New member, just purchased hub kit from EVTech

[knoxie]

I guess there's people using Nickel chemistry and enjoying it? I don't get it - my F cell packs are from batteryspace. I monitor the cells and there's nothing wrong with them except that they're nickel which for my stuff behaves like I already stated.

40amps? Ain't that cute, did they put the 14ga wire leads on it too?

With an ESR750 you can expect at least 100-200 amp demand from the controller on startup. Lead or A123 lithium are the only cells I've found that can provide that.

I'll repeat one more time - In my experience, nickel packs didn't save enough weight compared to SLA to make them worth my time/money. Especially, when they behave the way they do for even short periods of storage time, recharge difficulties, etc. Knowing what I know now, I would have never bought them in the 1st place...

Just because you have had a bad experience with NIMH doesn't mean others havent? you have just been unlucky. I have been in this game a long time to know all I need to know about batteries and I have tried all makes of lead lipo and nimh and in my experience NIMH is a fantastic upgrade from soggy old lead acid.

You have a goped esr750 and you are telling me this controller can pull 200A? you must have a different scooter than everyone else I know, if your scooter is pulling 200A on start up you must have a faulty controller or something, its a 750W motor?????????

Lead acid are ok for scooters with short range I agree as they do take deep discharge well for a short time, but thats just it a short time! My NIMH packs still pump out 30A even after they have been drained down to 80% dod, you can take the piss out of me all you like my friend but I have been around and doing this for a long time, just because you shit out with NIMH dont pass that on like its some sort of biblical truth to others, there are more people on here with good things to say about NIMH than bad, lead are good for high amps very heavy short range and short cycle use thats it, if they were so great Lotus would be using them in the Tesla surely?

Good for scoots for 5 miles and then its door stops and PSUs as far as I am concerned, and 40A x 48V is more than enough for people with power assist so don't take the piss.

Knoxie

 

[Herr Aflaschcindernose]

This is a great thread. I love the real-world give and take of the entire thing. I don't believe there's any perfect battery solution either, otherwise it still wouldn't be a hot topic of debate.
Perhaps halve SLA's weight and suddenly it's back in flavor. To be continued....

Jaa, been don.
You vant to know why? OK I tell you anyvay:


Manfreed Kobblesonne dit dis jeers ago by whipping
der "sugar uff lead" (ist real form uff lead, no yoke)
mit ammoniated zurplus butter, back kin der year uff whven
mad cows came out. Dis maked von vera lightveight lead paste
fur platez uff schtill-zecret vorm. In anglish he calt hiss battery,
a very licht battery he calt it der Lead Acid Battery. Only but because
it vas maite from lesss lead whipped of der sweet lead and hat real butter do schtickum der paste;
it worked batly. Dey all died. Zo it iss calt Kobblestone's lEAD acID BATTERY.
Zounds liek Cherman directive, "eat it buttery". Manfreed vas like dat.

He solt der rites ladder on to Breakstone, der real buttery pipple.

Der Breakstone kilt der conzept den to prrrrevent der competition
mit der sausages battary kartelz.

Result No more lesser wait leadt bittery.
Der endt.

htvh,

H A

 

[giveahoot]

There are many advantages and drawbacks to consider with current battery technologies: lead, lithium, nickel. Just environmentally speaking, lithium is the least toxic, but also has the shortest shelf-life. Especially an environmentally friendly e-biker, who eschews the automobile, might still find toxicity the biggest factor. Although, lead batteries are also very easily recycled, and world supplies continue to be more abundant and cheaper than either lithium or nickel. While lithium is also the lightest, it's also can be (by far) the most reactive, other than lithium-ion etc. etc.

If I were in the market for a battery most fitting my needs today, I guess that paying a higher premium for the EV Tech 36v 15ah Li-po seems fairly reasonable. Obviously bringing the price of lithium-ion greatly down in price makes that a no-brainer. But even the oldest designs can be improved upon, including 150 year old lead-acid batteries.

And if I'm not willing to pay such a high premium, then a carbon/graphite-based lead acid battery might be the ticket. Theoretically, current lead-acid have the capability to provide 170-200 Whr/kg. Yet, that power has yet to be realized, and lead still makes the best vehicle starters based on price and performance. However, so far, on paper, Caterpiller's Firefly battery seems very promising for light-weight electric vehicles, based on (yes) weight, price, and performance.

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=89

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

...EV Tech 36v 15ah 10lb pack $750 has been proven for over a year on a number of ebikes. The US military bought 50 of them after severe testing.

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/battery-chargers-c-36.html

Hi Al, how can I hear from actual users of their pack?
This must be the lithium pack---I would like to hear independent reports,
and wonder too what was the "severe testing" and such, that the US military then bought fifty packs from them for use in what application? needing 36V? That Halliburton wouldn't get the contract for, for a million bucks instead (eh!)

