New propane goped really green as electric?

[Sheriff Jon]

Do bear in mind that while most flamable gasses are lighter than air, propane is heavier than air. So while you are out in the garage filling your little tanks, you are standing in a pool of combustible vapor. If your gas hot water heater is in the garage, the pilot light will be down in the vapors.

Ok, I'm being strident about this, but mabye that 8 days in the hospital getting the burned skin peeled off me in 1976 taught me something about getting burned alive. It's no fun, belive me. I'm not afraid of propane, I fill 10 gallon tanks for my balloon every flight. But I don't do stupid shit like filling little bottles at home.

Althouth it 'would' be a great selling point IF the 16 oz Propane canisters were easily and safely refilable at home by the end user, I don't think that anyone from GoPed or LEHR is even remotly suggesting that they are, or that it should be attempted. But people and especially those who like to tinker WILL figure out ways to modify and enhance their toys. Just look at the E-bike crowd :wink:

But now that the range figure has been revised, due to a leaky hose on the prototype from a poltry 10 miles per tank to "well over 20 miles per tank", Propane power is starting to sound like an idea worth considering 8)

 

[liveforphysics]

Do bear in mind that while most flamable gasses are lighter than air, propane is heavier than air. So while you are out in the garage filling your little tanks, you are standing in a pool of combustible vapor. If your gas hot water heater is in the garage, the pilot light will be down in the vapors.

Ok, I'm being strident about this, but mabye that 8 days in the hospital getting the burned skin peeled off me in 1976 taught me something about getting burned alive. It's no fun, belive me. I'm not afraid of propane, I fill 10 gallon tanks for my balloon every flight. But I don't do stupid shit like filling little bottles at home.

That sounds like excellent advise about the vapor being heavier than air, and the risks of doing it in the home.

I've never filled a propane bottle, and don't actually know what all would be involved in the process. I feel pretty safe filling Nitrous bottles in the home because it's not a flammable or explosive gas (until you get it to 500+degF at least).

You and Vanilla Ice both bring up very good points about the dangers of filling at home, and I agree it shouldn't be done by kids, and only done by adults outside with the right equipment and safety precautions and equipment. Thank you for the first-hand advise and input Dogman.

 

[liveforphysics]

I just checked some prices.

Propane can be purchased here in Seattle for $1.40-1.60/gal.

Propane is 4.24lbs/gal.

This means roughly $0.35 per lbs (1 x 16oz container fill)

If you get 20+ miles per $0.35 container, that works out to be $0.0175/mile of fuel expense.

That's pretty darn economical!

 

[v_tach]

Living in Florida, we have to deal with hurricanes now and again. Many of us Floridians have emergency electric generators. I converted my emergency generators over to propane several years ago because I got tired of dealing with aging gasoline, stabilizer additives, carburetor rebuilds, and fuel tank corrosion. Since the conversion, I haven't had a single maintenance issue with either of my generators. I can also store my propane supply indefinitely without having to worry about the fuel undergoing phase separation or some other storage related breakdown. Propane has its own particular considerations but as far as fuel for combustion engines, propane rocks as I'm concerned.

 

[swbluto]

I just checked some prices.

Propane can be purchased here in Seattle for $1.40-1.60/gal.

Propane is 4.24lbs/gal.

This means roughly $0.35 per lbs (1 x 16oz container fill)

If you get 20+ miles per $0.35 container, that works out to be $0.0175/mile of fuel expense.

That's pretty darn economical!

Yes, interesting.

I just ran some quick calculations on batteries and it seems like their long term per-mile costs might actually be on par with the price you quoted if considered "dead" at 85% SOC.

For this calculation, I basically assumed 30 Wh/mile (Would be about true at 20 mph on a standup scooter), and EVcomponents has cells at 3.2v*10AH = 32 Wh per 17$. For a 20 mile range, you're looking at 600 wh. That's roughly 600wh * (17$/32wh) ~= $320. The "true cost" will be something like $400 with charger and BMS, but the BMS and charger should be theoretically reusable assuming the MTBF is long enough, so those might be considered upfront costs. Anyways, assuming the pack has 1000 cycles before reaching 85%, that's a 20,000 mile potential range. $320/20,000 = .016/mile. With electricity at 10c/1000wh, that's like .3333 cents per mile which ups it to .0199/mile. Of course, if you keep the pack longer than 85% SOC, your per mile cost keeps going down ... and down.

There's a few fudge factors involved but it's nice to see they're pretty comparable. Also, the lifetime of Headway batteries remains unproven.

