Newbie looking for ebike options

[mlody11]

Hi all! I am completely new to e-bikes and I'm looking for help from the people who have seen it all.
I am looking to convert my Fuji Absolute 3.0 (has 700c wheels) into an e-bike to commute one way and charge it at work and home. I've been doing a lot of research and there are so many options...

The ideal bike for me would be something that can;
- Go 30 miles one way ( few hills...)
- Average 30 mph which means it should be able to exceed that on long stretches. (trying to simulate the time it takes for me to sit in traffic for 1 hr but instead ebike it)
- Ideally the kit would cost around ~1500 (less is better but I don't mind spending more if I won't regret it later)
- I don't want to spend too much time setting stuff so making my own batteries is not an option (plus I've seen too many horror stories of fires... one is enough to scare)

I am proficient in basic electronics and pretty handy so I don't mind piecing together. I've pretty much come up with 3 options...
1 - a BMC v2s motor w/ 25amp controller and a 15ah 48v battery = 1688 (pros - very light... but may break at high speeds?)
2 - a Phoenix II 4840 cruiser w/ 40amp controller and a 20ah 48v battery = 1672 (pros - more reliable, more power?... but heavy as compared to bmc)
3 - (the extreme) a Phoenix II 7240 w/ 40amp controller and a 16ah 72v battery = 2K (pro - guaranteed speed and distance practically... but expensive and bulky(not that weight matters at that point...)
4 - (the budget) Phoenix II 3640 cruiser w/ 40amp controller and a 20ah 36v battery = 1460... (not sure of the performance of this because there are is so much conflicting info)

What do you all think? Hoping to get some guidance here

 

[speedmd]

Hi Mlody11

I don't think your going to average 30 with less than something like the 7240 if you have hills/ head winds to deal with. You will most likely need a much larger battery also for 30 miles at those speeds. 20 -25 mph gets you much further and more suited for the bike your planning on using. Also that bike will be torture at 30 mph for 30 miles unless the roads are real smooth. Suspension or fatter tires at least would be much better. Your getting into a serious commuting distance and I would look for a good cross country, freeride or downhill type bike. Something with longer wheel base and plush suspension. Don't need lots of travel or the latest models. You can pick them up a few years old in good shape for not much money. Don't think you will regret it. Enjoy the journey into ebikes.

 

[mlody11]

Thanks for the advice! So let's say I try for 20-25, what would you recommend?

 

[majornelson]

I would recommend a kit from Paul at em3ev.com. He can help with advice but if your commute has only modest hills, consider:

8T MAC motor on the rear
9 FET controller
18.5 AH triangle battery @48v

If your budget affords it, a Cycle Analyst and fast charger.

I think the whole package with shipping will be less than $1,500.

I have this kit on a Trek 8.4 DS hybrid bike. If I keep the speed limited to 21 - 22 mph, I can get over 60 miles on the pack. It can cruise easily at 28 mph but with reduced range (my guess would be close to 35 miles). Peak speed around 35 mph but not sustainable.

Paul/cell_man/em3ev.com is consistently recommended for the type of setup you're considering. It's relatively easy to install and is plug and play.

Good luck.

 

[wesnewell]

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations and you will waste your time and others. Thank you.

I wouldn't recommend anything without knowing what country you're in.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

If you want 25 mph with 30 mile regular commute on non-hilly terrain, forget about a geared motor. You need the high end speed/power/RPM's/reliability of a direct drive hub motor. No gears to wear out. Check out Golden Motors they have a website for direct sales and they ship complete kits...preplaced hubs with the motor and built in controller; a plug and play harness, cruise control and throttle..batteries. This is China's best selling motor, and you can trust ordering from them. There's some advice given without knowing your location!

 

[biohazardman]

If you want 25 mph with 30 mile regular commute on non-hilly terrain, forget about a geared motor. You need the high end speed/power/RPM's/reliability of a direct drive hub motor. No gears to wear out. Check out Golden Motors they have a website for direct sales and they ship complete kits...preplaced hubs with the motor and built in controller; a plug and play harness, cruise control and throttle..batteries. This is China's best selling motor, and you can trust ordering from them. There's some advice given without knowing your location!

I personally prefer the geared BMC v2 to the Golden motor dd have both. The BMC rides like a bicycle and the motor is not noticed much at 8+ or so LBS. The GM DD is near 16LBs and is most definitely noticed as you ride. I do seem to be stuck with a near 30 MPh commute though as my latest controller, of six months, surges at lower speeds. No problem with gears yet although I did upgrade them and the wires when I was checking for internal problems a few years back. The clutch had separated so put in the V3 style as it was available then. I have 10K on the motor 6K or so on these version 3 green gears no troubles. I live in a temperate climate here in the NW USA and there are plenty of hills so the motor climbs well and does not overheat as it might elsewhere because of its small size. Lots of things to take into count as you decide what is best for your area, climate, terrain, and style of riding.

