New Crystalites...a game changer?

Yep...still think its worth a thousand bucks....remember i had the jittering at speed from the get go. At any speed less than 30mph its fine...and you can accelerate past the jittering. Its just an annoyance more than anything at this point...i keep asking the same question though...am i risking breaking something?

Would do great at the 1k price point if they just put a lock down on cheap goods coming in from china.

If we didnt have a "free trade agreement" with china...maybe that motor would be made here...and guaranteed it would cost $1000 and with no other option americans would buy it...and maybe appreciate it more cuz it cost 1k...maybe ride it a lot more.

Its china that has us all spoiled...and we are growing to expect cheap quality.

Its absolutely amazing what you can buy these days for your money thanks to china...and i dont think anyone is really seriously arguing to let all that go and "buy american" anymore. If you notice...the "buy american" motto among americans has all but disappeared. I dont know what the story is in Australia TBH.

We are on a fast downhill spiral ride...this crystalite in all its goodness and cheapness is more evidence of that fact. My prediction is within 10 years we will have funneled all our money to china....and will be sellling off all real estate corporote ownership etc whatever we got left....to buy more. USA in 20 years will be a virtual chinese colony, and we will all be slaves, farmers and delivery boys with awesome china made toys....this crystalite is a foreshadowing of that. Atleast we will be able to make our deliveries on cool cheap chinese cargo bikes...china will eventually cut out all middlemen (ie amazon, fedex, ups) and outsource us as direct slaves...because laborers worldwide in the future is going to be cheap cheap... Hows that?
 
The mass market is never going to want a 16lbs motor on their bikes. They want their e-bikes to weigh the same as a bike and pedal the same as a bike if they aren't using power. The less it has these abilities the less people will be willing to deal w/ the greater initial costs over a gas moped.

Pedal bikes aren't even mainstream transportation in flat, densely populated places w/ good weather. E-bikes will never be a mass market in the US.
 
Rifle said:
The mass market is never going to want a 16lbs motor on their bikes. They want their e-bikes to weigh the same as a bike and pedal the same as a bike if they aren't using power. The less it has these abilities the less people will be willing to deal w/ the greater initial costs over a gas moped.

Pedal bikes aren't even mainstream transportation in flat, densely populated places w/ good weather. E-bikes will never be a mass market in the US.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head with those statements!
 
:roll:
Except that no one has yet to test the market with a quality affordable, speedy bike...not even close...maybe the a2b?

You would be amazed what people will put up with if they are able to save money and have fun.

See what $10 a gallon gasoline will do to the "i am not riding with 16lbs in my wheel" ideal. I can see the logic when the hub weighed 26 pounds and cost $500...now we are talking 16lbs and $200...and dropping.

See what a real 50 mile range and 25mph will do to the bicycle ethic....maybe people will really start using all these bike trails once electric technology bicycles become available...and cheap cheap.

Time will tell....i could be wrong...these new crystallites could make barely a ripple in the american LEV market....i could be very wrong...but i doubt it.
 
Hey Green

Glad to see you are having fun with your new motor! sounds like synch issues for sure, you shouldnt do any damage though however it will be annoying, you can split the motor and fit halls anyway as the stator is notched to take them, I think I would go with a sensored motor until a decent sensorless controller hits the market though.

As far as value goes they do seem to be very good value, the X5 I have on one of my bikes is amazing but too heavy, I still think the 9C is also a good motor though, it depends what you want out of an ebike, anyone pushing over 2KW imho is riding an electric motorbike or a moped what ever you want to call it, you might have peddles but you aint contributing squat no matter if you think you are :lol:

As for being a game changer I dont think so to be honest, for sure its a great motor from first impressions and certainly the price but the thing that will always cripple the ebike as a viable form of transport for the masses are many fold but the main one being the law, dealers cant afford the issues with selling illegal ebikes to the public, the only way an ebike would become a game changer is if the law makers said there are no limits on power or put them up at a high level, then you still have the expensive battery pack issue, charger BMS etc etc, you only have to look at the tidalforce bikes that were also supposed to be a game changer to see how wrong they got that.

You have to remember these things are made in the PRC so as such a 200 dollar motor is a fair price considering their infrastructure and in many ways the ebike is already a game changer in China now this is partly whats driving the cost down for us here in the west.

