New propane goped really green as electric?

[maydaverave]

http://www.goped.com/Products/proped/default.asp

 

[vanilla ice]

Eh, who cares which is greener. They are both green. They are both neato. They are both fun.

 

[swbluto]

Considering the sources of most electricity in the U.S., it seems like it actually might be greener than electric in many areas.

Although, let's consider this. Most energy in the United States is generated from petroleum and its derivatives. The average cost of electricity is somewhere around 10 cents per kWh. Considering the efficiency of most systems is 60%, it seems like it takes 5 kWh to put out 3 kWh which is about the amount of extractable energy in a gallon of gas which I think is fairly similar to the cost of propane (Or probably cheaper given how vastly more common gasoline is used). 5 kWh = 50 cents, 1 gallon of gas = $2.70. So, the running cost pollution of the propane one is undoubtedly greater. But, electrics also have to have their battery produced which undoubtedly generates some significant pollution. It's hard for me to quantify, though...

 

[swbluto]

Now, if you consider things as ideal... as in, most energy needed to produce the battery and the energy used to charge the battery came from non-polluting sources, propane is definitely not as green as electric. So, ideally, propane is not as green. But for the United States and most of the world in its current form, practically, it is pretty close in green-ness as electric.

 

[voicecoils]

I like to think of the most optimistic situation:

With an EV you can charge with renewable energy sources such as from wind turbines. They have extremely low lifecycle GHG emissions and zero over their 20+ year operating phase. If you don't have your own wind farm you can buy green power from your utility to charge your vehicle.

Any ICE vehicle will at least cause local air pollution, and unless it is running a biofuel it's also exhausting a finite resource.

[edited for spelling and clarity]

 

[johnrobholmes]

So how much is the 16 ounce propane tank that gets you 1 hour of ride time?

 

[swbluto]

So how much is the 16 ounce propane tank that gets you 1 hour of ride time?

I don't know, but I don't think it'd be economical to continuously buy 16 ounce propane tanks. The best price that I could find on refills was $120/100lbs = $1.20 / 20 miles = .06/mile - I calculated LiFePO4 to have a longterm cost of 6 cents/per mile until 85% DOD if used on a regular basis. Note, I didn't look too extensively.

 

[jag]

So how much is the 16 ounce propane tank that gets you 1 hour of ride time?

Having a single use disposable propane cylinder is clearly flawed for anything claiming to be Green. It is also several times more expensive for the user to buy these cylinders than filling up at a propane station.

There are small reusable propane cylinders (e.g. for use in small boats where a 20lb would be unpractical). If changing to such a reusable cylinder one can fillup at propane stations. However, many charge a minimum fee, often about $5, regardless of quantity, so it is still not economic.

IMHO, electric would have been a much better choice. Propane is an excellent alternative for cars in areas where propane filling stations are plentiful, but for a small scooter the ability to just charge at home outweighs the relatively modest cost of a good battery.

 

[TylerDurden]

Propane is cheap. You can refill the small cylinders from a BBQ tank with a $20 adapter:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45989


FWIW, the motor is avail as a weedwacker for ~$200USD.

It will make a nice hybrid. 8)

 

[swbluto]

Propane is cheap. You can refill the small cylinders from a BBQ tank with a $20 adapter:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45989


FWIW, the motor is avail as a weedwacker for ~$200USD.

It will make a nice hybrid. 8)

Ohhhhh, very interesting. I can definitely see hybrid possibilities. I wonder what kind of propane engines are commercially available? It might be a fairly economic way to cruise for long periods, especially at higher speeds.

 

[vanilla ice]

Its not really as simple to refill those as you might think.

Chill cylinder in freezer.
Wait for it to get cold.
Flip bbq tank upside down on table.
Attach tank to cylinder hanging off the edge of the table.
Wait for liquid to slowly move in to the cylinder.
Get impatient after 15 minutes and pull it off.
Presto! 1/3 filled propane cylinder!
When you could have saved your time and bought a full one for $3!! Yay!
Or something like this..