 

[dogman dan]

I just think you will not be able to afford, or like carrying enough battery to do that.

Best case, perhaps a 72v 20 amps controller, and maxed out you pull about 1500w, and get 35mph with a typical winding direct drive motor. That's 72v 25 ah of pack you will need to carry to go the 30 miles. That heavy, you might prefer 40 amps, and need to pack a full 30 ah of battery.

If you carry lico, or limn, that's still at least 30 pounds of battery or more. It's no fun, and might even be dangerous to carry that much cargo on an ordinary bike and go 35 mph. You start seeing the frame look like it's made from wet spaghetti. What's fine carrying that load at 20 mph, get's sketchy at 35, unless your frame is exceptionally strong. It could work with a very good cargo bike built for the load, but your budget is not even half what it might take to get it built.

Here is where we say it. 1---2---3--- Have you looked at a small gas motorcycle or scooter? ( in your budget window) Or-- and electric motorcycle. One with a frame able to safely carry a 50 pound battery. (way over your budget)

However, by slowing to 20 mph top speed, and taking two hours to get there, you could easily do it on an affordable ebike. But 4 hours a day commuting to work would just be too much. You just aren't going to get what you want for the price you want to pay, except as a small motorcycle. It's just outside the window of what is practical for commuting unless you like the ride so much that 4 hours a day in the saddle is too short for you.

It's not impossible to build what you want, just nearly impossible to do it on your budget. Battery alone will eat all you have in mind. Here is a picture of my version. You can't buy the bike, I had to make it from two bikes welded together. It's long, and can carry 50 pounds safely at it's top speed of 33 mph. It has full suspension, so it tolerates the potholes and other hazards at 30 mph, even loaded. It has an expensive monster of a motor, but two smaller motors would do the same thing. To go 30 mph for 30 miles, it needs about 40 ah of 48v battery. Lots of wind drag, so typically I ride it 18 mph. I simply cannot afford enough battery to go 30 mph for 30 miles. Though it can carry 50 pounds, it definitely rides nicer below 30 mph once loaded that much.

 

[dogman dan]

Longtails work best for hauling big loads, and the long wheelbase helps avoid the tank slapper high speed wobble that plagues an overloaded regular bike.

Here is another longtail you might consider. I'm not sure if they still produce it. I have seen this thing ride beautifully gas powered on the race track. Yeah yeah, frocking stinker. But this thing flies with the Subaru motor on it. Super strong frame, would handle the battery cargo no problem if you made an electric one.

http://www.designlogicbikes.com/products.html
Da bomb is the bike I refer to.

 

[mlody11]

Thanks all for the advice. It seems almost as if what I worried about is practically true; the technology simply isn't there for a long commute.

Getting a scooter or equivalent is not a good option for me because I already have a motorcycle and the goal isn't simply to get rid of gas costs, its to do that and not have to take the roads because of the traffic. So, eliminate traffic is the primary goal.

That said, maybe I should revise the goal a bit... I guess I'm not looking for something to take me from point A to B without pedaling. It is to supplement my pedaling to reduce effort and/or give higher speeds. In fact, I would be fine with a motor that can't even propel me from the start and could only be used when under way to increase my speed on the bike.

I can already do the 30 miles trip in 2 hours under human power so an e-bike that can do that for me is not what I'm looking for. I am looking for an e-bike to take my 15mph propelling speed and turn it into something like 25-30 mph propelling speed. 30 mph on long straight flats. Also... I live in Chicago if anyone is curious about the terrain (it is very flat... only hills are when passing over major intersections on trail bridges).

Majornelson's recommendation seems most logical to me seeing that it can cruise at 28mph for about 30 miles and with the geared motor is should be the lightest setup. What if I stepped the voltage down from 48v to 36v, would I loose top speed? I would certainly loose distance, right?

Or... what if I ran a MAC motor on 60v with 15ah? I'm guessing that would be overkill for the motor...

 

[mvly]

Since you are talking about phoenix and such I presume you are somewhere in the states.

Here is my experience:
Going 30mph requires around 40Wh/mile. This takes into account hill. Unless you have a super light or have great aero. 40wh/mile is pretty conservative and is a good estimate.

Going 30 miles requires 1200Wh minimum. I would add 150-200wh just to be safe and to take into account braking and accelerating. So essentially you need 1400Wh battery.

Assuming 72V battery, this means you need 20Ah. However that depends on if you are using lico or other chemistry. If you are using lico, then you need 25Ah because you never fully drain lico battery. If you are using life, then you can get away with 20Ah.

