NCR18650PD Anybody heard of this cell yet and maybe a source

They show these discharge graphs because they are honest. The data is presented so an educated consumer can decide how to use it.

Compare that to the total lack of data from HobbyKing RC LiCo. It's borderline criminal to advertise 65C continuous, 130C burst without any verifiable tests, graphs.
 
SamTexas said:
They show these discharge graphs because they are honest. The data is presented so an educated consumer can decide how to use it.

Compare that to the total lack of data from HobbyKing RC LiCo. It's borderline criminal to advertise 65C continuous, 130C burst without any verifiable tests, graphs.

At some time in the future it may be a crime to send such low quality Li-ion in the mail.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x218/biodiesel_2007/SUNP0027_zps1eee51a7.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x218/biodiesel_2007/SUNP0026_zps01de38c6.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x218/biodiesel_2007/SUNP0028_zpse5a116d5.jpg
 
No i'm sorry that's not honesty. They will show you a 3C graph but they won't tell you what the cycle life is like when using the cell at 3C, you just have to make an educated guess. Vendors will advertise the specs based on the most optimal conditions ever which never meet real life conditions as well.

It's like saying, i'm going to sell you this 900 horsepower dual turbo Honda Civic and tell you that it's super reliable and gets 40mpg highway if you drive it like it has no turbo..... then leave out the part where the engine will die a fast death if you ever put it on the track and actually used the 900 horsepower.

Go on, take these cells and run them at 3C in the winter at 35f or during 100F in the summer and tell me how well they do :lol:

A cell like this will commonly be rated at 500-800 cycles at 0.5C continuous in perfect lab temperature at 90% SOC or whatever, but it gets advertised as a 3C high discharge cell by the vendor :lol:

The average person will wonder why they are not getting 500-800 cycles..
 
SamTexas said:
The average person is not the same as an educated consumer.

>90% of consumers are not truly educated. How many people know how to correctly spec an optimal cell for a battery pack? I'd say about a few dozen people on here probably, out of what 15,000 members? and we are typically smarter than your average bear here.

It takes a pretty big investment of time to educate yourself on this stuff. Most people are not interested in spending the time.
 
ohhh you guys :D
Don't forget that is single cell load stress.
They are typically run in parallel under such loads!

Think application use, the most common 18650 sustained high current devices are flashlights.
In high power use they start to parallel cells and LED diodes only hold peak light output for a few minutes before they overheat the torches thermal capacity. Imagine how bright you can now make a small light for short bursts.
I've seen some LED lights come with more engineering than ebikes. You can program them via usb!!!!

E-cigs are another good one, single cell high short burst.

Portable defibrillator.

There is a reason such cells aren't sold without PCM, you dump out that high load without a design element and your in a world of hate.

Numerically 4P goes under 10A loads nets you another Ah in capacity, the point is that 4P pack can now burst 40A.
You got a thermal management system that mitigates power output based on monitored temp you are golden.

You start to sell individual cells that end up in a pack build, well you make HK rc pack look like LiFePo4
 
I run 18650 laptop cells in parallel with A123 cells om my ebike and keep the 18650 cells nice and cool.

The 18650 cells get warm in use in my laptop charging and discharging.

I am thinking they have an easier life on my ebike. :)

Smallest pack of 18650 cells I have tried was 7s and they did not get warm at all discharging in parallel with 8s 6p A123 m1 cells.
 
neptronix said:
SamTexas said:
The average person is not the same as an educated consumer.

>90% of consumers are not truly educated. How many people know how to correctly spec an optimal cell for a battery pack? I'd say about a few dozen people on here probably, out of what 15,000 members? and we are typically smarter than your average bear here.

It takes a pretty big investment of time to educate yourself on this stuff. Most people are not interested in spending the time.

This is why A123 never sold individual cells

One ''consumer'' doing a DIY job has an indecent, a news site runs with the story ''A123 battery unsafe causes...''
Even if the share prices falls a minute percent, that once incident costs more than they ever made celling individual packs.
They then have to deal with all the contracts they have with various car companies, which now have on flow of negativity of a publicized unsafe product.

It comes down to simple fact, it costs them more to sell the individual cells that it does not to.
 
etriker said:
I run 18650 laptop cells in parallel with A123 cells om my ebike and keep the 18650 cells nice and cool.

The 18650 cells get warm in use in my laptop charging and discharging.

I am thinking they have an easier life on my ebike. :)

Smallest pack of 18650 cells I have tried was 7s and they did not get warm at all discharging in parallel with 8s 6p A123 m1 cells.


The 18650 cells are LiFePo4 right?
picard-facepalm-hotlink.jpg
 
To be honest, if I could get my hands on those cells for $4-5 per cell, they would make the ideal cells for a 15s10p pack.
We're talking a nicely sized battery pack with 29Ah 48V.
Even on a Mac discharging at a maximum of 40A and around 25A continuous, the cells shouldn't get stressed too much.
So, if anybody has an affordable source for these cells, I'd be down for a couple hundred of them.
 