When you go to buy liquid nitrous they have a pump which makes things quick. Without a pump transferring liquid from one cylinder to another is a PITA. Underfilled? Overfilled? How do you tell? Only way is to keep checking periodically with a scale.

 

[Sheriff Jon]

So how much is the 16 ounce propane tank that gets you 1 hour of ride time?

Having a single use disposable propane cylinder is clearly flawed for anything claiming to be Green. It is also several times more expensive for the user to buy these cylinders than filling up at a propane station.

There are small reusable propane cylinders (e.g. for use in small boats where a 20lb would be unpractical). If changing to such a reusable cylinder one can fillup at propane stations. However, many charge a minimum fee, often about $5, regardless of quantity, so it is still not economic.

IMHO, electric would have been a much better choice. Propane is an excellent alternative for cars in areas where propane filling stations are plentiful, but for a small scooter the ability to just charge at home outweighs the relatively modest cost of a good battery.

Why such a Negative Nancy?

As pointed out above, these one time use cylinders actually ARE refilable at home, making them more economical and GREENER than other ICE powered devices, and I am sure if the idea takes off newer tanks and refilling methods will become available. The relativly limited range of 10 miles per cylinder may turn some folks off at first, and Propane power may not be everybodys cup of tea. But IMO this is a step in the right direction, as opposed to being...."clearly flawed"

And FTR....... :wink: GoPed HAS been making Electric scooters for some time now. They offer several SLA models, as well as 3 different Li-Ion models. I have the 32 AH 4 Li-Ion battery Hoverboard (suspended), and I have a range of 16+ miles at a speed of 21-23 MPH in Turbo mode, or a range of 26+ miles at a speed of 16MPH in Econo mode 8)

 

[vanilla ice]

I don't get the negativity either, I guess its more of the same ICE haterade again. Much like the bike snobbery, evil gaze for your fellow light vehicle 2wheel rider and a happy smile for your neighbor who commutes alone 50 miles a day in his 3ton beast.. Ya that makes a lot of sense guy! Way to encourage use of these things.. :thumbsup: its no wonder nobody rides them. Any way you cut it this thing is very efficient and clean.

And you *can* do refills if you like, as outlined above. Just know that its not a quick thing where you will pop em on and off and refill a twelve pack in 3 minutes.. I fear people have this impression from the ads for those couplers. It is doable however if you are persistent and patient.

 

[swbluto]

I found a 13 HP Kawasaki propane engine. It only costs a cool 1200-1300 dollars.

http://www.parts-ol.com/liteshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16141


It seems like it's pretty equivalent in cost to suitable electric motors plus the required controller.

 

[jag]

As pointed out above, these one time use cylinders actually ARE refilable at home, making them more economical and GREENER than other ICE powered devices, and I am sure if the idea takes off newer tanks and refilling methods will become available.

I know you can refill the little 1lb tanks. However of all the millions of these that are used each year, how many are refilled? 0.1%? 0.01%? While ES type people would consider refilling at home, I bet the general public buying these will just toss them when empty.

I agree that if refillable tanks are approved and economical to refill it would be good. I suspect that would take some automatic refill station, as gas stations would likely keep their common $5 min charge if manual work is involved.

 

[Sheriff Jon]

As pointed out above, these one time use cylinders actually ARE refilable at home, making them more economical and GREENER than other ICE powered devices, and I am sure if the idea takes off newer tanks and refilling methods will become available.

I know you can refill the little 1lb tanks. However of all the millions of these that are used each year, how many are refilled? 0.1%? 0.01%? While ES type people would consider refilling at home, I bet the general public buying these will just toss them when empty.

I agree that if refillable tanks are approved and economical to refill it would be good. I suspect that would take some automatic refill station, as gas stations would likely keep their common $5 min charge if manual work is involved.

