Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

[liveforphysics]

Nice build!

 

[brumbrum]

I have a couple of questions,
will this be available to buy as just a frame and drive train combo. Most of us riding off-road bikes like this already have the the rest of the bike parts. I.e forks, brakes, wheels etc.

And, will this motor type, either inrunner or outrunner be compatible with the adaptto comtrollers? I cannot see why not.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[1abv]

Cant wait for these units to go live! looks pretty rapid and well made..

 

[Routybouty]

What are the dimensions of the box so we can start speculating on how many cells we can jam in there :lol: :lol:?!

 

[justinasp]

The other pics look more like an 8" rear to me- so possibly to be determined, as the jackshaft should be tunable for optimal final gearing (and physical size). The motor doesn't look like an outrunner. . . .?

Indeed, the sprocket is yet to be determined, we wanted to try the bigger one for the torque. It is outrunner now, working on in-runner alternative

something custom, or off the shelf?

The motors are modified, all of them

 

[justinasp]

I have a couple of questions,
will this be available to buy as just a frame and drive train combo. Most of us riding off-road bikes like this already have the the rest of the bike parts. I.e forks, brakes, wheels etc.

And, will this motor type, either inrunner or outrunner be compatible with the adaptto comtrollers? I cannot see why not.

Thanks
Andrew

Thanks Andrew! We will start with complete bike, so combinations and parts might be available only in the future, and this is not yet confirmed. Stay tuned.

Now for the controller we have another solution since we need 20 kW of power

 

[justinasp]

Cant wait for these units to go live! looks pretty rapid and well made..

Thanks! it is rapid

 

[bionicon]

If I may guess ,I think its the hacker Q150 motor inside with the HST-350 controller??

 

[macribs]

Too bad I don't speak German. Seems all the info about the Q150 is in German only

 

[bionicon]

Not my language too but I use google translate. Send them a mail for more information about this motor, because there is nothing of technical info on the website.

 

[macribs]

I might just do that if I first can find some more information on the controller HST 350. It seems it got a 60v limit.
Well I am not going to get all excited about this, cos I would need a new frame for such a motor/controller combo and I have still lot of refinements on the one I am riding at the moment. It is really hard to find the time to focus on e-bike service or repair when the weather is nice, sun is shining and all you wanna do is ride.

 

[scrambler]

Just found out about this very exciting bike, congratulation on a beautiful design!

I hope we will have more information soon

Can you tell us if the bike will have a Pedal Assist mode and if yes if it will be torque sensor based?

Also does it have any regen functionality? ON/OFF or proportional? On a separate button or lever or on the brakes lever?...

Thanks

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Not sure how I missed this build before, I LOVE IT!

Trellis style frames are my favorite!

Hope to see them being demo'd in my neck of the woods soon! 8)

 

[justinasp]

If I may guess ,I think its the hacker Q150 motor inside with the HST-350 controller??

Thanks for your guess! As we exchanged emails, we are using heavily modified RV160 Pro, the SL controller is developed for Neematic by Pear Control.

 

[macribs]

Seems the pear controllers are some serious controllers. Look forward to see your custom version.
Have you tested @20 kw yet? The 160 pro how heavy is it modified?

 

[justinasp]

Just found out about this very exciting bike, congratulation on a beautiful design!

I hope we will have more information soon

Can you tell us if the bike will have a Pedal Assist mode and if yes if it will be torque sensor based?

Also does it have any regen functionality? ON/OFF or proportional? On a separate button or lever or on the brakes lever?...

Thanks

Thanks scrambler! More information is coming as we are building new website for everyone to understand Neematic better. Pedal assist mode might be coming in the future, what we have developed now is direct transmission from motor to the wheel.

And sure regen is there already, proportional adjustment. It will be on a separate button but glad you asked - what is your preference? Let us know more about your experience. We are still discussing many usability elements and collecting feedback.

 

[justinasp]

Seems the pear controllers are some serious controllers. Look forward to see your custom version.
Have you tested @20 kw yet? The 160 pro how heavy is it modified?

It's working! Two 20 kW motors are in place and everything is fine regarding the performance. Not sure about the weight now, around 9 kg

 

[justinasp]

Not sure how I missed this build before, I LOVE IT!

Trellis style frames are my favorite!

Hope to see them being demo'd in my neck of the woods soon! 8)

Thanks! Appreciate the feedback. Lots of positive feedback on the bike design - exciting and keeps us going!

 

[scrambler]

Just found out about this very exciting bike, congratulation on a beautiful design!
I hope we will have more information soon
Can you tell us if the bike will have a Pedal Assist mode and if yes if it will be torque sensor based?
Also does it have any regen functionality? ON/OFF or proportional? On a separate button or lever or on the brakes lever?...
Thanks

Thanks scrambler! More information is coming as we are building new website for everyone to understand Neematic better. Pedal assist mode might be coming in the future, what we have developed now is direct transmission from motor to the wheel.

And sure regen is there already, proportional adjustment. It will be on a separate button but glad you asked - what is your preference? Let us know more about your experience. We are still discussing many usability elements and collecting feedback.

