New Cyclone 500w & PING keeps tripping

[dogman dan]

Seems like we've been down this road before, with cyclones tending to pull a big spike. It may matter what gear you are in, for one thing.
Combined with a bms that trips lower than it's supposed to, that could be a problem. I'd say get the bms from ping, but also confirm that the battery is ok with some kind of load test, seeing if one set of cells has less capacity etc.

 

[gerlewis]

well I just waiting on the new lead, and also the bms from ping. The new high rate BMS can allow 60a continuous discharge current and 100a peak. I wonder if this will a) damage the cells, and b)allow me to go faster than 42kph.

Ger

 

[dogman dan]

60 amps continuous will be 3c on a 20 ah ping, so yup. But your controller won't allow that much continuous will it? If it does, you had too small a battery all along. 20 amps x 24v = 480 watts, so I doubt your 500 watt motor is drawing 60 amps continuous. More likely is the noise problem, which I had not heard of.

So chances are, your controller is 20-30 amp, and will be ok with a 20 ah ping.

 

[gerlewis]

lead has arrived, will try it tonight...

 

[gerlewis]

Ping says:

"The high current drawn by the controller or motor appears only in a moment.
So, it won't damage the cell. Furthermore, our v2.5 cell actually can
withstand 4C-5C peak discharge rate. But if you let it always working at 4C
or 5C, the lifecycle will be significantly reduced. But if for a moment, no
problem."

 

[deardancer3]

The 500w cyclone in normal operations, will draw 20 amps continous maximum, but will draw 30 amps for a minute or two, and will draw 40 amps for ~5 seconds.

Unless you are trying to abuse the motor, that is the maximums you will see under normal conditions, climbing a hill, heavy load, but in the appropriate gear.

I still think you have a degraded BMS, possibly from the cyclone noise. The cyclone noise filter should be put on no matter what. we might be lucky and only have a BMS affected by cyclone EMF noise.

The testing described earlier is the way to go.

later

d

 

[gerlewis]

Well, I tried the new lead and it worked fine. So then I tried the old lead again just to check, and it also worked fine. Hmm. :?

I think I will take a few more trips on the old lead this weekend for further testing, and if it fails again, swap to the new. (its not a straight swap for quick comparison sadly, as soldering needs to be done, unless I buy another powerpole 50a connector plug.)

Ger

 

[deardancer3]

possibly a bad BMS to battery connection that got reseated with the swapping of BMS..

loose plug in connector?

guessing.

dick

 

[gerlewis]

Well the new lead did not work. Same problem after some decent testing.

I have noticed that with both leads the problem sometimes only occurs after 5mins, but once it comes it remains then for the duration of the ride, on for 2 seconds then cuts out, time after time.

Ger

 

[deardancer3]

So what is the change you tried, a capacitor on the end of the battery is all?

If the big emf spikes have compromised the BMS already, the cap wont fix the damage. If it is big EMF spikes, changing the routing of the wires could have an effect on the failure.

Have you tried the two car batteries on the stand or the two light bulbs on the battery?

D

 

[gerlewis]

"Have you tried the two car batteries on the stand or the two light bulbs on the battery? "

no, but these are the two tests I fully intend to do. Bulbs first, as i'm struggling to get 2 car batteries (I ride an ebike after all!)

I also have a new BMS on the way.

Watch this space and thanks for the help thus far.

Ger

 

[deardancer3]

the meter is the easiest; do you see a dip in voltage at failure time; riding or on the stand?

Or just move the battery voltage take-off point from the BMS to directly on the last cell. that fixed mine, but it requries some electonic savvy. not much though. use the BMS for charging, but not for discharge, until the new BMS comes.



d

 

[gerlewis]

Thanks D.

My multimeter has arrived, so where do I stick the contacts on my meter while the bike is running - to check for a voltage dip? )(I assume on the wire as it leaves the bms, or maybe as it enters the powerpole connector (this would be easier for access)).

I am away from tonight until the 29th so wont be able to do these tests until then - sadly.
I will keep you posted - Merry Christmas!

 

[deardancer3]

My multimeter has arrived, so where do I stick the contacts on my meter while the bike is running - to check for a voltage dip? aS it enters the powerpole connector (this would be easier for access)).

 

[gerlewis]

UPDATE:

I have fitted my new 60amp BMS, and it 'SEEMS' fine after 8miles of use. The only thing I have noticed is the orange light come on on the throttle after a mile or so of WOT, and it never used to.
The battery is fully charged too.

Is there a simple way to check for dead cells using a multimeter - or am i likely barking up the wrong tree?

The only other thing to mention is my speed seems a km or 2 slower, but if anything I was expecting faster with the 60amp BMS.

Lastly, anyone know where I can get these red connectors, male and female parts?
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/17/image031w.jpg
Thanks
Ger

 

[lesspedal]

A mile or so on ping 20ah at wot, maybe 30 amp draw =1.5c, The orange light is illuminating from voltage sag, seems normal to me.
Does the green light come back on when releasing throttle or going to a lower gear?

 

[gerlewis]

yes, if I stop, then re-start it goes green. It goes orange after only a few hundred yards thinking about it.

As I say, Ive only done a few journeys, so need to keep a closer eye on things.

 

[deardancer3]

This seems to be more like appropriate behavior of the system.

On the early orange/yellow cyclone throttle light;
this could be indicative of either slightly low battery output, a slightly high impedance connection between battery and motor, or, a little of each. Check your connections and wire gauge for ability to carry 15 amps continous with no IR drop. A measely 2/10 ohm round trip will drop 3 volts at 15 amps, and thats just 360watts into the controller/motor.

My major issue with the 500w cyclone is trying to deliver 1000w (40 amps) peak from 24v. Connections gets worse as vibration, heat, corrosion, and time take their toll. Going to the 36v external controller helps quite a bit. 48v more but peak efficiency speed is much higher making other gearing changes much needed.

I forget exactly where the cyclone goes to yellow/orange, but I vaguely recall around 22v? My 360w cyclone 20ah headway system never gets a yellow light even on unassisted hill climbing. It used to with NIMH, especially as the pack aged.

d
edit: just got my first yellow light today after 20 miles of HARD full throttle riding lots of the time, with pedal assist; then I tuned into the facewind from hell and nailed the throttle in way too high a gear. No gag, just yellow light till I downshifted.

Got home a little later and measured the rested pack at 26.17v before going on the charger. Lets see how many AH's this 20ah pack drinks when the charging is over.


It took 9.8 AH for recharge.

d