Kottbullar
10 mW
Chilehed
Keep up updated as progress continues. This is an interesting thread!
Keep up updated as progress continues. This is an interesting thread!
Newb planning a touring build
- Thread starter chilehed
- Start date
Chalo
100 TW
For real reliable touring range and ability to get there every time, I would avoid mid drives. Too many opportunities for show stopping problems.
I think a small lightweight geared hub that cruises at close to your unassisted speed (so probably low voltage rather than high) combined with a 15A controller and a battery with hours worth of full load power, would be a great recipe for cycle touring at cycle touring pace. If you're happy with your speeds and trip durations now, there's no need to add unnecessary weight and cost tooling your bike up to go much faster than you would usually go, at the expense of range.
36V x 30Ah is a little over 1 kWh of battery, and if it's composed of high energy density cells (because specific power demands are low) it need not be very heavy.
I think a small lightweight geared hub that cruises at close to your unassisted speed (so probably low voltage rather than high) combined with a 15A controller and a battery with hours worth of full load power, would be a great recipe for cycle touring at cycle touring pace. If you're happy with your speeds and trip durations now, there's no need to add unnecessary weight and cost tooling your bike up to go much faster than you would usually go, at the expense of range.
36V x 30Ah is a little over 1 kWh of battery, and if it's composed of high energy density cells (because specific power demands are low) it need not be very heavy.
Sorry, I've gotten held up by a number of things so work's been slow. Not quite ready to shoot the color but getting close, I did paint and body work a long time ago and am kinda picky about prep. Freewheel's gotten held up in shipping (stupid USPS stuff). Haven't actually pulled the trigger on a motor yet, I figure patience will allow me to make the most informed purchase I can.
Such as? I'm familiar with managing driveline load limits.
I'll think about this, thanks.
I thoroughly respect @Chalo opinion as he has way more experience than I do but in the 9,000 miles (5 years) I've run a BBSHD it has been flawless with no issues. But, I do have to replace chain and freewheel every season or two where I don't have to do that with my 1,000 watt generic hub drive. Then again, the hub drive doesn't see nearly the mileage of the BBSHD. The chain/freewheel on the BBSHD has never broken but starts to skip under high load when worn. I have cracked the aluminum Leckkie chain ring on some incredibly steep hill climbs when in first gear due to the miss-alignment and high stress. The chain ring issue was never a problem with the stock steel chain ring. I do prefer the programming flexibility of the Bafang software vs. the KT-LCD3 of the hub drive.
Probably many solutions are possible but i think for long range touring a low power hub motor is not bad. Two years ago i added geared bafang hub motor in the front wheel (it's a 24V 250W rated motor, but powered with 36V), paired with 350W rated controller. The battery is 10S7P or 10S8P (don't remember exactly). The bike is normal 'city-style' with steel frame, battery installed on the rear rack.
And it appears it's quite good for long rides with pedal assist. With pedaling i can easily make 100km roundtrips, however with dropping battery voltage the speed also goes down a little towards the end. The motor doesn't heat up at al, the controller also stays cool the whole time. Battery weight is around 3.5 kg, motor - i suppose around 2kg, but the front wheel also has thicker spokes so it adds some weight too. The controller is pretty lightweight, around 300g. So in the end the bike didn't become much heavier and the level of assistance provided is just right for going 30-35 km/h. And it still looks like a bike, conversion is pretty non-invasive and i like the two-wheel drive (it helps a lot when i go thru sand bogs)
And it appears it's quite good for long rides with pedal assist. With pedaling i can easily make 100km roundtrips, however with dropping battery voltage the speed also goes down a little towards the end. The motor doesn't heat up at al, the controller also stays cool the whole time. Battery weight is around 3.5 kg, motor - i suppose around 2kg, but the front wheel also has thicker spokes so it adds some weight too. The controller is pretty lightweight, around 300g. So in the end the bike didn't become much heavier and the level of assistance provided is just right for going 30-35 km/h. And it still looks like a bike, conversion is pretty non-invasive and i like the two-wheel drive (it helps a lot when i go thru sand bogs)
So I'd be considering a torque sensing hub drive that can operate at a continuous 250-350 watts over a range of 3 - 20+ mph (40 - 520+ wheel RPM) and fit on forks that are 100 mm wide.
