inertia now....but some of you guys here are still living deep in the past. The Dark Ages of bicycling. A bit ironic but I guess it proves knowing about electrical hardware doesn't mean a person knows anything about bicycling hardware.

 

[Chalo]

Your recommendation of moto tires and rims, however, would probably triple the weight of a bicycle wheel in the best case.

Even if tripled weight who cares?

Literally everybody who's tried it on their own bicycle, that's who. You haven't tried it, so you don't know.

I've made bikes and trikes with wheelbarrow wheels, ATV wheels, and motorcycle stuff. It works fine for art or foolishness, but not for transportation.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Your recommendation of moto tires and rims, however, would probably triple the weight of a bicycle wheel in the best case.

Even if tripled weight who cares?

Literally everybody who's tried it on their own bicycle, that's who. You haven't tried it, so you don't know.

I've made bikes and trikes with wheelbarrow wheels, ATV wheels, and motorcycle stuff. It works fine for art or foolishness, but not for transportation.

1. (In response to your first paragraph) Nope. You can't fool me Chalo.

2. (In response to your second paragraph) That is just pure junk you are using though.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

So I had an interesting episode with my own bike tires this afternoon. One of my Kenda Kwick Drumlin tires (26" rear of my cargo bike in this case) had developed a lump that I could feel while riding. This afternoon I got an opportunity to replace it.

To add some background: I put a 20 x 2" Kenda Kwick Drumlin Cargo and a 26 x 2 Kenda Kwick Drumlin KS+ on my cargo bike because the 29" version had worked out so well for me on my other e-bike. I wasn't happy with the squirmy, uncertain cornering feel I got from the rear tire, but it wasn't bad enough to make me replace it right away. Not long ago, one of the tires on my 29er got a lump in it and I replaced it with one of the same.

So I'm thinking, hmm, out of four of these Kwick Drumlin tires I started with, two in different sizes have failed in a way that has very rarely happened to my tires. Can't recommend these anymore.

Here's what I found when I dismounted the lumpy tire for a postmortem:
IMG_20211121_174404895.jpg

What I was more surprised to find was that this failed tire is moped rated, and has a motorcycle size designation along with the customary and ISO bicycle size designations.
IMG_20211121_174300925~2.jpg

IMG_20211121_174550042~2.jpg

I weighed the tire (it measured 1200g), then cut into it to see what the breaker belt and thread thickness were like. It made sense to me that a tire with a 5mm thick breaker layer felt squiggly in corners. It was rated 35-60 psi, and I inflated it to 60 when topping up.

IMG_20211121_180957938~2.jpg

I replaced this failed tire with a same size, similarly tough-feeling Kenda tire that came off of one of the Jump bike motor wheels. That one weighs 920g, is pressure rated 50-80 psi, and does not have moped classification or moto tire size markings on it. On the ride back home from the shop, the bike's handling had improved substantially, with none of the squirminess the Kwick Drumlin KS+ tire displayed from day one.

It's not clear to me what makes this version of the Kenda Kwick Drumlin a moped tire, but whatever it is didn't help. It died young and badly after not much mileage, with tread features still pretty sharp and unworn.

I believe you were the victim of Counterfeit tires. It's a real problem that people need to be aware of. For this reason I always choose OEM to make sure I am getting the best quality possible (fresh stock, genuine product, etc.) Tires are too important to risk.

 

[Chalo]

I believe you were the victim of Counterfeit tires. It's a real problem that people need to be aware of. For this reason I always choose OEM to make sure I am getting the best quality possible (fresh stock, genuine product, etc.) Tires are too important to risk.

One of the tires that failed was ordered from Quality Bicycle Products, which is a first line distributor. The other was mail ordered directly from Kenda's website, so I don't think counterfeiting is to blame. Quality is obviously an issue, but I'm pretty sure it's on Kenda's end.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I believe you were the victim of Counterfeit tires. It's a real problem that people need to be aware of. For this reason I always choose OEM to make sure I am getting the best quality possible (fresh stock, genuine product, etc.) Tires are too important to risk.

One of the tires that failed was ordered from Quality Bicycle Products, which is a first line distributor. The other was mail ordered directly from Kenda's website, so I don't think counterfeiting is to blame. Quality is obviously an issue, but I'm pretty sure it's on Kenda's end.

Kenda is not a tier 1 manufacturer and any moped tire still using a inner tube is an old design ( or based on an old design).

Why bother with old stuff from manufacturers that are tier 2 at best??