I can understand your skeptism, and as stated, these Propane powered scooters are not going to be everyones cup of tea. I have been into electric scooters for 2 1/2 years, but I have been riding stand-up Gas scoters for 10 years now, and they all do between 30-45 MPH and have a much greater range of nearly 40 miles as they have two (easily refilable) fuel tanks.

Although a new project may be intriguing :wink: to be honest the prospect of another ICE scooter that only goes 20 MPH tops, for only 10 miles per throwaway tank is not super appealing even to me, a true enthusiast. GoPed is merely using the available LEHR powerplant on their existing scooter platform(s) But IMO it is a step in the right direction and hopefully the motors will improve as will the tanks and refilling methods.

 

[jag]

I wonder what kind of propane engines are commercially available? It might be a fairly economic way to cruise for long periods, especially at higher speeds.

There are conversion kits to change regular gas engines to propane. It was very popular 5-10 years ago in Alberta. Propane was 20c/litre, while gas was about 50c/litre at that time. Now pricing is more equal so less economic incentive.

Propane tends to give less nasty exhaust in a regular gas engine, so there is an environmental advantage.

 

[monster]

its not posible to effectivly refill with out a compressor. otherwise its like trying to charge one battery from another. the propane tanks all get delivered buy big trucks which is not every efficient considdering their size.

 

[dogman dan]

As a balloon pilot, I do lots of refilling propane containers. There are do's and don'ts to the procedure that keep you from killng yourself fueling the balloon. It's not as simple pimple as gasing the car.

Refilling the small disposable cylinders yourself is possible, but illegal in the US. I cannot stress enough how dangerous it is for untrained people to fool with it. The small cylinders lack several safetey features present on your 5 gallon tank that prevent overfilling.

Most people will end up underfilling the small cylinder, but there is a trick for getting it full that I won't post here. The issue is you won't know when to stop filling the cylinder. If an overfilled cylinder gets warm, kabooooom.

I totally agree that a 4 stroke propane engine is much greener than a stinking two stroke. A 2 stroke weedwhacker may very well put out more air pollution per minuite of use than two modern cars. A 4 stroke propane one would be somewhat greener. But how green can tossing all those cylinders be? To be a green device, it needs to be possible to take the empties to a facilty that would safely refill them to the proper level.

 

[liveforphysics]

Its not really as simple to refill those as you might think.

Chill cylinder in freezer.
Wait for it to get cold.
Flip bbq tank upside down on table.
Attach tank to cylinder hanging off the edge of the table.
Wait for liquid to slowly move in to the cylinder.
Get impatient after 15 minutes and pull it off.
Presto! 1/3 filled propane cylinder!
When you could have saved your time and bought a full one for $3!! Yay!
Or something like this..

When you go to buy liquid nitrous they have a pump which makes things quick. Without a pump transferring liquid from one cylinder to another is a PITA. Underfilled? Overfilled? How do you tell? Only way is to keep checking periodically with a scale.

I fill my 10lbs Nitrous bottles with 10.5-11lbs ( slightly over filled) in about 5 minutes with no transfer pump. The trick is to make sure the bottle to be filled is completely empty. Leave it in the freezer for 2 hrs, and keep the mother tank cuddled up next to the hot water heater in your house, and sitting on something to get it right up to the ceiling. Take the empty bottle out, and lay it on it's side on your scale. Connect the -4AN line, crack the mother tank valve, crack the empty tank valve, and shut the valves when you see the bottle is ~10lbs heavier. Every weekend I fill up a few bottles, and it's not any sort of inconvience at all. I throw them in the freezer when they run-out, so I always have an empty cold bottle waiting, then when I want to fill, just connect it, make 1 post on endless sphere, close the valves, unthread 1 -4AN line, and it's done. if you don't have a scale, you shouldnt' even be trying. Too dangerous to not leave adquate head room in the bottle by over filling.

