New Puma motors on the way to teamhybrid

[Jozzer]

I've not gotten around to trying it with the older puma yet, but I suspect it wont work.
Whilst bench testing, I did notice that the scope shows a constant voltage whilst increasing throttle, rather than increasing voltage, I wonder if this means the new controllers have current throttle rather than voltage? (anyone got 1 running on an x'lyte to confirm this?) THis would bve a nice touch on the Puma especially, its quite hard to be light handed on the throttle since as soon as you increase the throttle the bike rushes to the new speed. If you hold half throttle the bike will just hold the corresponding speed with however many amps it takes to be there, whilst with an x'lyte its quite easy to hold low current at reasonable speeds, so the bike slows down unless you pedal. (I suppose because of the gearing advantage, and the fact the the motor is always working at much higher RPM).

Since I have yet to use the new controller on the road tho, I have nothing more to add (except I wish Kenny had just sent the analogue ones instead!)
If anyone wants to drop in with a x'lyte motor to test they are welcome :lol:

 

[solarbbq2003]

problem with bmc and some controllers is switching speed, is quite a small diameter motor in there, and rpms can go quite high, so over a given rpm some standard chip gets confused, like me most of the time,

some controllers have chip with limit to switching speed it can handle, i think that might be the problemo,
large disc works with puma older model see pic

if anyone comes across a website named zjhubmotor, it is my previous employee in china who stole alot of stock from me and is trying to sell it on internet ( has just copied info from my website).......taking him to court through chinese court system.........should be interesting......

 

[Ypedal]

oy.. it's a back-stabin world ain't it..

 

[Microbatman]

Is suspect that there may be increased competition in the controller market.

From what I can see, it looks as if Crystalyte has made a tremoundous contribution to the industry. I hope that they can help make this thing work. But BBQ may have something here about hardware issues.

But it looks like there may be some other players entering the arena.

One option would be to contact other compainies like Steven at Kelly Controller.

He could come out looking like a real hero if he were to solve this problem before Crystalyte.

 

[Jozzer]

That makes sense Solarbbq, it would explian the fault pretty much. Hopefully a software update is all thats required! One way or another I have faith that Kenny will fix it, or we will go back to the analogue version which still works fine. Dont know that he'd be a hero tho, especially since X'lyte hasnt even tried to sort a controller for the Puma yet

 

[solarbbq2003]

The number of controller manufacturers in china now is staggering, but it does seem to be much a case of copying what works and using cheapest mosfets around to keep prices low. Chinese market for ebikes and number in use now is also huge, so controllers are developing at a good pace. Seems now that 72volt systems are not too hard to find, certainly 60v systems no problem. Also I'm not 100% sure on this but I think there is a law in china that restricts systems to 48v which maybe one reason why higher voltage systems not developing very fast, but certaily motor powers/voltage are creeping up in china. I dont think is a major issue to get a controller that will work with puma at higher voltages and high rpm, just requires a fair bit of searching and testing and takes time. Also its not really in the interest of controller manufacturers to make one controller that will do a wide range of voltage/amps and work on 60/120 degree motors, certainly seems to be some work going on in sensorless controllers that can be used on lots of different motors rather than trying to match a controller to a specific bike.
A controller that could do from 12 or 24v up to over 100v( 150v maybe), maybe 40amps or so, can select 60 or 120degree, can vary max amps, vary low voltage cut off ( not necessary to have a low voltage cut off in my view), would be pretty ideal, there may be some issues running a higher amp/volt controller on low voltages ( not sure maybe efficiency problems?) would be pretty damn useful for alot of people, and certainly not techinically a problem to make ( I think!!!!)
There is now a range of controllers for higher amp / volt brushless motors which are not using mosfets ( not sure on how they work) which are being used with brushless motors for converting cars to electric, but they are very big controllers.
I think coming from the ebike controller side with small controllers and using good fets is a good way to go.
I tried to have some controllers made like mentioned above but probably unfortunate the controller factory I went with did'nt get much done in the last year on it, I'll keep chipping away might come up with something in future, but more likely kenny or others will progress much faster than I can get things done.

 

[Freddyflatfoot]

Really?
A variable voltage and amperage controller?
Sounds interesting!

 

[Jozzer]

Really?
A variable voltage and amperage controller?
Sounds interesting!