For gas scooters, I found a goped user report that a gallon of gas usually provided 100 miles. Assuming the cost of gas is ~$3/gallon, that's about 3 cents per mile.

Very interesting, but it seems like the long-term costs of electric scooters is less than gas ones assuming the battery is used frequently enough. For those that use is semi-moderately, like me, it seems that it might be sort of comparable.

The upfront cost of a propane scooter (and gas), though, definitely has the advantage over electric. It definitely seems cheaper than gas, though there seems to be some handling/refilling care/dangers that I wouldn't want to deal with(Or, rather, can't deal with since I rent inside an apartment). :|

 

[jag]

Different engine technologies have different sweetspots and "killer apps".

I thought the propane weedwhacker Northermike posted a picture of would be a good example of where propane excels. Gas weedwhackers are huge polluters. Propane cleans that up. And for the typical home owner it the weedwhacker is an occasional use device. Hence even if using single use cylinders the cost is not overwhelming. Plus propane won't gum up the engine when stored (e.g. though winter). A propane lawnmower might also be a good idea for similar reasons. I think my gas lawn mower is heavy enough so I would think twice before getting an even heavier electric one.

If I needed an occasional use scooter I would also consider a propane.

 

[Sheriff Jon]

Different engine technologies have different sweetspots and "killer apps".

I thought the propane weedwhacker Northermike posted a picture of would be a good example of where propane excels. Gas weedwhackers are huge polluters. Propane cleans that up. And for the typical home owner it the weedwhacker is an occasional use device. Hence even if using single use cylinders the cost is not overwhelming. Plus propane won't gum up the engine when stored (e.g. though winter). A propane lawnmower might also be a good idea for similar reasons. I think my gas lawn mower is heavy enough so I would think twice before getting an even heavier electric one.

If I needed an occasional use scooter I would also consider a propane.

I have a Neuton rechargable electric mower, and though it is physically smaller it is suprisingly light compared to my much heavier, suck the chrome off a trailer hitch, Hi-Vac Snapper 4 stroke mower. I got the Neuton mower because we have a fairly small front yard (only) and I got tired of the mess that the Hi-Vac made including sucking up and spitting out the newly planted parkway grass But the Neuton only has a 12" cutting swath and when overlapping passes it endes up taking me twice as long to mow the lawn. I ended up hiring a gardner, and now can sit on my ass even more 8)

 

[Papa]

Refilling the small disposable cylinders yourself is possible, but illegal in the US.

Correct.

"Do NOT refill", "49 u.s.c. 5124" (quoting the label on the bottle). If you get caught transporting a refilled, NON-refillable LPG bottle, especially if someone gets injured or killed, the Feds will come knocking; The penalty is up to $500,000 fine and five years imprisonment.

I cannot stress enough how dangerous it is for untrained people to fool with it. The small cylinders lack several safetey features present on your 5 gallon tank that prevent overfilling.

Most people will end up underfilling the small cylinder, but there is a trick for getting it full that I won't post here. The issue is you won't know when to stop filling the cylinder. If an overfilled cylinder gets warm, kabooooom.

Correct again.

It's important to point out that the "kabooooom" is NOT triggered by ignition (well, not initially), but by thermal expansion which is guarantied to rupture the container if the bottle is completely full of liquid, then allowed to increase in temperature. If there is ANY spark during the rupture OR a heat source nearby (such as your gas water heater), then you're likely gonna be 'toast'.

It's also important to mention, that propane is an excellent refrigerant. It boils at something like -33f. So, at room temperature, if liquid propane tags you in the eyes, there's a very strong possibility you'll lose your eyesight from instantaneous frostbite.

 

[vanilla ice]

Just to clarify, its illegal to transport refills, or to refill commercially. Its perfectly legal to do it at home for yourself. Its also still legal to do various other dangerous things to yourself at home right?? I should hope so.

I'm not sure how the "transport" part would apply on a moving goped..

 

[TylerDurden]

Thank you guys for the headzup on the bottle refill hazards. There sure is a lot of debate on the interwebs about it.

The info so far, is that small refillable bottles may be ordered through welding supply houses. My supplier thinks they can get them as small as 5lb.

Note to self: close valve on large tank before removing small bottle... especially when near the gas water heater.