Next stop for you should be a tubeless scooter tire from a tier 1 manufacturer (best of which is Michelin). Maybe even go section 100 tubeless Michelin on a 16" tubeless moto rim to replace those downright nasty 24" BMX tires pedi-cab drivers have suffering from. 4" wide (i.e. 100 section) on a 16" tubeless motor rim should come out to be the same 24" outside diameter and probably much easier to find than 3.5" tubeless for 17" rim.

I would begin my search by first looking at Michelin A39 and Michelin City Grip 2, both of which are tubeless.

 

[Chalo]

You're still talking about things you have no direct experience with and don't understand. Go get some hands-on experience and stop telling those who know better, how you think it is.

Kenda bicycle tires range from real crap to very good. Michelin bicycle tires are quite the same in that regard. Scooter tires don't work worth a damn on bicycles or they'd be common on bicycles.

Tubeless is a fad that will either develop to the point it doesn't require sealant, or it will go away and won't be missed. How many motor vehicles use tires that depend on liquid sealant to work adequately?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

You're still talking about things you have no direct experience with and don't understand. Go get some hands-on experience and stop telling those who know better, how you think it is.

Kenda bicycle tires range from real crap to very good. Michelin bicycle tires are quite the same in that regard. Scooter tires don't work worth a damn on bicycles or they'd be common on bicycles.

Tubeless is a fad that will either develop to the point it doesn't require sealant, or it will go away and won't be missed. How many motor vehicles use tires that depend on liquid sealant to work adequately?

LoL...(with face palm)...What planet have you been living on? What rock have you been living under? Tubeless Scooter or Motorcycle tires do not need sealant. In fact, some manufacturers will even void the warranty if you use sealant on a tubeless Scooter or Motorcycle tire.

This ain't toy junk like your tubeless bicycle tires. (Only tubeless bicycle tire that I know about that doesn't need sealant is Mavic UST, but it is still is bicycle tire and carries all the other disadvantages that all bicycle tires share in common.)

 

[Chalo]

Tubeless is a fad that will either develop to the point it doesn't require sealant, or it will go away and won't be missed. How many motor vehicles use tires that depend on liquid sealant to work adequately?

LoL...(with face palm)...What planet have you been living on? What rock have you been living under? Tubeless Scooter or Motorcycle tires do not need sealant.

They're also no good for bikes, or they'd already be on bikes. Dragster tires and earth mover tires also don't use sealant and also don't belong on bikes.

Before you make uninformed prescriptions to others, try out what you're prescribing on your own bike. Then you'll get it. Be sure to pedal it around under your own power, so you don't simply add more juice to offset how badly you crippled your ride.

The only people using motorcycle tires here are riding motorcycles. (Even if they started with a bicycle frame.)

 

[E-HP]

Before you make uninformed prescriptions to others, try out what you're prescribing on your own bike. Then you'll get it.

I don't think you have to worry about people following any prescriptions. But, you should be lauded for taking the time and patiently providing some much needed social interaction. :thumb: Not everyone here is interested in ebikes or building them.

 

[MadRhino]

Some just need to try it themselves. I mean, logic is not enough to explain reality. When they start saying stupid statements like ‘even if it does triple the weight, who cares?’, it is time to realize how useless it is to try to explain.

Even after building it and having the proof in their own hands, they will continue to confort their illusions. I have one here, a guy who had worked for me more than ten years. I gave up trying to explain, because his faith in perpetual motion is stronger than logic and education. For a long time, I debunked each of his attempts but he keeps trying to prove his truth. What can you do? When he enters this topic now, I just say ‘do it, you will change the face of the world’. I decided to treat this like religions: discussions are useless because faith is above logic, laws of their god are above those of physics.

This was about myths? Well, myths are tough because human brain has its own force of inertia.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Tubeless is a fad that will either develop to the point it doesn't require sealant, or it will go away and won't be missed. How many motor vehicles use tires that depend on liquid sealant to work adequately?

LoL...(with face palm)...What planet have you been living on? What rock have you been living under? Tubeless Scooter or Motorcycle tires do not need sealant.

They're also no good for bikes, or they'd already be on bikes.

First of all I have never wrote that moped or scooter tires should be on bicycles. Mopeds, of course.....In fact it is a law.

Secondly, you are a guy who replaces the factory stock moped tires and moped rims on Cycles Maximus Pedi-cabs with 24" BMX rims and tires (bicycle parts). I think that is a very bad idea and instead downgrading to bicycle tires and rims you should at least keep the tires the same level or better.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Lets all take a breather for a few days.