What's available that fits that? Remember, my rides include pretty hefty grades that go on for miles. On return trips I can coast at well over 20 mph for a solid half hour.
What's available that fits that? Remember, my rides include pretty hefty grades that go on for miles. On return trips I can coast at well over 20 mph for a solid half hour.
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Getting closer. The parts finally arrived from South Salem Cycleworks, it was a bit of a cluster but Michael kept at it (it wasn't his fault) and made sure they came through. I'd certainly recommend him to anyone looking for parts.
In the meantime I cleaned things off and got the fork straightened. The clearcoat took FOREVER to fully harden, I had the frame hanging for at least two weeks (including a couple of days baking in the sun) but it was still soft enough to take an impression from the chamois I wrapped it in when I put it on the stand. I didn't clamp it very hard, either.
I hadn't realized how whacky the chainline is. The main rings are lined up with the smallest freewheel sprockets, but the granny is so close to the frame there's no way to move the crankset inboard. And the 44 tooth ring is only ~7mm from the frame, so even with a single ring on the motor I'd be pretty much stuck. I don't think I want to risk destroying my new chain and freewheel trying those mountain rides on a 44 with this vintage bike. I'll start taking the hub motor option more seriously.
More will be revealed.
In the meantime I cleaned things off and got the fork straightened. The clearcoat took FOREVER to fully harden, I had the frame hanging for at least two weeks (including a couple of days baking in the sun) but it was still soft enough to take an impression from the chamois I wrapped it in when I put it on the stand. I didn't clamp it very hard, either.
I hadn't realized how whacky the chainline is. The main rings are lined up with the smallest freewheel sprockets, but the granny is so close to the frame there's no way to move the crankset inboard. And the 44 tooth ring is only ~7mm from the frame, so even with a single ring on the motor I'd be pretty much stuck. I don't think I want to risk destroying my new chain and freewheel trying those mountain rides on a 44 with this vintage bike. I'll start taking the hub motor option more seriously.
More will be revealed.
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Just an FYI - I have broken a couple of chain rings due to high loads when in my lowest (and most miss-aligned) gear.
Lekkie rings failing on BBSHD
Any one else having trouble with 52T Lekkie rings failing on a BBSHD? I've had two of them fail now both in the same place. The first at about 2,000 miles and the second after another 4,500 miles. I even turned down the amps to 25 after the first one failed but it didn't seem to help much. I've...
endless-sphere.com
Copy that, thanks. In keeping with the counsel of @Az. and @Chalo, I'm composing an email to Whoosh right now.Just an FYI - I have broken a couple of chain rings due to high loads when in my lowest (and most miss-aligned) gear.
Lekkie rings failing on BBSHD
Any one else having trouble with 52T Lekkie rings failing on a BBSHD? I've had two of them fail now both in the same place. The first at about 2,000 miles and the second after another 4,500 miles. I even turned down the amps to 25 after the first one failed but it didn't seem to help much. I've...
I'd like to pick your brain about that more if the time comes. I presume part of that includes a battery pack of greater than the 48V they sell with their kits?
Not exactly. The trick is to convince manufacturer like Tongsheng or Bafang to put the right sticker on motor they sell. So for example you ask them to put 250W sticker on 750W motor. Why? Because 250W motor is legal and 750W is not.
Some people prefer to buy 750W motor and put right sticker themselves, but it is illegal. Sticker must be put on by manufacturer. As a private person you have small chances for that, but larger distributers are more convincing.
Eventually you can buy just 250W motor and controller which is able to provide 500W or 750W and hope you wont burn motor. There is no legal limit on amount of power used by controller.