 

[vanilla ice]

Its amazing how much gaseous propane comes from the liquid trapped in a 3 foot 4AN line. The only setup I would use is a ball valve attached to the propane adapter.. Right up near the can. This way you can weigh your fills without spraying propane everywhere between fills. My dumb ass had to figure this out the hard way but luckily nothing ignited! You should have seen it, I was spraying propane all over my buddy who was like 8 feet back. I thought it was pretty funny but he was not amused one bit.

Don't ask me where I got this, I don't remember. Just look for the 3 piece adapter so you can take it apart and put a line and valve in the middle. Don't get the one piece adapter.

 

[v_tach]

My local Camping World has refillable 5lb propane tanks.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I don't want to encourage anyone to break the law or do anything thats unsafe, but...

Since I'm certain a few enthusiasts might re-fill the tiny bottles, what could make them safer? if the main issue is having some airspace above the liquid so that warming the liquid by parking in the sun would prevent a burst in the bottle, perhaps have a second bottle in-line that has only gas?

Open an intermedate valve between the bottles, and fill them on a scale. Once liquid propane begins coming out the bottle-connecting valve, stop filling. There is a fill connection adapted onto only one side, so, one bottle is full of liquid and the other is filled with gas. Install a threaded cap on the vent valve port to prevent leakage.

The place where local propane bottles are filled is outdoors, and it has signs restricting open flames or smoking for a wide distance, this is because as liquid propane is filling the bottle, a bottles worth of gas is being vented (it could be captured during bottle-filling). The vent draws its gas from a vertical tube of a certain length that ensures when liquid comes out of it, there is still some airspace above it.

That being said, I'm certain any mishap in the garage would NOT be covered by home-owners insurance, and those guys will look for any reason to NOT pay for an expensive personal injury or home damage.

 

[vanilla ice]

You neeeeeed a scale, its the only way to go. I used to underfill also, to 3/4. If you do those two things and are careful I can't see how you would hurt yourself. But It _IS_ really a pita, like phs says you need to use temperature and gravity to do it well, and its slow. I can totally see something bad happening by mebbe somebody answering a phone call or going to cook some food while they wait for the fill.. and forgetting about it. If you stay there and watch the scale tick over to 3/4 full by weight, I can't see what would go wrong.

Even the little disposables have a pressure vent, but I'm not sure how well they would work with 100% liquid filled can. Maybe they work fine, anybody know? I did see them fizz a little when I used to refill my rusties. Anyway, 5 pounders sound like the way to go unless you're super ghetto.. Specially since they charge by weight, it should be cheap even though the refill company may not appreciate it.. same amount of labor for 10% of the dough! BTW how much are those 5 pounders??

 

[TylerDurden]

Weight: 9.85 lbs.
Dimensions: 8" dia. x 12 1/2".
Warranty: Mfr. one year warranty.
Mfg Part #: 10054

Club Price $54.99

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/5-lb-cylinder/16069

 

[liveforphysics]

Since I'm certain a few enthusiasts might re-fill the tiny bottles, what could make them safer? if the main issue is having some airspace above the liquid so that warming the liquid by parking in the sun would prevent a burst in the bottle, perhaps have a second bottle in-line that has only gas?

Use 1/8" poly-line with presto-lock fittings. Unlike nitrous, this is well inside the pressure rating of poly-line. With a very small light bottle and gas weight, a heavy -3, -4 line could easily be putting more force against the scale depending on how it's oriented than the weight of the fill gas. Snip off the last 1/4" of the line each time if you're the type who is paranoid about the little scratches a presto-lock puts on a line.

The most safe way is to start with a totally empty frozen bottle each time. If you're not going to do this, then you need to explicitly mark the empty/full weights onto the bottle as they read on your scale with your fill line attached. You will still need to freeze the bottle if it's empty or not.

A good digital scale.

A safe way to warm the mother tank. A thermostatically controlled nitrous bottle heater, or electric blanket would be a good safe way to do this. Do it outside and away from ignition sources.


I think almost nobody that buys little scooters would take these precautions though, and I imagine the standard method will be to directly thread the small bottle to the large one via a hard adapter, turn it upside down, wait 20mins, unhook and go for it. Fortunately, without freezing the daughter tank and heating the mother tank, it's really hard to get a high fill percentage (at least with nitrous), so they will likely be kept safe through ignorance in the fill method.

 

[Papa]

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

 

[vanilla ice]

a heavy -3, -4 line could easily be putting more force against the scale depending on how it's oriented than the weight of the fill gas.

Good point, this is one of the reasons I did 3/4 fills. You will never get a 100% accurate weight reading with a line attached.