New "Lingbei MM28.250 torque sensor mid drive"

[Hillhater]

But we are talking about the motor power/ torque.
The gear ratio has nothing to do with the theoretical torque produced by the motor at a fixed voltage and amperage

So, correct me if I am wrong: both motors use the same electric power and so both should produce the same torque.

Same power yes, but same torque No , because they are designed differently, (winding gauge and turns, + different diameter) and operate in different rpm ranges. 0-4000 rpm for the TS, 0-2750 rpm for the Lb.
The Lb has more motor torque.
Which is why they have different reduction ratios

A simple calculation .. Ref..https://simplemotor.com/calculations/
In its most basic form, assuming no efficiency losses..
Motor Torque = Amps * Volts *60 /rpm*2*3.14
If both motors are operating at 750w , 48v , 16 amps
We see for the TS..16*48*60/4000*2*3.142. = 1.83 NM at the motor, or x38 (redn ratio) = 69 NM at the cranks
And for the Lb. 16*48*60/2750*2*3.142. = 2.67 NM at the motor , or x 23 (redn ratio) = 61 NM at the cranks
So different motors, different gearing ratios, same power , gives very similar torque at the cranks.

 

[casainho]

But we are talking about the motor power/ torque.
The gear ratio has nothing to do with the theoretical torque produced by the motor at a fixed voltage and amperage

So, correct me if I am wrong: both motors use the same electric power and so both should produce the same torque.

Same power yes, but same torque No , because they are designed differently, (winding gauge and turns, + different diameter) and operate in different rpm ranges. 0-4000 rpm for the TS, 0-2750 rpm for the Lb.
The Lb has more motor torque.
Which is why they have different reduction ratios

A simple calculation .. Ref..https://simplemotor.com/calculations/
In its most basic form, assuming no efficiency losses..
Motor Torque = Amps * Volts *60 /rpm*2*3.14
If both motors are operating at 750w , 48v , 16 amps
We see for the TS..16*48*60/4000*2*3.142. = 1.83 NM at the motor, or x38 (redn ratio) = 69 NM at the cranks
And for the Lb. 16*48*60/2750*2*3.142. = 2.67 NM at the motor , or x 23 (redn ratio) = 61 NM at the cranks
So different motors, different gearing ratios, same power , gives very similar torque at the cranks.

So to resume, the power output on crancks for both motors is equal since the power input from the battery is equal: 48V * 16A.
TSDZ2 has a bit higher torque on crancks because has a bit less rotation/cadence RPM on cranks. The inverse for LB motor, a bit less torque on cranks and a bit higher rotation/cadence RPM on cranks.

 

[eyebyesickle]

Update:

New programming may be available Mid August, but that date is even subject to change.

20a seems ok, will report more when able

 

[ScooterMan101]

Has anyone contacted Lingbei , about the problem of where the wires come out of the motor ?

Most/Many Full suspension bicycles now have the curved down tube down near the bottom bracket area of the bicycle frame.

What sticks out to me is where the wires exit the casing could be vulnerable if the motor is turned up to the down tube. Our test bike has one of the funky lower down tubes and so the motor has to hang low which means it has less ground clearance than the TS previously on the bike. The pic below illustrates the motor in about what would be the most it could rotate upwards to the down tube.

unnamed-1.jpg

 

[ScooterMan101]

If Lingbei is reading this thread here are just a few examples of the newer design of full suspension bicycle frames.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/mens-camber-27-5/p/128950?color=239834-128950

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/hightower

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-enduro-27-5-frame/p/128956?color=240144-128956

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/nomad

https://thebikeshoppe.com/product/trek-remedy-29-carbon-frameset-239195-1.htm

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/mountain-bikes/trail-mountain-bikes/full-stache/full-stache-frameset/p/22690/?colorCode=greendark_greenvisibility

https://www.cannondale.com/en/USA/Products/ProductCategory.aspx?nid=6d7fa960-2ae8-46a3-af63-421da3e56ff9

http://www.pivotcycles.com/bike/Trail-429

https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/mojo_hd4/

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-anthem

and many, many more .

 

[ScooterMan101]

Hmm,

I am running 25 + amps at 52 volts ( 14s , 58 volts fully charged ) to get close to the performance I want on my Mac rear hub motor,

If this little motor can work well with a 14s fully charged pack
or a
16s battery pack charged to about 90-92 % at the least 20 amps ,
do keep me posted.

what is the total weight including the crank arms ?

PM me , as I am thinking about a inexpensive mid drive to run until the higher power RC motor mid-drive motors come available.

Update:

New programming may be available Mid August, but that date is even subject to change.