Note: this is long winded but please read the part in bold if you don't have patience :lol:

Of course you could size your pack to be large enough to handle the load. It's just that you will need an obscenely large pack to deal with the load and not shorten the life of the cells in the process. Whereas you could use a 5AH nanotech pack or 15AH 20C RC Lipo to get the same power output as say, a 60AH panasonic pack.

Look at how Tesla Motors designs their packs. They design their cars around a 0.5C or lower continuous average load with cells that are very similar to these in output. Yeah, they can burst up to around 5C but they also have to liquid cool the cells to prevent them from exploding when they do that. That adds weight and price. And they can only do those short bursts of 3-5C power for seconds at a time. Put the Model S on a track and it will overheat just like the Roadster did whenever Tesla handed it to an automotive magazine.

If you have long hills to climb, you can hit this 'burst' power for long periods of time on an ebike. That's a problem for a cell that is being extremely stressed.

I don't think anyone here is going to tack on multiple pounds and cost to their pack to add thermal cooling so that they can push a wimpy high energy/low power cell to burst for longer periods of time. You can do 3C or above with liquid cooling but the voltage sag would be horrendous. The more realistic scenario is to use the pack for no more than 1C, and only use these cells if you want a really long distance pack.

I get pissy when i am pushing a 3C load on my 20AH 20C 10S pack and my voltage drops from 38.5v to 38v. Imagine hitting the throttle and putting 3C on a 20AH panasonic pack and seeing the voltage drop from 38.5v to 35v, and your top speed being lowered by 10%.. that just sucks.

Take the same situation in the winter where IR for my RC Lipo pack and your Panasonic pack has increased by 3x.
My lipo pack drops by 1.5v at 3C, and my voltage is 37v.
Your panasonic pack drops by 10.5v at 3C and the voltage is 28v.


One of the cells in the panasonic pack in this situation will hit the 2.5v cutoff point early and the BMS will cut the pack off early, with 25-40% capacity still left in the pack due to the voltage sag. Now in addition to heaving a cooling system, you need a heating system to get around this. Add more cost and weight.

Whereas the higher discharge cell needs none of this heating/cooling business as there is tons of headroom in the discharge spec to reliably run in extreme heat or extreme cold.

By the way, as cells age, their internal resistance gains. The panasonic pack will become saggier over time. Whereas the high discharge cell has plenty of headroom in it, so when it gains internal resistance, it isn't hit as badly as the low discharge cell. Which pack is more likely to achieve the promised cycle count if pushed to 3C?

My point is this.... leave headroom in your specs if you want a battery to live anywhere near the cycle count. A stinkin' huge pack of panasonics could be great, but you cannot expect these to do 3C or even 2C. A great rule of thumb is to operate a battery at no higher than 25% the maximum C rate claimed.
 
neptronix said:
Note: this is long winded but please read the part in bold if you don't have patience :lol:

Of course you could size your pack to be large enough to handle the load. It's just that you will need an obscenely large pack to deal with the load and not shorten the life of the cells in the process. Whereas you could use a 5AH nanotech pack or 15AH 20C RC Lipo to get the same power output as say, a 60AH panasonic pack.

Look at how Tesla Motors designs their packs. They design their cars around a 0.5C or lower continuous average load with cells that are very similar to these in output. Yeah, they can burst up to around 5C but they also have to liquid cool the cells to prevent them from exploding when they do that. That adds weight and price. And they can only do those short bursts of 3-5C power for seconds at a time. Put the Model S on a track and it will overheat just like the Roadster did whenever Tesla handed it to an automotive magazine.

If you have long hills to climb, you can hit this 'burst' power for long periods of time on an ebike. That's a problem for a cell that is being extremely stressed.

I don't think anyone here is going to tack on multiple pounds and cost to their pack to add thermal cooling so that they can push a wimpy high energy/low power cell to burst for longer periods of time. You can do 3C or above with liquid cooling but the voltage sag would be horrendous. The more realistic scenario is to use the pack for no more than 1C, and only use these cells if you want a really long distance pack.

I get pissy when i am pushing a 3C load on my 20AH 20C 10S pack and my voltage drops from 38.5v to 38v. Imagine hitting the throttle and putting 3C on a 20AH panasonic pack and seeing the voltage drop from 38.5v to 35v, and your top speed being lowered by 10%.. that just sucks.

Take the same situation in the winter where IR for my RC Lipo pack and your Panasonic pack has increased by 3x.
My lipo pack drops by 1.5v at 3C, and my voltage is 37v.
Your panasonic pack drops by 10.5v at 3C and the voltage is 28v.


One of the cells in the panasonic pack in this situation will hit the 2.5v cutoff point early and the BMS will cut the pack off early, with 25-40% capacity still left in the pack due to the voltage sag. Now in addition to heaving a cooling system, you need a heating system to get around this. Add more cost and weight.