You can have that already from a crystalyte controller, either add a current limiting pot (See Fechters thread on how to mod x'lyte controllers), or use the "Cycle Analyst" to gain software controll of Current. Also they work at any voltage up to 100v..

 

[Jozzer]

New motor nicely laced into a KMX 24" rim. Radial on one side, crossed on the other for maximum dishing and drive strength by good old BoB the wheelbuilder.
I'll hopefully get it in a bike for testing today and will get some results (weather permitting)

 

[fechter]

That looks nice. Interesting spoke pattern. The half-radial pattern seems like a good idea, though I wonder if a full radial pattern would hold up in the long run.

 

[Jozzer]

yeah, we reckon a full radial wouldn't handle the drive power the puma puts down. But this way gives us the best of both worlds so to speak. I'll get a few miles on it and see how it copes.
Couldn't get it done today, I found that the new bigger axle is too thick for my freewheel removal tool, and needs milling out. Unfortionatly the machine shop next doors was closed for the day, and in any case its blowing a gale and raining cats and dogs. Roll on springtime!

 

[deecanio]

Hi mate,

nice looking wheel
interesting lace - i have to say fechter that my radial lace has been rock, i know its only ten rides but over some pretty rough terrain and not 1 loose spoke im not sure how much more power the new motor will lay down so maybe mines within the radial "limits" ??? whats the pro's and con's of crossed and radial lacing? which should i choose?
Anyway bobs work looking good joz, maybe he can get my dual wall on for me whilst im out of action ?? would be good to have matching rims and the standard one though tough is pretty ugly - whats the kmx rim??


cheers


D

 

[Jozzer]

Hi mate,

nice looking wheel
interesting lace - i have to say fechter that my radial lace has been rock, i know its only ten rides but over some pretty rough terrain and not 1 loose spoke im not sure how much more power the new motor will lay down so maybe mines within the radial "limits" ??? whats the pro's and con's of crossed and radial lacing? which should i choose?
Anyway bobs work looking good joz, maybe he can get my dual wall on for me whilst im out of action ?? would be good to have matching rims and the standard one though tough is pretty ugly - whats the kmx rim??


cheers


D

Hi Andi,

Cross laced is better for a drive wheel I believe, if you think about it the load is spread ahead and behind the contact patch, radial is stronger laterally (good for jumps?)
A mix potentially has the best of both.. I'll let ya know
The rim on the KMX is one of the stock ones I think, I have so many KMX rear wheels knocking about now I cant keep track :lol: If I wanted, I could have 3 KMX running within a week....anyone wanna come down for some Puma/KMX racing?

It looks like I might just get the 7 speed freewheel on the back, but only because the KMX has wide dropouts, and it doesnt matter if the rear wheel is slightly offcentre, since it doesnt have to follow the front wheels (like a 2 wheeled bike does).

Just got the spare packs from Mark Deec, I'll be working on them over the weekend all being well

Ciao,
Steve

 

[Jozzer]

Weeeeeeeeee..Yikes thats a fast hub @ 80v. no load speed is 60mph in a 24" wheel, i managed to get it to 45 or so before I ran out of road/courage. It would need a little more power to reach 50mph I think, but it would do it (i am running a 1p pack of A123's, the voltage sags a fair bit at 25c continous, with a 2 or 3p pack it would give it just the edge it needs to make it).
The motor plugged straight into an analogue x'lyte controller, stock wiring, with about the right no load current draw.
Strangely, I cant feel the difference accelleration wise between this 320rpm and the 260RPM motor, I expected noticicably less pull...

 

[Microbatman]

So you got the new puma working?

 

[Jozzer]

Yup, new Puma works with all the old analogue controllers it seems. 320rpm version is quite happy at lower voltages too, 48v will get you over 30 I reckon, 36v to 25mph. Maybe slightly more in a 26" (mines a 24" wheel)..

 

[Microbatman]

Jozzer

Thanks for the update!!!

I am sure we would all love to see some videos

Questions
#1 Can this motor handle burst of 2400watts for periods of 10 to 15 seconds?
40ampsx60volts=2400 watts or would that be too close to fry zone
40 amp controller is the 4110MOSFET one that I would plan to use.