20a seems ok, will report more when able

 

[fantasy2]

Update:

New programming may be available Mid August, but that date is even subject to change.

20a seems ok, will report more when able

New programming as in new firmware or as in programmable by user without opening the motor?
Can you share the 20A firmware? I'd like to flash it in mine.

 

[eyebyesickle]

I need to weigh it, seems just over the weight of the TSDZ2, and just under the BBS02...

The programming is new firmware. Programming is NOT planned to be available to retail user, and will always be sealed inside the motor. Which makes it a pain for me to open each one to program/test. They will NOT be making these available over 17a. Even the 18a units are programmed to 17a... They said they can make the programming cable on the outside, but I don't really care for that solution.

Let me get the clear to share some programming files, I want to keep on the up and up with them, as my associate is planning a bulk order of these, and we want to have good relations with everyone throughout this. I will make the 52v, and the 20a available soon - or just show where to change the values as with the TSDZ2. They will not support any 20a program units under warranty etc etc... as usual in this situation

 

[Hillhater]

Do users really expect to retain warranty support on a modified unit ?
This is a DIY /builders forum, ..warranty expectations are left at the sign in page ?

 

[Kisazul]

what is the total weight including the crank arms ?

I have a 36v 350W version. Weighed the motor with the stock gear and without crank about ~ 4.1 kg. I ride about 50 km on it. But unlike tcdz2 I do not feel the presence of a torque sensor in it, the motor starts to move with simple rotation of the pedals and without load at any level of assistance. The faster the rotation, the faster the motor helps. On sensation it is clone bafang bbs01-02

 

[Drum]

Hi All,
I just had an e-mail from Linda at Lingbei.
Interpreting the less than perfect English, here is what it appears to say:

-Within July there will be new programming to use the torque sensor better. Test samples with the new program may be available earlier;
-A waterproof external plug will be added to allow programming without disassembly, available July 2018;
-Rated voltages available 24V / 36V / 48V / 52V with current limited to 17 - 18A. Current will be adjusted to 20 - 22A in August;
-Hardware upgrade, modified motor core (her word), increased torque, less noise.. done June 2018.

Display: normally supplied with C600 Display. Other displays available: C300S/C500B (USB) /C600 Colour screen C600E- 30C/C800.

Looks as though things are moving in the right direction... might wait until August until all the upgrades are applied.

 

[dojrude]

Sounds promising.

I guess we just wait for the 22A units and assume that all the other changes have been rolled in as well.

It would be good if these companies had a person on the forums responding to comments and providing information on what they're doing.

Thanks for the update.

 

[81forest]

Sounds like good news, thanks for the update.

 

[fantasy2]

I will be testing the motor hardware upgrade tomorrow and share some pictures and thoughts.

 

[fantasy2]

I got the motor today!

I can confirm they changed the magnets and also the PCB that holds the hall sensors for the BLDC motor is upgraded. As I had the whole motor open anyway, I drilled a hole for a small 4 wire programming cable, not big deal. Now it's easy to access from the outside.

Took the opportunity to remove all the original grease on both the nylon gear and metal gear and replaced it with Mobil SHC220 grease. Damn! What a difference. The motor is so smooth and even more silent now. Really enjoyed the ride.

The old grease I had in place seems to have softened like butter when the motor was hot and it was all over the place. This Mobil grease should hold much better and the viscosity is much higher. It's used a lot for bafang motors as well.

If @eyebyesickle can show us where in the code we have to change the current limit, I'd be very happy to test it.

I would be even more happy to understand who is limiting the maximum speed of the bike. Is it the display or controller?


Can anyone who is able check if the bafang 1-in-4 cable works with this controller and c600 display? I want to use a gear sensor, however the brake connector only has 2 pins and the gear sensor needs 3..

 

[dojrude]

Any more updates/photos?

How is the improved cadence/torque sensing working?

 

[eyebyesickle]

Working at 59v
[youtube]w87F8kA8oRU[/youtube]

View attachment 2




So, as far as the current... I need to do some testing. Half of these displays limit the current in different modes.

Some displays have eco/normal/power settings integrated with the numeric assist levels (the eco changes to normal which changes to power automatically as you cycle up the assist level)

Some displays have eco/normal/power modes completely independent from the assist levels... The manual states for a couple that the current is limited by the display to 15a, and the highest amp setting in any of the diplays is 18a, but not all displays have an amp setting either.