I think that some folks have gotten to fixated on speed and not looked at this long term or looked in to the issues that may arise from running such high power all the time, for me 2KW is enough for anyone on a pushbike period, you want more than that or want to go quicker than that then get a motorbike that is designed to go that quick, my fear is that folks are going to get hurt or hurt others, I dont fear the demise of the ebike as they are so rare compared to other forms of transport, I think the real game changer here in the UK at least is that cycling on normal bikes is on the up consider that we pay 3 times what you guys do for petrol here in the UK you would think the streets would be teaming with ebikes, not so! the bottom line is you could make gas / petrol 3 times as much as we pay for it now and these same folks would not be riding an ebike powerful or not, such is the love affair with the car.

Anyway glad you love your motor and hope you get a controller that works with it, deecanio is getting his one at the weekend its sensored though running on 100V so watch this space for some videos and tests, I can run side by side with my X5 although I know someone has already posted a video of this.

If 72V at 40mph is going to change the game now then its taking its time :twisted: see this old video I reposted but originally from (2006) from Devin doing just the same on an X5 72V over the GG bridge, he sold all this kit and went a bought a fixie? go figure? http://www.vimeo.com/13770828
 
Maybe not THIS motor, but definitively the way the technology is moving towards lighter, more reliable components while the price of gas/insurance/car ownership sky rockets.

people will not get rid of their cars fully...but a 2 car family might just go to a one car family and see significant savings.

when A2B costs 4x the cost of what bikes CAN cost....

3, 4 years ago the thought havent even entered my mind to use an e-bike for commuting....now....well ...i am here arent i?
 
I think green is just a little pumped by the performance that he has seen from his motor which is great to see and hear but I just dont think much is going to change thats all, we are all on here for a number of reasons, some like to make commuter machines, some high powered fun bikes, some off road, some on road, not all are here because they want to save the world or are worried about the price of gas either, there are a massive variety of folks and opinions thats what makes it a fun place to be.

I will agree that the batteries have got better and this is where the key lies as far as game changing goes, power going up, size and weight coming down, capacity going up and price coming down however again cars are a hard thing for folks to step out of, we are the lucky ones as we know what fun can be had and how much time you can save by making your journeys on an ebike.

I will say one thing, I have never ever had a hobby that has kept me as addicted as this has in my forty years alive on this planet and I was one of those kids that tried everything and quickly got bored with stuff, not this though :twisted: :twisted:
 
No no no....not this...

A lot of people are addicted on here and for good reason.....not always is one to be on the absolute forefront of a technology that is about to transform the planet. Make no mistake about it....ebikes are about to surpass bicycles....u heard it here first plz don't forget. On the sphere....we are all witnesses....
 
Green Machine said:
No no no....not this...

A lot of people are addicted on here and for good reason.....not always is one to be on the absolute forefront of a technology that is about to transform the planet. Make no mistake about it....ebikes are about to surpass bicycles....u heard it here first plz don't forget. On the sphere....we are all witnesses....
Click to expand...


Funniest thing i have read on here for awhile :lol: ....Your right Knoxie, this chap is a little
pumped... erm perhaps 'over' pumped even haha..Green man, your completely wrong you
heared it forst from me on the Sphere... This motor will change squat, the 9C is a nice
:: cough :: light frock motor performs better than this thing your praising as it has
HALL SENSORS in it and doesnt jitter and lose sync... As Knoxie said also, i'm glad
your enjoying your new motor and i hope you get it fixed...

LFP_Flaming_Frock_Motor.JPG

Another look at this motor at its best....smoking and on fire :mrgreen:

Flaming Cocks on a frock video

KiM
 
The real game changer is lithium. Before lithium The interest was low. Green you may have found a great motor but there will be better in time. Now that we can provide a good power source. But the game changer goes much broader than bikes. It will potentially change the planet. I expect our houses will have lithium closets and we will store the wasted overnight electric. The raw material supply is good for 200 years plus.
I think it is still very early in the global demand for lithium. And there is investment opportunity. Not in the motor makers or batery makers but in the lithium miners. The global big boy with 50% market share is Rockwood Intl. symbol ROC. The miner is in everybodies business. Like Microsoft is in every computer. It has doubled for me in the last year and if this a global game changer like Green Machine says it is just the begining.
I got a hunch a bet a bunch and got lucky.
 
Lipo is the way to go on batteries but they need to be safer I think. I don't know if the bike thing will ever truely catch on in the midwest. It rains like everyday here. It's ridiculous. I can't imagine people riding a bike in the rain.

I'm sorry but it's not going to be e-bicycles. It's going to be possible something like a velomobile with an enclosure with maybe an e-bike hub to power it. I just don't think people are going to ride in the rain.
 