You know--I am getting hard of credibility after my recent unfortunate abortive BatterySpace pack purchase.

I sort of want to know what's inside any black box I might buy.

I can ask EV tech--and will.
Better first I hear from actual users.
There must be some reviews somewhere.


Can I draw 15Ah from their pack?
If, for instance, the BMS cuts it off at 10 or 11Ah, then, hey:
to my mind, that's a 10 or 11Ah pack, and should be sold as such.

Thanks for bearing with me---thanks for your recommendation.
I think they must be really good folks there at EV tech.
I think the same way about the BS people---I think they all mean well.

tiredly,
r.

The EVTech pack is the single most preferred aftermarket pack by Tidalforce owners (including Numbuzz). The TFF admin has been using a pair of these almost daily for close to a year now, so ask away at the TF forum & they'll be eager to help out.

Pieceing together all the disparate threads, IINM, the EVTech lipo known as Point1 are the same ones that TeamHybrid sells in the UK & that knoxie has posted pictures of here, but best confirm with him.

 

[xyster]

... lithium is the least toxic, but also has the shortest shelf-life. ...
If I were in the market for a battery most fitting my needs today, I guess that paying a higher premium for the EV Tech 36v 15ah Li-po seems fairly reasonable. Obviously bringing the price of lithium-ion greatly down in price makes that a no-brainer. But even the oldest designs can be improved upon, including 150 year old lead-acid batteries.

Giveahoot: don't forget to factor in cycle life. Lithium does have the shortest shelf life (5 years to 50% capacity loss if treated kindly), but it also has a much longer cycle life than lead. At 300 full charge cycles to 80% depletion, lead is just about dead, but lithium still has 80% of it's capacity left. I did the math awhile back: if you ride more than twice a week for five years, cheap lithium-ion is more cost effective than lead on a per-capacity basis (not sure about lithium polymer but that's easy enough to calculate).

And even if capacity isn't considered, my 300 cell, 33ah DIY lithium ion pack was cheaper over five years than replacing 6, 12ah lead batteries annually (not to mention 24 lbs lighter!).

(6) 12ah lead batteries @ 33$/per replaced every year for five years = $990 -- a little more than 300 of my lithium 18650s cost .

typical lead prices
http://www.electricrider.com/batteries/index.htm

Unfortunately, lithium prices have gone up a little since then. All-battery no longer sells my $3 18650s last I checked. But anyway, at least the price point is still very competitive with lead if you ride your bike often...

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Unfortunately, lithium prices have gone up a little since then. All-battery no longer sells my $3 18650s last I checked. But anyway, at least the price point is still very competitive with lead if you ride your bike often...

yep, I expect that with time we're gonna see all the battery prices mysteriously level off to the the same $/mile cost.

 

[Lowell]

Unfortunately, lithium prices have gone up a little since then. All-battery no longer sells my $3 18650s last I checked. But anyway, at least the price point is still very competitive with lead if you ride your bike often...

yep, I expect that with time we're gonna see all the battery prices mysteriously level off to the the same $/mile cost.

Why would they do that? Supply and demand will dictate the prices of common batteries as there are enough manufacturers around the world.

 

[Nimbuzz]

Reid, As for my EV Tech/Point One 36v lipo pack. I've been running it on my tidalforce M750 for a year now. I commute over a small mountain 15 miles one way. I use the TF front hub and the Point one -- plugging one in and disconnecting the other as I reach different stages of the climb and descent. The packs get used hard as I am usually going as fast as I can motor and peddle up or downhill. I haven't installed my Drain Brain yet so I can't give you tech data. Larry (deerfencer) and Steve Mooring on the TF google forum are others that use these packs though Larry has two in parallel and Steve has a 48v 20ah version. Others including Knoxie have my same pack.

My pack has performed like clockwork for a year. I love this pack, use it hard and don't know of anyother comprable pack -- wish I did! Knoxie has pics of the insides of one that he took apart -- not easy in a sealed aluminum box. The new version has the BMS accessible in a separate compartment.

Aparently the US Army wanted packs for robots and tested the dailights out of one, including discharging it in an oven at 350 degrees -- or something like that. This story is from Doug Canfield whom I have dealt with and talked with a lot. I have no reason to question the veracity of his claims as all my dealings and discussions with Doug have been on the up and up for over a year.

Let me klnow if I can be of any more help.
Al

 

[Reid Welch]

Thank you Al, that's a great help.

To hear a compliment like that from a real-life user counts the most of all.

I would like to learn whether the packs deliver 15Ah.
I can ask the firm this question directly.