PS I use standard 48V battery I bought from PSW
I think some more specificity on the grades, length, and your required speeds for the climbs would help narrow it down. For example:
I've got a bikepacking setup utilizing a gravel setup that usually carries around 25~30lbs when loaded. It has a front Bafang G310 motor (around 6lbs. dressed) in a 584 rim. I'm a pretty weak rider with only a ~220W FTP, and up climbs while touring, I'm typically at about 150W at the cranks. With the G310, climbing a mild hill (e.g. 4% for 2 miles) with 500W to get up the hill quickly works fine, while climbing a more serious hill on my way to Santa Cruz (8 miles at 8% average) limits the continuous motor power to around 150W (mechanical output) in order to not exceed a comfortable motor temperature (90°C) for longevity. That puts the climb time in line with enthusiastic club riders.
wturber
1 MW
@chilehed On the topic of motor ratings, you may want to read Justin L.E.'s rant on the topic. Ratings numbers are a bit fluid and manufacturer's use this to their advantage. Some of this is inherent in the nature of an electric motor. But legislatures have generally (in the U.S. for sure) done a poor job of taking that into consideration.
ebikes.ca
Futility of Motor Power Ratings
"There's no such thing as a rated watt!" Read here for why we don't advertise a simple power rating for the motors we sell. Also, have a look at our Youtube video where Justin talks about the power to propel bicycles in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALde6zhLPs0">"School of Watts"</a>.
ebikes.ca
Fair enough. One of my favorite rides has a 2,000 foot climb over 12 miles: 4% for several miles, 6% for one mile and a 30% grade for a couple of hundred yards (not kidding: it's up the driveway leaving my FIL's house and usually I'd make it less than halfway before walking it. Tough way to warm up!).
In the steep sections I drop down to the small 30 tooth front ring, one of the big 22/26/32 rears, and go pretty slow. I'm not in a hurry, it took me a couple of hours to get to the top prior to my knee issues.
If you know western North Carolina, these are rides from Lake Lure to either Asheville, Hendersonville or Black Mountain.
Damn! 8 miles at 8%? Turns out I'm a piker! Sounds like more than enough motor for me, but being Bafang it's cadence sensing, right?
Will do.
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wturber
1 MW
You may find it interesting and helpful to wind your way through Justin's account of his cross-Canada ebike trip. Of course, this was over ten years ago and some things would surely be done differently today. Like I'd bet he wouldn't use a LiPo battery pack.
Cross-Canada by Ebike
Hey guys, as mentioned on our homepage last week I'm planning to ride an electric bicycle right across Canada from Vancouver all the way to Halifax now, about 6500+ km, and want to meet up with as many of you along the way as possible. I actually left last Tuesday for a trial run along Vancouver...
endless-sphere.com
wturber
1 MW
How would a front hub motor sense torque? You normally sense the pedal torque at the bottom bracket. That signal is fed to some control circuitry that then sends a throttle command to the motor controller. You can use any motor with torque sensing. For instance, I used the Cycle Analyst and the Fischer AG Torque Sensing Bottom bracket they currently have on sale for my cargo bike. It uses a Stoke Monkey mid-drive, but the torque sensing could be applied to a front or rear hub motor just the same.
Now if your bottom bracket is unusual in some way, then I can see how finding the right torque sensing bottom bracket could be a problem.
And not that you asked, but I'm inclined toward having the hub motor on the rear wheel unless there is some strong reason not to.
Well, yes, I was being lazy and didn't want to tap out "torque sensing BB and geared hub motor that I can fit into my narrow spacing" on my phone.
Thank you!
I think I'd prefer it as well, but I've gathered that my 110 mm freewheel hub poses some issues and I don't want to risk trying to widen the frame. I just emailed Grin.
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wturber
1 MW
Isn't it 120mm or 126mm on the back? How badly do you want to use this frame? I bet there's a way to put some freewheel threads on the disc brake side of a front motor. You'd then run the motor in reverse mounted on the back.
Alternatively, I bet you can narrow many hub motors by machining off the disc brake mount and then doing some machine work on the axle.
I don't know if either of these ideas would work, but it might be worth exploring if you really, really, really want to use that frame.
I really, really, really wanted to have a right side drive Stoke Monkey mid-drive on my cargo bike. So I figured out how to get a reverse thread freewheel mount onto the motor.