You are right Morph, the car has become an extension of the home, all safe and cocooned inside, comfortable, you control the temperature, you don't get wet, you can conduct conversations with your passengers, you travel in comfort and with some style, its no wonder the car wins peoples affections, its a shame though as you get used to riding a bike esp for commuting you get used to the idea very quickly and when you see the health and the speed benefit its a no brainer, there would have to be something really bad outside for me not to take my bike to work, taking the car would be like a major issue for me.

I think when we reach gridlock on the roads here in the UK then it may happen as sitting in a car going nowhere simply wont be an option, this is what has happened in China, the fact also that as a race they are smaller and lighter than some they are so well suited to ebikes, combine that with their relative expense and you have a winner on your hands.

Its nice at the moment like a secret only you and a few online friends know about, I like the fact that I am pretty much the only hardcore ebiker in the town, there are some off the peg bikes about but nothing in my league 8) be nice to keep it that way for a while, they can sit in their cars i will power around them :lol:
 
I agree with Knoxie - I see all of the cars with a single person in jamming up the roads here in Oxford - on the rare occasion I take my car to work, it takes anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes to get there. On the bike, it rarely takes more than 5.

On average, I drive around 500 miles per year now, but have been commuting daily on an ebike for nigh on a decade. Now in the process of increasing the size of my battery pack, as when I go to the peripheral hospitals, I need to reliably cover up to 50 miles round trip.

Even in the rain - irritating as it can be - I still generally prefer it to the frustration of sitting fuming in a gridlocked car...

There are downsides of course - most recently being knocked off by a bus while I was in a cycle lane!

dermot
 
Well here is what i am thinking....wholesale pricing: $150 new crystalite motor, $80 controller, $500 36v 20ah lipo battery with bms, $50 misc accessories (throttle, bag, rack), $220 installation fee or profit for seller. Right now it is possible to make a hell of a machine with a 20mph legal speed and 40 mile range battery pack for $1000 out of a bicycle that just takes up space in the garage. Not bad. Performance per $ its whats really amazing about this new motor at an acceptable weight.

Agreed 100% Lithium is the real game changer....but its still very pricey...the most expensive and hard to get part in the equation. A new cheap easy to buy battery is what will make everything "explode".

I grew up in the midwest...and from what i remember every garage seemed to have at least one bicycle. Lots of mid-westerners own motor bikes as well.

Same as in cali.

Thing is no one seems to ride their bicycles...in the midwest and here in cali....bicycles is something everyone seems to own but no one ever seems to use. Americans tend to be lazy and dont like to leave their houses unless they have to...to get to work..to go gf's house, to go to the corner bar...commuting to another indoors basically. Lazy americans have to have electric motors...and they gotta be cheap and reliable.

When the price gets down to convert a bicyce to a 20mph 40 mile range electric machine to about $500, and at the same time gasoline goes up to $10 (i figure they will happen about the same time) I bet the first statistic you will first see passed is miles ridden per year bikes vs ebikes. Oh and ebikes will definitely outsell motorcycles when that 500/10 price convergence point thing occurs.

Also you gotta remember my theory that all americans is going to be broke in 10 years....we are all going to want electric cars..but will settle on ebicyles....right now americans have money to burn and are burning right through it.

The midwesterners will be first to go broke, and will be first to buy ebikes. Right now is a good time to invest in Surly since they are the only company that currently makes snow tires for bicycles (surly endomorph). Also padagonia since they make the warmest jackets.

And take china for example. No one can know for sure...but it sure seem ebikes are passing bikes in terms of miles ridden, maybe even units sold....and have definately passed cars and motorcyces on both statistics. And dont forget how cold it gets in china.

SO if it is the case in china....its not so far fetched it can happen here.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703657604575005140241751852.html

And by the way china has 1000 ebikes death a year and rising, and the country is cracking down with strict requirements pertaining to weight and speed limits of ebikes.

You might think that kind of revolution will never happen here because the average american has so much money...but lets just see what happens..i theorize we wont have that much money for very long. We manufacture almost nothing, and all that we do manufacture will eventually be outsourced or technology cloned. The middleman we have now between china and the consumer (ie apple, amazon, walmart) will eventually be phased out after china figures out how to build proper websites. (ie hobbyking)

We are on the downhill folks...ebikes in the future might just become a necessity for us to get to our work as delivery people for those chinese websites. :D
 
After reading that post I have decided to go to the nearest bridge and jump......

Love reading optimistic posts such as that.

Tom
 
litespeed said:
After reading that post I have decided to go to the nearest bridge and jump......