Makes me think about the VLCD-5 TSDZ2 display, where there is an amp power setting in the menu that doesnt do anything... or maybe it does, and the function is that it limits the output to that as a max... (but if the motor wont put out that much, it wont raise it, if that makes sense)

Anyway I did full testing on 4 displays (i didn't even try the cheapest one) and took notes etc... Definitely some questions that only RIDE/testing will answer (not bench testing) and alot of discrepancies from the manual. Also some displays have no manual. A couple of them have USB ports build into the external button panel which is nice.

So, all in all... I need to do more testing with this. I also need to ask them about if LIGHT cables will be an option...

More later just wanted to feed some life into this thread and finally got to do a little tinkering...

 

[AWD]

Testing, not bench, my favorite part. Thanks for the update and I haven't been following lately but have you been able to make the TA work? I like the power of the LB01 and it's overall design compared to the TS but without decent TA it is dead to me no matter what kind of power it makes over the TS.

 

[fantasy2]

They have not released an update yet unfortunately.
I have a programming cable and modified motor ready for testing as soon as it is released.

For the C600 display, I discovered that setting the speed limit has not influence on the maximum support limit. If I set it to 25km/hr it still supports till 40km/hr. They're investigating the issue.

I replaced the grease with a higher viscosity one and the motor runs very smooth. Did 600+ km so far and still going strong. The motor doesn't feel very hot when I drive it on max support so I wonder if we can run in on a higher current.

 

[81forest]

The updates are very appreciated. Really looking forward to more testing, thanks for sharing the details

 

[Kisazul]

Testing, not bench, my favorite part. Thanks for the update and I haven't been following lately but have you been able to make the TA work? I like the power of the LB01 and it's overall design compared to the TS but without decent TA it is dead to me no matter what kind of power it makes over the TS.

+1

so far there is no evidence that this drive has torque on the pedals. only photos of wires going deep into bb. and without a torque sensor it's just a clone of bbs01 ((

 

[AWD]

Testing, not bench, my favorite part. Thanks for the update and I haven't been following lately but have you been able to make the TA work? I like the power of the LB01 and it's overall design compared to the TS but without decent TA it is dead to me no matter what kind of power it makes over the TS.

+1

so far there is no evidence that this drive has torque on the pedals. only photos of wires going deep into bb. and without a torque sensor it's just a clone of bbs01 ((

I have ridden a bike with an LB01 on it and it does have torque assist as it reacts very differently than conventional cadence assist and there is no exterior sensor like the BBS01 rather it is inside the motor. However it is not like most of the TA systems, specifically the TSDZ2 one that I use, in that while it applies power through the pressure of the cranks it is linear and doesn't ramp up the more pressure you put on the pedals. By moving up through the levels it will apply more power per assist level but still remains linear.

So I do agree that this motor is modeled heavily after the BBS01, as it was purportely designed by former Bafang engineers this makes some sense, but they intended the motor to have TA and just missed the marque a bit but word is that they are trying to refine it already.

 

[ScooterMan101]

I went to my local Auto Parts Store to find this Mobil SHC220 grease , but all they had was a wheel bearing /suspension grease with NLGi GC-LB on the label.
( I want to change the grease in my hub motors some day and thinking what is working good for these class of mid-drives should work on a hub just as well ? )
I called Mobil today and asked where I could get the SHC220 and they said that electric motors usually take a SHC100 ( a lower Base Oil Viscosity than the 220 ) They are both full Synthetic. Mobil said that the 100 has less friction, which is good for efficiency .
So are you experiencing better results with a higher base oil viscosity , or was that just the grease you had lying around for other projects ?

Does anyone know that is put in hub and these mid-drive motors at the factories in China ?

Are other people here experiencing better results with Higher Base Oil Viscosity on planetary gear systems as well ?

I got the motor today!


Took the opportunity to remove all the original grease on both the nylon gear and metal gear and replaced it with Mobil SHC220 grease. Damn! What a difference. The motor is so smooth and even more silent now. Really enjoyed the ride.

The old grease I had in place seems to have softened like butter when the motor was hot and it was all over the place. This Mobil grease should hold much better and the viscosity is much higher. It's used a lot for bafang motors as well.

 

[fantasy2]

Correct. SHC220 is what I could get. SHC100 is fine too and used in many bafang motors.
I haven't noticed any efficiency issues. But it runs better than with the original grease(I replaced the motor so had to re-grease everything).

 

[ScooterMan101]

Until we get more light weight RC motor mid drives available, this motor might work for short term, ( Once it is shipped with the ability to use a 52 volt ( 14s ) battery pack, and 22 amps continuous )
However
it has a serious weight problem.

Those of you who have bought one, what do you see on it that can be made lighter ?
even
If it has to be taken apart and a few parts taken to a machine shop to shave off or make aluminium parts, what parts do you see on it for a weight reduction ?