Whereas the higher discharge cell needs none of this heating/cooling business as there is tons of headroom in the discharge spec to reliably run in extreme heat or extreme cold.

By the way, as cells age, their internal resistance gains. The panasonic pack will become saggier over time. Whereas the high discharge cell has plenty of headroom in it, so when it gains internal resistance, it isn't hit as badly as the low discharge cell. Which pack is more likely to achieve the promised cycle count if pushed to 3C?

That is why you would want to back them up with a strong high c current main pack and use the 18650s to extend the main pack.

The 18650 pack does not have to be so large to have an easy life. :)
 
schwibsi said:
To be honest, if I could get my hands on those cells for $4-5 per cell, they would make the ideal cells for a 15s10p pack.
Don't know a source for NCR18650PD. But here's the best deal I have heard of:
NCR18650A $6.64/cell
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41262
 
You can't really compare the two.

It really comes down to an underlining factor of production quality and by all accounts HK lipo is shit due to a complete lack of QA.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/stgoxm7lvli0kok/2012-11-01 11.31.29.jpg
Disassembled Zippy 5s8Ah, showing solder splatter between cells due to use of semi automated production line that has minimal procedures when pack building.

That is why they are fine in RC toys that fly far away from you, not so much underneath your crotch.

I fully understand your logical reason as it does equate best for your application, rockets need rocket fuel.

Amusingly winter isn't a big issue with the euro retail ebike market, they don't tend to ride as much (then again when they ride they pedal)
The whole parasitic BMS drain becomes the bigger issue, rather than having a high IR
Not saying that waves away the IR issues, just saying it's not reflect as a big issue within the industry.
But this is a hobbiest board so maybe my mindset is all wrong.

These things should be great for low kW commercial set-ups which can finally get a '18650 cell without 40Ah packs or Keps new build ;)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47139
 
I'm glad you see what i'm getting at.

On the topic of pack construction, you can buy bare hobbyking RC Lipo cells and construct them yourself but few want to do that, i know i don't. Same issue with 18650's, that's a labor of love.

Those pack construction problems with hobbyking aren't all too common but i agree that it'd be nice if they were non existant ( like you know, they did actual QC on the packs so that you didn't have to weed out bad packs they ship )

Samsung 5C NMC & some higher output LG NMC cells seem to be a nice compromise between power and energy.
 
neptronix said:
Samsung 5C NMC & some higher output LG NMC cells seem to be a nice compromise between power and energy.

Yup and they are getting better!

They seem to have nailed the production for the form factor, hopefully they can push it further without reaching a cap.
Then again they are pioneering density and the factor never had C in mind

I know they can to 4Ah a cells, hopefully that comes with some improvements in C rating.
No doubt through use of lovely key words like nano and carbon... :roll:

They way we hope forward as an ebike industry is the trails of the ecar industry, if that goes with smaller format cell we are golden.
If they jump to a thundersky style 40Ah cell the flow on will be minimized.

Just look how well we reaped from A123 failure, reminds me of LFP's banter about the civic locomotive that crashed.
 
neptronix said:
And they can only do those short bursts of 3-5C power for seconds at a time. Put the Model S on a track and it will overheat just like the Roadster did whenever Tesla handed it to an automotive magazine.


Way to hate on the Model S and guess it will overheat on track. It could be true but I had to see misinformation spread. Where are you getting this info from???

The Roadster did overheat on track because it had an air-cooled motor. The Model S motor is liquid cooled and the cooling system is an all new design. I can't see it overheating on a normal road track, but I could be wrong.
 
It's not unusual for ICE road cars to suffer some kind of failure when hammered continuously around a track.

A notorious motoring journo in the UK used to do a "supercar roundup" DVD on a tracktrack each year, and later wrote that it was difficult to get the filming done as most of the cars would suffer failure.
 
Hi,
I built a 5P14S pack from these cells a couple of months back for a family member. He hasn't finished the rest of the bike yet so no real world results.

I bought 72 cellts from fasttech for ~$7 each deliverd, the price is now around $6. I had 1 spare after repairs were made to a demaged cell and I have since worked out how to test with my hyperion 1420i.

Charging a cell at 1A from a static voltage of 3.3V to 4.2 V, the cell took about 2500mA.

However dischagre at 3A down to 3V the cell only gave 2100mA

dischage at 5A and the capacity droped to 1500mA.

The internal resistance in all cases was ~ 50mohm

Unfortunatly the hyperion can't dicahge to below 3V as these can drop to 2.5V.

The performance of the tested cell was inferior to the posted dicharge charts in other forums. Maybe I tested a dud cell or fastech suply used or 'B' rate cells?

I will order a couple more to retest, as I would like to build more packs from these cells if I can get improved performance.

I'm also interested to here of tests from other memebers

Cheers
Matt
 
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