 

[northernmike]

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[northernmike]

In December 2007, environmental marketing firm TerraChoice gained national press coverage for releasing a study called "The Six Sins of Greenwashing" which found that more than 99% of 1,018 common consumer products randomly surveyed for the study were guilty of greenwashing. A total of 1,753 environmental claims made, with some products having more than one, and out of the 1,018 studied only one was found not guilty of making a false or misleading green marketing claim. According to the study, the six sins of greenwashing are:[12][13]

* Sin of the Hidden Trade-Off: e.g. “Energy-efficient” electronics that contain hazardous materials. 998 products and 57% of all environmental claims committed this Sin.

* Sin of No Proof: e.g. Shampoos claiming to be “certified organic,” but with no verifiable certification. 454 products and 26% of environmental claims committed this Sin.

* Sin of Vagueness: e.g. Products claiming to be 100% natural when many naturally-occurring substances are hazardous, like arsenic and formaldehyde (see appeal to nature). Seen in 196 products or 11% of environmental claims.

* Sin of Irrelevance: e.g. Products claiming to be CFC-free, even though CFCs were banned 20 years ago. This Sin was seen in 78 products and 4% of environmental claims.

* Sin of Fibbing: e.g. Products falsely claiming to be certified by an internationally recognized environmental standard like EcoLogo, Energy Star or Green Seal. Found in 10 products or less than 1% of environmental claims.

* Sin of Lesser of Two Evils: e.g. Organic cigarettes or “environmentally friendly” pesticides, This occurred in 17 products or 1% of environmental claims.

 

[vanilla ice]

Take the empty bottle out, and lay it on it's side on your scale.

Right, I'm with you. I use this method also for filling skinny paintball cylinders from my 20lbs. nitrous tank. I'm ok with a half or 3/4, that way I don't have to worry about blowing out a relief valve. Thing is, the advertisements for the rigid propane coupler don't mention that any of this is necessary. I felt that it needed to be pointed out here, people see it and think "wow I can safely refill my big pile of empties in minutes, and at room temp." And they are dead wrong. There is no way to put the small cylinders on a scale with the rigid coupler. What you really need is a flexible line and a shut off valve near the end of it. Otherwise like you guys say there is a danger because there is no way to weigh it.

I noticed the disposable cylinders do have a relief valve, but I assume its only functions correctly with gaseous propane (?) and not liquid. Also, for those who want to try this scale method for propane refills, don't forget the valve at the end of your flexible AN line. Otherwise the liquid propane in the transfer line.. well, you will spew propane everywhere each time you disconnect a cylinder.. fun.

I agree that without the refill part, this is not nearly as green. It sucks that most buyers won't be able or willing to go through all this. It should be made easier..

 

[Sheriff Jon]

I just read over on the GoPed board that the original estimate of having a 10 mile range was way off due to a leaking fuel line on the prototype.

It turns out our original range testing was way off due to a leaking prototype fuel line. We recieved the new standard fuel line and did another test which proved we get twice the range as we thought. Well over 20 miles and more than one hour continuos operation at wide open throttle with a 165 lb rider and at 4500 ft altitude.

This still may not be GREEN enough for some (especially in here) but with a range of "well over 20 miles at full throttle" on a single tank this ProPed just got a whole lot more practical to consider as a viable form of alternate personal transportation 8)

 

[dogman dan]

Do bear in mind that while most flamable gasses are lighter than air, propane is heavier than air. So while you are out in the garage filling your little tanks, you are standing in a pool of combustible vapor. If your gas hot water heater is in the garage, the pilot light will be down in the vapors.

Ok, I'm being strident about this, but mabye that 8 days in the hospital getting the burned skin peeled off me in 1976 taught me something about getting burned alive. It's no fun, belive me. I'm not afraid of propane, I fill 10 gallon tanks for my balloon every flight. But I don't do stupid shit like filling little bottles at home.