Before
After
wturber
1 MW
Take a look at this motor that Grin sells. There's a diagram in the Specifications section. It appears to me that the 135mm spacing is achieved by using spacers. If that's right, then using different spacers and trimming down the axle width might work.
ebikes.ca
eZee Rear Standard Wind
eZee v2 Standard Wind (~8.1 rpm/V) Rear Hub Motor with Freewheel Fitting. Includes the L1019 Cable with Thermistor and Built-In Speed Sensor.
ebikes.ca
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What the... ??!? How the FRICK did I look at it so many times and still manage to get that measurement wrong? You're right, it's 126mm.
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So its been a while, and as I contemplated this whole thing I kept at getting the bike set up. Dumped the drop bars for butterflies, Dia-Compe DC189 brake levers, flat pedals, Dia-Compe ENE stem mount shifters, and panniers that I couldn't pass up based on brand and condition (even though not adequate for truly long trips). Waiting for delivery of a set of Tektro R559 dual-pivot calipers, and I'm probably gonna pick up a saddle along the lines of the Brooks Carved. I've had it out for a few 10-20 mile rides, I like the direction and I think it looks pretty good.
I finally sprung for the Fischer AG BB at Grin, had some time to mock it up a bit today and it looks like I can get it to fit without too much trouble, just drill a hole where the empty casing is stuck in the photo. I'm thinking that the eZee front standard wind, the Baserunner Z9 controller, and the EMVe3 52V triangle battery would be good picks, but am about to send another email to Grin asking what they think. I'm leaning toward Velocity Dyad rims, and will probably get a 36 spoke Velo Orange rear hub while I'm at it.
I'll probably wait a few months to pull the trigger because ski season's coming up soon, but I'm looking forward to how this might open up my touring options. And yes, I really, really want to use this frame because I really, really love this bike.
I finally sprung for the Fischer AG BB at Grin, had some time to mock it up a bit today and it looks like I can get it to fit without too much trouble, just drill a hole where the empty casing is stuck in the photo. I'm thinking that the eZee front standard wind, the Baserunner Z9 controller, and the EMVe3 52V triangle battery would be good picks, but am about to send another email to Grin asking what they think. I'm leaning toward Velocity Dyad rims, and will probably get a 36 spoke Velo Orange rear hub while I'm at it.
I'll probably wait a few months to pull the trigger because ski season's coming up soon, but I'm looking forward to how this might open up my touring options. And yes, I really, really want to use this frame because I really, really love this bike.
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Kottbullar
10 mW
Yes, ski season is coming up. That's when I get my best project work done!
Watching your progress, I'm a few steps behind you. Am thinking Jones bar instead of butterfly or others. What made you to Butterfly?
Watching your progress, I'm a few steps behind you. Am thinking Jones bar instead of butterfly or others. What made you to Butterfly?
I just thought it looked like I'd like it better than the other options, and it was only $25 at VO so I figured it was a cheap experiment.
Spring is here and my ski season’s over; if you’ve never skied Jackson Hole, change that.
I ended up ordering a Grin eZee front hub, V6 torque arm, 48V-19Ah downtube battery, L10 controller, V3 cycle analyst, and assorted brackets and cables and such. Velocity Cyad rims are on order.
I’ve got the bike pulled back apart for headset replacement, and that’s turning out to be a bit of a pain because the stack height is really short and the fork turns out to be JIS. I’m probably gonna turn it down in a lathe so I can fit an ISO crown race, and since the 10mm flats on the motor axle won’t quite fit into the 9.4 mm dropouts I’ll have to figure out a good way to widen them a bit.
I ended up ordering a Grin eZee front hub, V6 torque arm, 48V-19Ah downtube battery, L10 controller, V3 cycle analyst, and assorted brackets and cables and such. Velocity Cyad rims are on order.
I’ve got the bike pulled back apart for headset replacement, and that’s turning out to be a bit of a pain because the stack height is really short and the fork turns out to be JIS. I’m probably gonna turn it down in a lathe so I can fit an ISO crown race, and since the 10mm flats on the motor axle won’t quite fit into the 9.4 mm dropouts I’ll have to figure out a good way to widen them a bit.