 

[xyster]

I would like to learn whether the packs deliver 15Ah.

I recall Knoxie saying somewhere here they deliver like 10-12 amp-hours. They cost $750 in the States:
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/lithium-polymer-battery-volt15-hour-p-165.html

 

[esr750]

In reply to those that attempt to attack my information - ESR750 is a 750W motor but you obviously have no idea how motors are rated and the startup current Goped provided in their design.

48Vdc? Not my ESR750. Once again, someone with no idea talking from emotion cause somebody disagrees with their opinion?

There are published test results of ESR750 pulling 195 amps @ 24Vdc dead-stall startup current. Yep, about 4-5HP at startup. Not for long of course but if you know how electric motors are rated you'd understand why my estimate figures are legit.

While 200 amps is the absolute max I think the ESR controller can ever deliver I honestly believe and have seen it myself that it commonly pulls close to 100 amps in everyday use. That's why I had a big laugh when the batteryspace NiMh packs I purchased came with 14ga leads, LOL...

Do some of these peeps here work for batteryspace? Maybe that explains why some don't like me to tell it like it is? Hmm...

Whatever, I'm not dreaming stuff up, I use this junk practically every day for real world commuting. Hell, I can just as easily keep my findings and opinion to myself - ??? Okay, fine with me, good luck...

 

[Ypedal]

wow.. someone piss you off on your way to work or something ? lol.. yikes..


200 amps is quite unusual for most on this forum.. your application is unique in this regard.. Most of the BS packs are aimed at the 20 to 40 amp controllers out there.. at best.

For 200 amp peaks you go with high-end lithium or SLA..

For my own personal use.. NIMH and NIcad are just fine.. i use a 20 amp controller.

 

[knightmb]

I guess there's people using Nickel chemistry and enjoying it? I don't get it - my F cell packs are from batteryspace. I monitor the cells and there's nothing wrong with them except that they're nickel which for my stuff behaves like I already stated.

40amps? Ain't that cute, did they put the 14ga wire leads on it too?

Last I remember, 14 ga wire can handle 40 amp max load (at 120 volts mind you) and 55 amp peak. So right off the bat, the wire can handle 4,800 watts of power.

So if you are selling packs that are rated at 40 amp max, why put wire on it that can handle more than it's sold as? There is more to these pack designs than just "put a bunch of batteries together and hope for the best". I've tested the packs at 60 amp (very short time mind you) and the wires took it just fine.

Ever considered maybe they use that exact wire size as a safety? Better a wire burn in half than an entire battery pack go nuclear.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

In reply to those that attempt to attack my information - ESR750 is a 750W motor but you obviously have no idea how motors are rated and the startup current Goped provided in their design.

48Vdc? Not my ESR750. Once again, someone with no idea talking from emotion cause somebody disagrees with their opinion?

There are published test results of ESR750 pulling 195 amps @ 24Vdc dead-stall startup current. Yep, about 4-5HP at startup. Not for long of course but if you know how electric motors are rated you'd understand why my estimate figures are legit.

While 200 amps is the absolute max I think the ESR controller can ever deliver I honestly believe and have seen it myself that it commonly pulls close to 100 amps in everyday use. That's why I had a big laugh when the batteryspace NiMh packs I purchased came with 14ga leads, LOL...

Do some of these peeps here work for batteryspace? Maybe that explains why some don't like me to tell it like it is? Hmm...

Whatever, I'm not dreaming stuff up, I use this junk practically every day for real world commuting. Hell, I can just as easily keep my findings and opinion to myself - ??? Okay, fine with me, good luck...

If your opinion of Nimh is based on BSpace packs, then that's yer problem right there. Bob McRee has often stated that he wouldn't recommend their packs but the cells from them are fine. Even their packs some people have had good use out of them, so that speaks to the issue that their QC is spotty is all.

I will back you up that nimh self-discharge frightfully quick. If it weren't so then Sanyo wouldn't be selling special formulation low loss Eneloop brand. If those could be scaled up for high discharge rates, then other than weight, would be the best all around choice for ebikes. At least regular nimh don't self discharge to the point of going permanently dead the way SLA sulphate after leaving them sit over winter in my cordless B&D lawnmower.

 

[Matt Gruber]

SLA's store best cold.
3 in my fridge for 1 year and they don't discharge.

dead mower had drained sla's, or likely left connected w/ small drain

 

[xyster]

There are published test results of ESR750 pulling 195 amps @ 24Vdc dead-stall startup current. Yep, about 4-5HP at startup.