1- For pedal assist, If you do not already know about it, you may want to have a look at the BEAMts sensor. It is a Torque sensor that measures the tension in the pedaling chain, and applies throttle proportional to the pressure on the pedals, which is the most natural and intuitive pedal assist you can get (super human feel).
It is a throttle pass through system, so very easy to implement, It self calibrates, but they also have a programming tool for it.
It does not work for mid drives with a common chain for pedaling and motor (sensor would respond to motor induced tension), but given you have a separate chain system for pedaling and for the motor, it could actually work on your mid drive configuration. Below are a few links about it.
SantamonicaEV, the developers:
http://www.santamonicaev.com/page12/movies/index.html
http://www.beamtssample.com/page-2/index.html
Reseller
http://www.ebikes.ca/beamts.html
User feedback thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67086


2- For regen, I personally like the idea of a sensor on the brake levers, so that you can activate variable / proportional regen in the first portion of the brake action.
I know a separate lever can be a nice thing in some cases, but ultimately I like simplicity of use first. You want regen when you want to slow down, and the standard action for that are the brakes.
Similar to an electric car like the Volt, where the main regen is mapped on the brake pedal, as you apply braking action it starts by using regen, then uses the mechanical brakes. On the Gen2 Volt you now also have a paddle for regen, but it ends up being more of an occasional use.
You can debate if it should be on both brakes, or just the front, or just the rear
In all cases, I think variable regen is best (not just on/off), with ability to set the max regen level available, so it goes from zero to max setting.

Looking forward to your progress

 

[scrambler]

I am also curious of the final gearing between bottom bracket, motor, and rear wheel.

On some of the pictures there is a real large rear sprocket, like 70/80 teeth.
With such a large rear sprocket, It seems it would be a challenge to size the other components to get a decent pedaling cadence.

 

[Tyro]

Maybe you didn't noticed they will use pinion gear drive in BB. So you can select gearing for comfort pedaling. I had test ride with neematic already, so I didn't thought about pedaling with so much power and torque

 

[macribs]

Maybe you didn't noticed they will use pinion gear drive in BB. So you can select gearing for comfort pedaling. I had test ride with neematic already, so I didn't thought about pedaling with so much power and torque

so tell us more about your test ride. What kind of power does it put out? It seems Neematic might do various peak power versions. Initially it was all about 20 kw mid drive. But I know they also got a 15 kw version.

How was the Neematic compared to other hi powered builds? Most common is hi power DD hubs. Did you find the benefits of no heavy dd hub motor to be very easy to notice when riding? I mean how did the bike handle sharp turn ins, wash board bumps, and quick turn at high speed? Feedback from the rear suspension? How easy was it to feel the advantages of centralized masses? I mean no heavy hub in the rear, motor low in the frame. Less prone to kick back/up the rear wheel fast and hard when hitting big bumps at high speed or multiple big bumps in a row? Did you get to do any jumps with the Neematic? How was it in the air compared to dd hubs? And how was the landing?

 

[Tyro]

Maybe you didn't noticed they will use pinion gear drive in BB. So you can select gearing for comfort pedaling. I had test ride with neematic already, so I didn't thought about pedaling with so much power and torque

so tell us more about your test ride. What kind of power does it put out? It seems Neematic might do various peak power versions. Initially it was all about 20 kw mid drive. But I know they also got a 15 kw version.

How was the Neematic compared to other hi powered builds? Most common is hi power DD hubs. Did you find the benefits of no heavy dd hub motor to be very easy to notice when riding? I mean how did the bike handle sharp turn ins, wash board bumps, and quick turn at high speed? Feedback from the rear suspension? How easy was it to feel the advantages of centralized masses? I mean no heavy hub in the rear, motor low in the frame. Less prone to kick back/up the rear wheel fast and hard when hitting big bumps at high speed or multiple big bumps in a row? Did you get to do any jumps with the Neematic? How was it in the air compared to dd hubs? And how was the landing?

No, have not tried to test it in hard way. Thaw was not my point. I only wanted to try acceleration, cornering, suspension, because I have have used only HUB motors in front or rear wheel before. I drove on gravel road, nowhere to jump, only flat with some rocks on sides. Acceleration was fantastic, suspension worked very good I was not scared to reach high speed. I wouldnt feel comfortable on that speed with DD motor in wheel on gravel road, especially when cornering. It reaches max speed in few seconds. To test handling you have to drive more time than me did as you should feel this bike as every new bike. Wheelbase looked long enough not to lift front wheel out of ground when i do not want that, but I have prepared for that and pushed handlebars downwards before acceleration. It is not final version, development is in progress, Neematic tests existing and trying new components and new settings. Bike weight is not heavy, now it weights near 40-45kg feeling from hand and that was surprise for me. Ride range is at least 60km when pushing bikes limits with current battery, and battery current was set to ~300A. I don't think i reached that current I see a lot of advantages in work of rear suspension comparing with DD. One of most noticeable differences after DD is sound which makes a chain of mid-drive

 

[bionicon]

Is there maybe the opportunity to testdrive the bike at euromot? Not the offroadtest ,but just to feel the bike and his power?

 

[scrambler]

Maybe you didn't noticed they will use pinion gear drive in BB. So you can select gearing for comfort pedaling. I had test ride with neematic already, so I didn't thought about pedaling with so much power and torque

I know that, but it does not change the question, because even on the p1.18, the gear ratio is between 0.3 and 1.8, so if you need to compensate for a one to 8 ratio on the rear, it does not help much.