Love reading optimistic posts such as that.

Tom
Click to expand...

Hey tom quick tip on that...

Golden gate bridge is #1 suicide hot spot in the world...but its crowded all summer making bridge jumping embarrassing and inconvenient when you gotta do it in a crowd.


Golden gate bridge at night they wont let you on the bridge after dark as a pedestrian...you got to have a bridge guy buzz you in. But on a bicycle or ebike they will buzz you on 24 hours no prob :) Bridge at night on pedestrian walkway is nearly deserted...nice time for private time...reflect life etc.

But you gotta do the big jump quick since they are working on legislation to make ebikes illegal on gg bridge...i am assuming ofcourse you ride an ebike and not a bicycle.

Sf is great place to come for one last hoorah, spend all your spare cash living it up rockstar style before the big night....

If you decide to come to SF please pm me and we will hook up for a beer before your big jump. :D

Also, i think this is exciting time to be alive....most exciting times since the 60's....we really do not know where we will be in 10 years...its hard to predict which direction the world/country is going to go...but its fun predicting...and next years is definitely going to be fun to watch.

The World is developing at a super rate...world economies are leveling...amazing toys are being developed from unimaginable places...including kick ass cheap electric bikes...and nice new crystalite motor.

Americans dont like the fact that we are no longer responsible for building half the worlds products like we were in the 60's, but we seem to enjoy being middleman (ie google) for the time being...we will find our place in the new world somewhere.

Cheer up...this is exciting times. I think we got 1969 nearly beat in terms of quality of life and "fun to witness" excitement....enjoy it...rise or fall...its going to be a thrill ride.
 
The only game changer is the 5400 Series. The new hs and ht35 is just building upon whats already other. They havent brought anything new to the table. Sensorless is not a new technology either. One design change to where it would be a game changer is if they found some way to add cooling. Th higher we can get the continuous duty ratings on these motors the easier they will be to hot rod and make in to moped/entry level motor cycles. The 5300 series was really good about this but it eventually reaches a critical point at some point of time. The 5400 series is bigger heaver and wider and generates more torque and I think with it higher efficiency and mass makes it a good motor to evolve and improve upon. With the gurus we have on the forum it offers a shit load more space on the inside of the motor. If they were to have made it with straight stator teeth and it was would like other traditional hub motors it would have been nice to see delta Wye or dual tapped windings ltheike the 400 series clytes. Everyone has their wishes and wants. We just gotta throw the ideas up and wait on the delivery or go the extra mile like mark and get a custom made motor and improve on it further at your own mill.shop.
 
John in CR said:
Cheap batteries is the game changer that's holding everything up.
Click to expand...


Yup.
 
When factoring in the very long life of lithium isn't it already the cheapest solution when considering cost per anything? It seems to me the drawback is there is a large amount of cash upfront. But average cost per I think is cheap.
 
liveforphysics said:
I have a 5304 and an HX35 here, and a dyno, and a 18kw power supply feeding a batt bank and controllers that can do up to 60kw.
Click to expand...

Quiet a lot of cars here in Europe are only <60KW
sSig_heeheehee.gif
 
I hope technology moves faster because I guess I'm in the minority but I think technology moves way too slowly.

I was born in the early 70s. Back then we rode around in big gas guzzling cars made in Detroit (where I lived at the time).

In the 80s, I still rode around in those same cars but they were front wheel drive (big whoop...) and I used unleaded gas instead of leaded (which was "regular" at the time). Gas mileage got better.

In the 90s, I still rode around in those cars but I guess I got richer because I drove cars built in Europe (BMW, MBZ, etc.) rather than cars built in Detroit and I pumped super unleaded gas. Gas mileage was about the same.

In the new millenium, 2000s, I still drove these imported cars, pumped super unleaded gas, and get roughly the same mileage that I got in the 90s and late 80s.

It's 2010 (edit: aw crap, it's 2011!)...and I'm pretty sure that in 2020, I will be writing a similar post except that more cars are hybrids and a few cars are electric but most people still pump super unleaded gas into their BMWs and MBZs. The freeways and roads that I drive on today are the same ones that people in my neighborhood drove on 20, 30 years ago.

In 2030, 2040, and 2050...I wouldn't be surprised if I'm still in LA driving a car down the 405 freeway in traffic and seeing the same buildings except they've just been renovated a few times.

Technology is way too slow. I want to be riding on hovercrafts, pods that travel through air, etc...in short, I want to live the life of the Jetsons!
 
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