But regardless, 20s25Ah lico or 24s20ah life or sinilar chemistry, you are looking at 30-40lbs maybe even 45lbs.

In terms of cost, 20s25ah lico will cost you at least $1000 even if you go the cheap route. Good life battery will also cost you dearly.

So right there, you pretty much blow through $1K of your budget. I would recommend go slower or pay more.

As for the best setup, I recommend BMC V2T or something equivalent and run it at 72V. You should max out at 30mph and should be reliable in the long run. If you absolutely do not want to do maintenance on your bike, then I recommend getting HT3525 and running it at 72V. This is the Phoenix II torque version.

I wouldn't go 48V for anything requiring 30mph because you are running close to the current limit of the wires controller and probably the motor considering your weight requirement.

That being said, know that you need to charge the battery too and that will coat some money also.

Finally I don't recommend lico or Lipo as some people call it for anyone because of the danger potential. Get life or other chemistry.

 

[dogman dan]

I think you misunderstand just a bit. The technology is definitely there. It's the laws of physics that are not changing enough to make our hearts desire a reality.

The big one is just wind resistance. You aren't appreciating just how much more power it takes to go 30 mph vs 20 mph.
On the typical upright bike with panniers to carry batteries or your rain gear etc, 400w will just get you to 20 mph. A tiny puff of wind, now it's 600w to go 20 mph. 30 mph, is going to take 1000w, and 35, to get to an average 30 mph including the stop signs, is going to take 1500-2000w. It's exponential. You can pedal up about 200w for one hour nonstop, most people much less. So once you are looking at 2000w is needed, your 200w stops meaning much of the total.

Hmm, my battery just went from 700watthours does it , to I need 2000 wh. It went from 15 pounds to 45. It went from the size of a shoebox, to the size of a suitcase. Cost of it went from $600 to $1800.

There's the damn problem, and it ain't going away soon. Batteries haven't gotten much smaller or lighter in the last 5 years. I'm not holding my breath for better myself. Better batteries would help, but you just want too far too fast for doing it cheap and easy.

But if you change your goal to 25 mph top speed, then things get a lot better. You will use about 800w, and if you pedal up 200w of it, now you can provide 25%. 600w for an hour and a half, means you need 1000 wh of battery, not 2000. Now you can carry that battery in a pair of good panniers, and afford it. Your travel time will be better than pedaling alone, but won't drop all the way to one hour trip.

The revised plan is much easier, get any typical medium power hubmotor. Could be a Mac, BMC, or Bafang bpm in gearmotors, or in direct drive motors, a 28mm rotor motor such as a 9 continent, or other similar motors in many of the cheapest kits. You will need at least 48v 20 ah of battery, and will have to milk it some to make it. So coast all you can, pedal hard all the way, pedal the first 20 feet from stops, then engage the motor, etc. Since coasting will help, I suggest get the gearmotor. A 10t Mac from Em3ev would do it fine. Get a 48v 20 ah battery that is split into two sections for panniers. You will need a cycleanalyst, to learn to really hypermile. Budget, about $1500 all in, good rack, the bags, etc.

Try that, and see how it goes. If you just have to increase your speed, then you double your battery, use the same motor since it will reach 30 mph, and likely your ride will go lots better if you upgrade to some kind of longtail, or even a recumbent trike. Just something better able to carry up to 40 pounds of cargo and then go beat hell out of it on the road at 30 mph.

 

[RLD70]

I think you misunderstand just a bit. The technology is definitely there. It's the laws of physics that are not changing enough to make our hearts desire a reality.

The big one is just wind resistance. You aren't appreciating just how much more power it takes to go 30 mph vs 20 mph.
On the typical upright bike with panniers to carry batteries or your rain gear etc, 400w will just get you to 20 mph. A tiny puff of wind, now it's 600w to go 20 mph. 30 mph, is going to take 1000w, and 35, to get to an average 30 mph including the stop signs, is going to take 1500-2000w. It's exponential. You can pedal up about 200w for one hour nonstop, most people much less. So once you are looking at 2000w is needed, your 200w stops meaning much of the total.

Hmm, my battery just went from 700watthours does it , to I need 2000 wh. It went from 15 pounds to 45. It went from the size of a shoebox, to the size of a suitcase. Cost of it went from $600 to $1800.

There's the damn problem, and it ain't going away soon. Batteries haven't gotten much smaller or lighter in the last 5 years. I'm not holding my breath for better myself. Better batteries would help, but you just want too far too fast for doing it cheap and easy.

But if you change your goal to 25 mph top speed, then things get a lot better. You will use about 800w, and if you pedal up 200w of it, now you can provide 25%. 600w for an hour and a half, means you need 1000 wh of battery, not 2000. Now you can carry that battery in a pair of good panniers, and afford it. Your travel time will be better than pedaling alone, but won't drop all the way to one hour trip.