Where? After reading this, I looked for info about the stock goped controllers because I'm interested in high amp replacements for my 30amp Stealth scooter. The controller's 24V voltage rating was the only spec I could find.
http://www.goped.com/products/esr750/

A 200amp, 24volt controller sounds very unlikely as that would violate the 750W-1000W scooter power limitations law around the country, and the goped would have to be rebadged as a moped, with the attendant DOT accessories and street-legal certification.

 

[Lowell]

Me thinks someone has been sniffing too much tire smoke... :lol:

 

[Matt Gruber]

xy
please quote law!
never saw any that limited starting power. only continuous

 

[Nimbuzz]

Tony asked about a normal 37v 8 ah pack for a regular ebike not 200 amps...

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

SLA's store best cold.
3 in my fridge for 1 year and they don't discharge.

dead mower had drained sla's, or likely left connected w/ small drain

My fridge is pretty full up as it is. Actually two fridges & a freezer. Don't think I could fit a lawnmower in there as well. Maybe if I removed the ice trays.

So saari, but you kinda set that one up for me & couldn't resist takin a swing. :lol:

Even so, in the event a battery is left sitting discharged, which is preferable? Finding it irrevocably damaged as with SLA sulphation or having to run a few charge/discharge exercycles as with nimh? Especially with careless Joe Average Consumer.

 

[xyster]

xy
please quote law!
never saw any that limited starting power. only continuous

The 1200W Forsen scooter is DOT certified, presumably because it had to be in order to sell it as such.
http://www.topscooterstores.com/product_info.php?products_id=389

&

Here's a sampling of such wording from my neck of the woods:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/vehicle/pocketbike_factsheet.shtml

"A motor-assisted scooter:

* is designed to be operated on the ground with not more than three wheels;
* has handlebars and a foot support or seat;
* can be propelled by human or motor;
* has a motor capable of propelling it no faster than 24 miles per hour on a level road; and
* has a motor no bigger than 35 cubic centimeters or, if electric, has a power output of no more than 1,000 watts."

http://www.electric-bikes.com/legal-wa.html
RCW 46.04.169
Electric-assisted bicycle.

""Electric-assisted bicycle" means a bicycle with two or three wheels, a saddle, fully operative pedals for human propulsion, and an electric motor. The electric-assisted bicycle's electric motor must have a power output of no more than one thousand watts, be incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than twenty miles per hour on level ground, and be incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used to propel the device beyond twenty miles per hour."

 

[knoxie]

Yo

He must think I am an idiot or something? sure any motor can effectively offer up an immensely high circuit for fat amps, I know this and I know just how these perms work as well, there is no such evidence that the goped draws 200A and 100A nominal, this just is not true and has nothing to do with emotion at all.

I do not work for batteryspace or anyone else for that matter, I have no problem with you making posts on here but don't make shit up, of course I am going to jump when you type things that are not true.

Short lengths of wire such as 14ga can briefly carry large currents, RC pack leads can drop 100-200A and you have seen the gauge on them.

Like I said you stick with Lead Acid if they are so great, but don't come on here and try to tell people they are no good and we should all still be using lead.

I often find people that can not afford decent batteries stand behind the ones they can afford, Like i said Lead for little scoots and short range is fine, you are posting to a group that is primarily full of power assist users where 200A starts car engines as far as we are all concerned.

Richard Fechter runs a modified scooter on here, however I know if I shipped him some high capacity NIMH or LIpo packs to try he would jump at the chance.

As far as I can tell the batteryspace packs on the whole are pretty good, they have work to do with their lipo packs and some of their early NIMH packs were a little dubious but they seem to have it sorted now, I dont know coz I dont work for them.

My NIMH packs came for electrodrive.

Knoxie

 

[Matt Gruber]

sell careless joe the most expensive. i'm happy to spend your money.
now me,
i spend $20 -$30 a year to bring home all my groceries w/sla

xy,
nothing in those laws says it can't spike up for a millisecond.

 

[xyster]

xy,
nothing in those laws says it can't spike up for a millisecond.

True. But try arguing that with the judge, who, I think will probably read "no more than 1000 watts" to mean "no more than 1000 watts at any time", not "no more than 1000 watts except for a millisecond when 1 billion watts is A-OK."
You know, it's one of those nebulous but often necessary "spirit of the law" type judgment calls...Reading it otherwise would open up a boundless field of infinite power possibilities: 1 millisecond 100kw, next millisecond 0...etc...which of course drivers of large gassers, like lawmakers, have always enjoyed.

 

[Matt Gruber]

judges just want to know
HOW FAST?

FWIW the mx500 puts out over the limit FROM A START to 5-10 mph
NOT ILLEGAL
only goes 17 stock

i don't think his claims sound dubious.

just use a DVM with PEAK HOLD. will surprise lots of us