#2 Any pictures of the wire to wire hookup between the motor and the Crystalyte controller? Do the wires match color as requested in the new specs?
#3 What is the reccommened controller. Is the 40 amp one too hot for this motor?

 

[Jozzer]

Hi,
I run my puma at a generous 40A and 80v and have had no problems, especially in this weather (10C or so). On a short run (2 miles), gunning it all the way, it barely even gets warm. THe x'lyte controllers from Mark should be direct hookup, and mine is direct hookup to one of Justins (ebikes.ca) 40A controllers (with 4110 mosfets).
Just bear in mind that you are running the motor way beyond its rated spec, and if you cook it's probably down to you. Keep an eye on temps, or to be sure, fit a thermostatic switch rigged to switch the e-brake.

I'll tip you all off when Mark gets word on the reworked controllers (I believe Kenny is working through his holiday to fix it for us all!)

 

[fechter]

An easier way to rig an overtemp safety would be a thermostatic switch tied to the hall wires inside the motor. You could either interrupt the power to the halls, or short it.
This way you wouldn't need to run any wires through the axle.

I'm not sure what a good temp would be, but the magnets can be damaged by 80-100C depending on type, so that would be a good ballpark.

I do like the idea of an actual temperature sensor that you can monitor the temp with too. There are some that work with two wires, and one of the two wires could be shared with an existing hall wire so you only need to stuff one more wire through the axle.

 

[Dee Jay]

I do like the idea of an actual temperature sensor that you can monitor the temp with too.

Need to add to my list of projects . . . *schemin' like a demon, rubbing hands*

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=46290&sid=6c0964fd4c4c505a166549a9a65b70e7#p46290

 

[Lowell]

Hi,
I run my puma at a generous 40A and 80v and have had no problems, especially in this weather (10C or so). On a short run (2 miles), gunning it all the way, it barely even gets warm. THe x'lyte controllers from Mark should be direct hookup, and mine is direct hookup to one of Justins (ebikes.ca) 40A controllers (with 4110 mosfets).
Just bear in mind that you are running the motor way beyond its rated spec, and if you cook it's probably down to you. Keep an eye on temps, or to be sure, fit a thermostatic switch rigged to switch the e-brake.

I'll tip you all off when Mark gets word on the reworked controllers (I believe Kenny is working through his holiday to fix it for us all!)

What is your continuous current draw at speed though? 40A on my upright bike with an X5 is over 50mph...

 

[Jozzer]

Hi,
I run my puma at a generous 40A and 80v and have had no problems, especially in this weather (10C or so). On a short run (2 miles), gunning it all the way, it barely even gets warm. THe x'lyte controllers from Mark should be direct hookup, and mine is direct hookup to one of Justins (ebikes.ca) 40A controllers (with 4110 mosfets).
Just bear in mind that you are running the motor way beyond its rated spec, and if you cook it's probably down to you. Keep an eye on temps, or to be sure, fit a thermostatic switch rigged to switch the e-brake.

I'll tip you all off when Mark gets word on the reworked controllers (I believe Kenny is working through his holiday to fix it for us all!)

What is your continuous current draw at speed though? 40A on my upright bike with an X5 is over 50mph...

Full power at full speed of course, same as the X5. However, I dont like to ride much above 35mph or so, the bikes not made for it, and it doesn't feel safe to ride at those speeds. I've reached 45mph on 40A however..
Riding at max speed under full power for any lenght of time would be precisely when you most need the temp sensor. Of course the X5 will take more power for longer, but only cos it weighs 3 or 4 times as much as the Puma and can store more energy.
However, since the Puma struggles much less at low RPM, and has to pull less weight too, it will probably be much less prone to overheating on hills/stopstarts.
You should try one Lowell and see how the bike feels a few KG lighter . Shame theres no X5 users near here to try a direct comparison..
STeve

 

[Lowell]

I'd like to try one, as soon as there's some sort of distribution network happening.

 

[Microbatman]

Any update on the Controllers?

Is Crystalyte able fix the ones that did not work?

Any other Controllers i.e. Kelley work on the motor?

How are things going?

 

[Mark_A_W]

Guys did this motor have an internal freewheel?

Brett has something similar now, but it doesn't have a freewheel inside....and I'm wondering if that really matters. I do like to pedal, and batteries do go flat...