The revised plan is much easier, get any typical medium power hubmotor. Could be a Mac, BMC, or Bafang bpm in gearmotors, or in direct drive motors, a 28mm rotor motor such as a 9 continent, or other similar motors in many of the cheapest kits. You will need at least 48v 20 ah of battery, and will have to milk it some to make it. So coast all you can, pedal hard all the way, pedal the first 20 feet from stops, then engage the motor, etc. Since coasting will help, I suggest get the gearmotor. A 10t Mac from Em3ev would do it fine. Get a 48v 20 ah battery that is split into two sections for panniers. You will need a cycleanalyst, to learn to really hypermile. Budget, about $1500 all in, good rack, the bags, etc.

Try that, and see how it goes. If you just have to increase your speed, then you double your battery, use the same motor since it will reach 30 mph, and likely your ride will go lots better if you upgrade to some kind of longtail, or even a recumbent trike. Just something better able to carry up to 40 pounds of cargo and then go beat hell out of it on the road at 30 mph.

Ive learned alot from dogman and others here on ES and as dogman pointed out in this post, wind resistance will be the #1 problem for any ebike trying to go faster than 20 mph let alone with more than 20 lbs of batteries. Try riding a heavy ebike in very windy conditions for proof of this fact. Another is the choice between a geared hub and the dd hub. I have both types a MAC 10T and the GM PRO 901 hub and I find myself riding with the MAC more than the DD motor because I get better distance with it and both motors run about the same top speed on 48v with the DD going about 1.5 mph faster so no real differences there. Speed makes all the difference in the world using an ebike as you will learn and going roughly 20 mph will be the best bet for the distance that you want to go. I get 40+ miles from my 48v 20A Life pack at 20 mph or so and that includes going up some minor hills and such with no peddling involved. No such luck however when there are steeper hills to climb as you have to help the motor out. There is a trade off however if you use the DD motor and the controller has regen braking enabled since you regain some battery power back while regen is working and it really helps if its a steep hill that youre descending down. I have a couple of routes that I regularly ride that I wouldnt use the DD on because of the hills involved even going 20 mph or so simply because the battery wouldnt make it home because of these hills. The MAC gets me home with no problems on these routes. Bottom line is this, either hub will do the job that youre trying at the slower speed with a 48v 20A life pack but realize that the geared hub will get you a little better distance overall than the DD hub will get you. All of the hubs should last you many years as long as you take care of them and dont abuse them to the extent that they break on you.

 

[wesnewell]

There are lots of ways to go 30 miles (or a lot more) at 30mph without spending more than $1000 total. Play with the this;
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/

 

[mlody11]

What about a mid-drive? Has anyone had the experience with either a cyclone or a GNG setup? I'd assume these systems are more efficient because they use the gears of the bike but I also assume they wear on the drive more too. I guess what I'm really looking for is a system that can maintain a constant higher speed on straight runs. So many options, yet so little...

 

[majornelson]

Here is the Trek I mentioned with the MAC 8T and the 18.5 AH 48v battery in the triangle. (Note that when the battery is fully charged, it is about 58v to start.) I have since added Schwalbe Big Apples to it. Really tough, grip the road and smooth out the bumps. Recommended...

Also, I always peddle the bike which may explain the range I'm getting. Finally, 25 mph (vs. closer to 30 mph) will definitely improve your range and feels like a reasonable compromise over time.

 

[dogman dan]

Yes, you can go 30 mph pretty cheap. But charging a large pile of lico at your workplace would not be my number one choice. Maybe fine if your workplace is a welding shop, but not so great if it's an office full of people.

Furthermore, he asked for a 30 mph average speed over a 30 mile commute. That's going to require at least 35 mph cruise. Not what I'd do on a $100 bike, and a motor hopped up to triple it's rated watts.

So I'd damn sure recommend a better, more stable, likely more expensive bike for that.

If he is willing to slow down to about 25 mph average speed, then a 1000w, 48v system can damn sure do it a hell of a lot cheaper, if he doesn't have a stop light every half mile. Still a lot of battery to carry, but half as much needed as with a 72v system hitting 35-40 mph at times.

I'd still say you will spend a thou on the battery and charging system all in. You'll need a second charger at work for example. But the bike and motor kit can be done for $500, starting with a decent used mtb. Nothing wrong with the inexpensive Yes 48v 1000w kit Wesenwell recommends all the time. It's strong, fast, priced good, and ships from the USA. I just think he'll still need about 25 ah of battery, preferably lifepo4 because it should last twice as long as lico or limn. One plan that could work ok would be a 48v 20 ah lifepo4, then a reserve tank made from 5 ah of lico.